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Tittliewinks22 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
@Tittliewinks22 If you took RP roll after the second volley has procced via GCSO, then:
1. how many times do you resolve RP? Once or twice? then,
2. how many casualties do you take into consideration for the first roll? second roll? If they only roll once, do you consider the total casualty? or up to the first volley only? Subsequently then,
3. if, due to specificity of GCSO's targeting restrictions, two units with RP suffered casualties. Do you take the total casualties across the two units? each unit individually?
4. What if the first attack was split, with only half targetting the closest unit?

Side bar - I'm going to call the next RP related is going to be explodes! vs. RP.

No idea, thats a whole new can of worms. From the impression im getting from people is that RP trumps any other rule ever in exsistance, if you have a rule that lets you do something after an attack, too bad RP first... the thing is, RP is not worded as an amendment to resolving attack sequence. There won't be any definate resolution until it gets faq'd, but I suspect the new ork book will have dropped by then and changed CGSO to be something more akin to Castellan robots to double shots rather than shoot a second time

But... it's still the same can of worms, no? If you're claiming that RP happens after resolving additional shooting attack via GCSO, then you need to be able to explain what happens in the cases above, otherwise the rule simply doesn't work RAW?

Evidently, the attack that comes before GCSO and the attack from procced GCSO are two separate attacks. If we were to resolve RP only once, are we resolving RP 'each time' the unit attacks?

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

Even discounting the word "Immedietly"both RP and CGSO are conditional abilities and they trigger their condition at the exact same time. So you should use the SEQUENCE rules to choose the order in which these two abilities happen.

No, they dont happen at exactly the same time. The sequencing rule gives two examples when this is true. Its ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. If the rules in question have similar wordings, they would happen at the same time. This is not true for RP and GCSO.

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

 p5freak wrote:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

Even discounting the word "Immedietly"both RP and CGSO are conditional abilities and they trigger their condition at the exact same time. So you should use the SEQUENCE rules to choose the order in which these two abilities happen.

No, they dont happen at exactly the same time. The sequencing rule gives two examples when this is true. Its ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’.

Those two examples are not an exhaustive list, they are meerly two of the many possible outcomes.

If the rules in question have similar wordings, they would happen at the same time. This is not true for RP and GCSO.

Similar wording is not needed though, all that matters is that "two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" It does not require them to have "similar wordings"

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

Even discounting the word "Immedietly"both RP and CGSO are conditional abilities and they trigger their condition at the exact same time. So you should use the SEQUENCE rules to choose the order in which these two abilities happen.

No, they dont happen at exactly the same time. The sequencing rule gives two examples when this is true. Its ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’.

Those two examples are not an exhaustive list, they are meerly two of the many possible outcomes.

If the rules in question have similar wordings, they would happen at the same time. This is not true for RP and GCSO.

Similar wording is not needed though, all that matters is that "two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" It does not require them to have "similar wordings"

And until GW clarifies when exactly two or more rules happen at the same time we only have those examples to go with. Anything else is speculation.

End of Attacks is not the same as shooting has finished. It's not the same time period so no sequencing

nosferatu1001 wrote:
End of Attacks is not the same as shooting has finished. It's not the same time period so no sequencing

It is according to core rules.

This is what "shooting" is in core rules:

When a unit shoots, select targets then resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

These are the steps for resolving an attack:

MAKING ATTACKS
Attacks are made using ranged or melee weapons. Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together. The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time:
1. HIT ROLL
2. WOUND ROLL
3. ALLOCATE ATTACK
4. SAVING THROW
5. INFLICT DAMAGE

Once damage has been inflicted, shooting has ended.

If there is a period of time between inflict damage and "end of shooting" that RP happens. Please show me in the rules. Otherwise this is the correct way to play.

Sequential operation =! scheduled operation.

So you've made them the same, and then failed to quote a rule supporting such.
End of making attacks is not the end of shooting. You have to prove they are the same, as you're making the positive assertion.

The rule as construed, due to its lack of specificity, does provide two very close valid conclusions. However, that doesn’t mean they’re both equally applicable. It is up to the users of the rule to analyze and evaluate the possible meanings of the text and apply the most sound conclusion – otherwise, permissive rulesets just simply ceases to function because it does indeed rely on, to a certain degree, user’s input of common sense, reading comprehension, & critical thinking no matter how much one tries to deny that fact with statements like “that’s not what the rule says” or “show me where in the rulebook says to do so.”

One main flaw exists in this line of argument: “they both happen after attack” is not synonymous to “they both happen at the same time.” They merely share the same trigger, but that does not automatically/naturally/necessarily lend to the conclusion "they must be resolved at the same time". This conclusion is logically true upon the premises “everything that occurs between attack and whichever step that comes after attack all occur at the exact same moment in time.” However, this last premises is not substantiated by the rulebook (it might be true, it might not be true - we don't know! All we know is that the rulebook does not explicitly states so.) and therefore can be considered as a false premises. Therefore, the conclusion “they both happen at the same time” is a valid, but unsound deductive conclusion.

Note:

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

The sequencing rule doesn't care if they have the same trigger - it only cares when they need to be RESOLVED at the same time.

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

Even discounting the word "Immedietly"both RP and CGSO are conditional abilities and they trigger their condition at the exact same time. So you should use the SEQUENCE rules to choose the order in which these two abilities happen.

No, they dont happen at exactly the same time. The sequencing rule gives two examples when this is true. Its ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’.

Those two examples are not an exhaustive list, they are meerly two of the many possible outcomes.

If the rules in question have similar wordings, they would happen at the same time. This is not true for RP and GCSO.

Similar wording is not needed though, all that matters is that "two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" It does not require them to have "similar wordings"

And until GW clarifies when exactly two or more rules happen at the same time we only have those examples to go with. Anything else is speculation.

The timing of any given rule is all that is needed to figure out if two or more rules happen at the same time. No need for clarification from GW.

For example Tremor Shells, an Adeptus Astartes Stratagem is used "in your Shooting phase, when selecting a target for a THUNDERFIRE CANNON model".

Rotate Ion Shields, a Imperial Knights Stratagem, can be used "when an enemy unit targets an IMPERIAL KNIGHTS VEHICLE"

Neither of these are used ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’, but they can be used at the same time.

No speculation needed.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

Even discounting the word "Immedietly"both RP and CGSO are conditional abilities and they trigger their condition at the exact same time. So you should use the SEQUENCE rules to choose the order in which these two abilities happen.

No, they dont happen at exactly the same time. The sequencing rule gives two examples when this is true. Its ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’.

Those two examples are not an exhaustive list, they are meerly two of the many possible outcomes.

If the rules in question have similar wordings, they would happen at the same time. This is not true for RP and GCSO.

Similar wording is not needed though, all that matters is that "two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" It does not require them to have "similar wordings"

And until GW clarifies when exactly two or more rules happen at the same time we only have those examples to go with. Anything else is speculation.

The timing of any given rule is all that is needed to figure out if two or more rules happen at the same time. No need for clarification from GW.

For example Tremor Shells, an Adeptus Astartes Stratagem is used "in your Shooting phase, when selecting a target for a THUNDERFIRE CANNON model".

Rotate Ion Shields, a Imperial Knights Stratagem, can be used "when an enemy unit targets an IMPERIAL KNIGHTS VEHICLE"

Neither of these are used ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’, but they can be used at the same time.

No speculation needed.

False. Tremor shell timing is when selecting a target. Rotate Ion Shield timing is when the target has been selected. Two different timing. (at the moment of vs after the moment)

i.e. You can't use the tremor shell stratagem after having selected the target per RAW. You can't use rotate ion shield before a shooting attