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Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:

How do they do that?

The answer was in your previous post before you edited and partially in this one.
It allows to stay further away from it and use your own range advantage (for most vehicles).

And whatever the size of the board is, you can still deep strike 9 inches away. So if you have no room behind your screens, how does the smaller board size help in this case ?

Terrain rules does help though.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/03/30 11:25:33


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Compare an MM attack bike before and after.

1 shot, probably at BS4+ because you moved, versus 2 shots, potentially at BS 3+. You get 2.666 times as many hits. (Minuses to hit obviously exist - but then they existed in 8th, which made it even worse.)

Then you have the melta change, and this pops to 3.25 times as much - probably more arguably, as I'm not sure its as simple as saying an average of 5.5 vs 4.5. (The tails significantly favour the new system, as you can't score a 1 or 2, and you can get a 7 or 8).

Things like Hellbrutes and MBH are comparably inefficient way of getting MMs - at 125/140 for 1. By contrast MM attack bikes at 55 points. Tactical marines with an MM, at 110 points, would seem very inefficient - suffering the penalty for moving, and moving slowly.

In my opinion anyway, board size matters less than how the objectives work. If your opponent completely backlines, okay you will struggle to get into melta range (and they may screen out DS etc, DS being quite slow anyway, especially if you end up going second). But if they do backline like that, you just go claim all the mid-board scenarios and run away on the primary.

In practice people have to throw stuff into the middle - usually quite important stuff. Barring a weird skew, there's almost always something worth shooting a 24" MM at.

Really though, the meta trick you are seeing is people trying to cut out as many MMs as they can get away with - while hoping others keep them in to ensure all the meta stuff MMs crush doesn't make it through the rounds. Then you can have a list which does the business, but has an edge over lists bringing more MMs. Which is potentially quite interesting in a way - but its undoubtedly a meta skew which isn't much fun if you can't do anything about it.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:

Agree, but there are plenty of MM units which aren't great or even outright bad: Helbrutes, MBH, devil dogs and the Gladiator Valliant come to mind. I also don't think I've ever seen a MM on a tactical squad.
So there is definitely more to it than just MM = OP.


Of course. It is a combination of factors, but ultimately some MM platforms are super prevalent and far too effective.

It is the same problem with "blocking units", such as admech mechaponies and deathkorps chemponies; outliers in terms of durability.

It is always the same thing, they release units that are obvious outliers at what they do, and competitive warhammer skews the lists for those units.

It creeps into "casual" play by virtue of giving those fielding them big advantages (just better units), whether it was intentional or not.

This could be avoided with some basic mathhammer on their end, no need for extensive play testing if something is 2-3 times the effectiveness per point than equivalents in other armies.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Are MM's to good? is other Anti-tank to gakky?

If you nerf MM's are things like Mortarion, that MM's are an answer to just going to steamroll everything instead?

How many AT guns should it take to kill a generic T7 3+ 12W tank?

Space Marines are flocking to the MM because the alternatives are either to unreliable or have been nerfed by stacking defensive buffs on their prefered targets.

The addition of -1 damage as a defense means that the previous way of high RoF Damage 2/3 weapons no longer work.
And stuff like Lascannons are way to unreliable.

I think the MM is much more what anti-tank weapons should be and I would prefer Lascannon like weapons to go to damage 3+D3 to make them more reliable and bring them above high RoF D2/3 weapons.

And yes as a result of that some tanks and monsters might need a few more wounds, but not yet more defensive layers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/30 11:53:05


 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:

In my opinion anyway, board size matters less than how the objectives work. If your opponent completely backlines, okay you will struggle to get into melta range (and they may screen out DS etc, DS being quite slow anyway, especially if you end up going second). But if they do backline like that, you just go claim all the mid-board scenarios and run away on the primary.

In practice people have to throw stuff into the middle - usually quite important stuff. Barring a weird skew, there's almost always something worth shooting a 24" MM at.

Yes of course but at least you would have the option to trade some presence on objectives for a bit of safety.
Usually, these conversations end up comparing lascans and MMs. MMs lose nothing with closer positions implied from missions and smaller boards since they have to get into the "danger zone" anyway to be in range (or just deal with heavy stuff coming close to them). On the other hand, stuff like lascan which is supposed to trade damage for range, would like to be able to stay as far away as possible but we cut out something like 10 inches from the table's diagonal.

I think the issue is many fold. The current setup of the game advantages meltas, some platforms got too much of a benefit from new MMs rules (and in this particular case I think MM attack bikes could use a slight bump in points comparatively but it's kinda hard to do since HB bikes don't seem to be an issue right now and if you nerf MMs, you nerf even the platforms that aren't good), lascan are comparatively crappy (but if you buff them, you don't deal with the perceived issue with MMs) and most vehicles are still probably not efficient enough at tanking damage.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/30 12:30:20


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





dhallnet wrote:
Tyel wrote:

In my opinion anyway, board size matters less than how the objectives work. If your opponent completely backlines, okay you will struggle to get into melta range (and they may screen out DS etc, DS being quite slow anyway, especially if you end up going second). But if they do backline like that, you just go claim all the mid-board scenarios and run away on the primary.

In practice people have to throw stuff into the middle - usually quite important stuff. Barring a weird skew, there's almost always something worth shooting a 24" MM at.

Yes of course but at least you would have the option to trade some presence on objectives for a bit of safety.
Usually, these conversations end up comparing lascans and MMs. MMs lose nothing with closer positions implied from missions and smaller boards since they have to get into the "danger zone" anyway to be in range (or just deal with heavy stuff coming close to them). On the other hand, stuff like lascan which is supposed to trade damage for range, would like to be able to stay as far away as possible but we cut out something like 10 inches from the diagonal of the table.

I think the issue is many fold. The current setup of the game advantages meltas, some platforms got too much of a benefit from new MMs rules (and in this particular case I think MM attack bikes could use a slight bump in points comparatively but it's kinda hard to do since HB bikes don't seem to be an issue right now and if you nerf MMs, you nerf even the platforms that aren't good), lascan are comparatively crappy (but if you buff them, you don't deal with the perceived issue with MMs) and most vehicles are still probably not efficient enough at tanking damage.
The new points update lists each option per unit no? No reason they can't make only the attack bike MM more expensive.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
The new points update lists each option per unit no? No reason they can't make only the attack bike MM more expensive.

Yup it does, I forgot about that. So I guess GW could do it if they changed their mind again about weapons' costs. Which would probably be the best option in the case of attack bikes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/30 12:37:09


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





dhallnet wrote:

Curious about what was the Chap on bike used for (prob +1 to hit) ?


Litany of Faith (Aura), Canticle of Hate (Aura), Master of Sanctity, Warlord, Wise Orator

   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
dhallnet wrote:

Curious about what was the Chap on bike used for (prob +1 to hit) ?


Litany of Faith (Aura), Canticle of Hate (Aura), Master of Sanctity, Warlord, Wise Orator

Ok thanks. Makes sense if you use it with the terminator block, the bike threw me off but it was probably for the +1T and +2W.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/30 13:27:41


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





dhallnet wrote:
Ok thanks. Makes sense if you use it with the terminator block, the bike through me off but it was probably for the +1T and +2W.


Just a bit more move flexibility.

Honestly I'd never engage that block of terminators if I could avoid it. Let them all sit there in their unkillable-ness.

   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Pennsylvania

 Jidmah wrote:
Agree, but there are plenty of MM units which aren't great or even outright bad: Helbrutes, MBH, devil dogs and the Gladiator Valliant come to mind. I also don't think I've ever seen a MM on a tactical squad.
So there is definitely more to it than just MM = OP.

I actually think this highlights the problem. MMs on cheap, super mobile or deep striking platforms are the issue, not just the weapon itself. Basically, don't raise the point cost of the weapon across the board, just raise the point cost of the weapon for the units that are able to abuse it.

   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
Ok thanks. Makes sense if you use it with the terminator block, the bike through me off but it was probably for the +1T and +2W.


Just a bit more move flexibility.

Honestly I'd never engage that block of terminators if I could avoid it. Let them all sit there in their unkillable-ness.

Since the chap is on bike, the list lose the option to DS it so "DSing" the termies is probably off too (could use commanding oratory to use canticle of hate after DS), so I guess it's avoidable, yes, depending on missions.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Battlesong wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Agree, but there are plenty of MM units which aren't great or even outright bad: Helbrutes, MBH, devil dogs and the Gladiator Valliant come to mind. I also don't think I've ever seen a MM on a tactical squad.
So there is definitely more to it than just MM = OP.

I actually think this highlights the problem. MMs on cheap, super mobile or deep striking platforms are the issue, not just the weapon itself. Basically, don't raise the point cost of the weapon across the board, just raise the point cost of the weapon for the units that are able to abuse it.

Agreed. Increase the price of multi-meltas for units like attack bikes that benefit from them too much, but leave them alone for units that don't like tacticals. There's nothing wrong with an anti-tank weapon being good at killing tanks, but some units are just too good at using them to pay the same price as everything else. Now, can we talk about what actually makes this list tick? Any loyalist chapter can use MM attack bikes.

Daedalus81 wrote:Honestly I'd never engage that block of terminators if I could avoid it. Let them all sit there in their unkillable-ness.

Depends on what they're doing "just sitting there". I ask again: Do we know what secondaries this player was taking?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Depends on what they're doing "just sitting there". I ask again: Do we know what secondaries this player was taking?


Nada, but there's only so much space they can cover. I'd wager at least the DA babysitting objective plus oath and then whatever is relevant to the opponent. He was maxing out just about every game.

He played an exact mirror of his list and won 100 to 47. I'm curious if he went first there or what caused such a blow-out. That other DA player went 3-2 - losing to DG. This guy did not play DG, however.

   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Battlesong wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Agree, but there are plenty of MM units which aren't great or even outright bad: Helbrutes, MBH, devil dogs and the Gladiator Valliant come to mind. I also don't think I've ever seen a MM on a tactical squad.
So there is definitely more to it than just MM = OP.

I actually think this highlights the problem. MMs on cheap, super mobile or deep striking platforms are the issue, not just the weapon itself. Basically, don't raise the point cost of the weapon across the board, just raise the point cost of the weapon for the units that are able to abuse it.

Agreed. Increase the price of multi-meltas for units like attack bikes that benefit from them too much, but leave them alone for units that don't like tacticals. There's nothing wrong with an anti-tank weapon being good at killing tanks, but some units are just too good at using them to pay the same price as everything else. Now, can we talk about what actually makes this list tick? Any loyalist chapter can use MM attack bikes.

Daedalus81 wrote:Honestly I'd never engage that block of terminators if I could avoid it. Let them all sit there in their unkillable-ness.

Depends on what they're doing "just sitting there". I ask again: Do we know what secondaries this player was taking?


With all those bikes and talon masters? The RW one for sure.

Also, this list works because it manages to put a 4++ save on said MM bikes, while having good and fast scoring elements in the other bikes and a solid block of heavy infantry to hold the center and score primary + Oath of the Moment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/30 13:50:26


 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Gadzilla666 wrote:Any loyalist chapter can use MM attack bikes.

He uses MMs attack bikes because as such he doesn't break his RW outrider detachment and thus his 3x3 bikes have obsec.
The attack bikes could be replaced by a bunch of other stuff in marine lists, they aren't THAT good.

Spoletta wrote:
With all those bikes and talon masters? The RW one for sure.

Also, this list works because it manages to put a 4++ save on said MM bikes, while having good and fast scoring elements in the other bikes and a solid block of heavy infantry to hold the center and score primary + Oath of the Moment.

He needs to advance to get 4++, seems impractical with MMs.
And that RW secondary seem impractical too, as long as you don't interpret "has moved 12 inches" as "count as having moved 12 inches". But that might be why there are a few asking for clarifications on this and I would bet for marine/da supplement specific secondaries too.
You also can't take the RW secondary + Oath, they are both "no mercy, no respite" secondaries.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/03/30 14:10:42


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Bikes scoot forward turn 1 to claim the middle.
Terminators walk up and stand there turn 2. Yes you ignore them, grz. You now don't take that objective ever.

command squad claims home objectives and stays there. if there is only 1 the other can grab a midfield.

When the rest of the army gets to the middle the bikes can harass the enemy instead. Same deal for Talonmasters.

Its a 9th edition list. Tough stuff stand on objectives. MM's are there to remove whatever is a threat.

Being able to take away obsec means you can take objectives from Hordes, which is how this list beats them I imagine.

Winning the mirror could be a number of things, Better luck, better skill.\

Secondaries are the DA one to hold an objective the entire game, Oath cause your terminators are in the center and maybe WWSWF or something else non-interactive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/30 14:08:21


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Dont those attack bikes get a 4++ for advancing for no additional point cost? Plus attack bikes were already really good and even competing with eradicators on the table top?

Do you realize how good a 4++ is?

remove obsec? What is the purpose of playing this game if you can remove obsec from my scoring units?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Xenomancers wrote:
Dont those attack bikes get a 4++ for advancing for no additional point cost? Plus attack bikes were already really good and even competing with eradicators on the table top?

Do you realize how good a 4++ is?

remove obsec? What is the purpose of playing this game if you can remove obsec from my scoring units?


...maybe I"m a dingus, but wouldn't advancing with a unit with a multi-melta...prevent you from firing said multi-melta?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





dhallnet wrote:
You also can't take the RW secondary + Oath, they are both "no mercy, no respite" secondaries.


I do wonder how often people miss this for other secondaries.

   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Depends on what they're doing "just sitting there". I ask again: Do we know what secondaries this player was taking?


Nada, but there's only so much space they can cover. I'd wager at least the DA babysitting objective plus oath and then whatever is relevant to the opponent. He was maxing out just about every game.

He played an exact mirror of his list and won 100 to 47. I'm curious if he went first there or what caused such a blow-out. That other DA player went 3-2 - losing to DG. This guy did not play DG, however.

That's what I'm thinking as well. Terminators go for the "babysitting objective" and Oath, the rest of the army goes for whatever is best vs the current opponent. If you commit enough resources to stop any one of those elements you'll have a hell of a time disrupting the other two.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
You also can't take the RW secondary + Oath, they are both "no mercy, no respite" secondaries.


I do wonder how often people miss this for other secondaries.

Seem pretty simple to not miss as long as you have the books.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





I've yet to see someone try the babysit with a termie squad and win the game. You can't just leave all those points chilling on a back objective.

As other made me notice though, you can't get the RW secondary with Oath and the list doesn't get WWSWF (the usual alternative to Oath), since in that case the attack bikes would be equiiped with 2 MM and an HB.

Which means that the list goes DOTW, EOAF and one between killing and mission secondary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/30 14:38:05


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Dont those attack bikes get a 4++ for advancing for no additional point cost? Plus attack bikes were already really good and even competing with eradicators on the table top?

Do you realize how good a 4++ is?

remove obsec? What is the purpose of playing this game if you can remove obsec from my scoring units?


...maybe I"m a dingus, but wouldn't advancing with a unit with a multi-melta...prevent you from firing said multi-melta?

Yes ofc it would. Does it matter though if you are on their objective with 12 wounds T5 4++ save with objective secured removing objective secured from opponents? It is just an option. I am sure most the time they aren't advancing.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

Ravenwing have an ability that during devastator doctrine they can advance and fire weapons as if they didn't advance. (Still -1 to hit though).

So yes, turn one attack bikes can move 20" and still fire 6 multi melta shots. But, they are hitting on 4s, (down to 3 hits), most likely wounding on 3s (down to 2), with an invul save+other defensive buffs usually only 1 attack goes through. I really dont believe attack bike multi meltas to be the achilles heal to tanks or have absolutely busted damage output. They are REALLY GOOD, but not insane damage dealers, imo. That only comes when you compare their points and survivability. Overall, plas interceptors are certainly a more lethal threat.


I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine.

"Be aware that the 'I buy models I like, and then discover that they're absolutely useless and I need to toss them and buy something completely different' is a core part of the 40k experience." - AnomanderRake

My hobby blog__ Hell Raised Regiment Three - Link in Bio
 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





I'm happy to see melta fixed in 9th, but maybe tack 5pts more onto the MM. Not to nerf it as such, but to make players weigh options for AT.
RW/DW combos probably do seem annoying for other marine players with similar units due to additional non costed rules, but for those who play DA, we've wanted DW to be viable for sooooo long. We can look back through posts here suggesting how to make terminators match the fluff and be more tanky. Well, this is how. Now lets just make the rule more universal for other chapters in 10th. I did like the suggestion of just giving them access to the transhuman strat, however.
The list is still super spammy, but that's tournaments for you. The lynchpin in the list is the Talonmaster with obsec trait. Its also the reason he took the 2 DW command sqds (to protect TM since a single casualty from any of the bike sqds makes the TM targetable)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/30 14:47:06


 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




I think the list can deal with any "battlefield supremacy" secondary, including "stubborn defiance", you don't have to babysit an objective in the back of the table, you could pick one in the center and score oath at the same time (prob a bit too ballsy for tournament play though and wouldn't be able to max out so probably a terrible idea after all).
He could also score stubborn defiance with one of his bikes squad, you don't have to use terminators to score, just a dark angel unit with obsec.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/03/30 14:57:12


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





dhallnet wrote:
Seem pretty simple to not miss as long as you have the books.


Yea, but it'd be pretty easy to pull a fast one one people who aren't familiar. Even the ITC Battles app lets me pick from the same category.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/30 14:49:23


   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spoletta wrote:
I've yet to see someone try the babysit with a termie squad and win the game. You can't just leave all those points chilling on a back objective.

As other made me notice though, you can't get the RW secondary with Oath and the list doesn't get WWSWF (the usual alternative to Oath), since in that case the attack bikes would be equiiped with 2 MM and an HB.

Which means that the list goes DOTW, EOAF and one between killing and mission secondary.
You don't put the terminators on the back objective. thats what the command squad is for. You put the termi's on a center objective.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
I've yet to see someone try the babysit with a termie squad and win the game. You can't just leave all those points chilling on a back objective.

As other made me notice though, you can't get the RW secondary with Oath and the list doesn't get WWSWF (the usual alternative to Oath), since in that case the attack bikes would be equiiped with 2 MM and an HB.

Which means that the list goes DOTW, EOAF and one between killing and mission secondary.
You don't put the terminators on the back objective. thats what the command squad is for. You put the termi's on a center objective.

The command squad doesn't have objective secure so it can't score stubborn defiance (it can hold a back objective though, or DS to score scramblers or whatever, it's pretty versatile, maybe too much).

 Daedalus81 wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
Seem pretty simple to not miss as long as you have the books.


Yea, but it'd be pretty easy to pull a fast one one people who aren't familiar. Even the ITC Battles app lets me pick from the same category.


Ah well, yeah sure, can happen with a lot of stuff though, particularly with the codexes adding more complexity (or rather, things to know).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/30 14:52:32


 
   
 
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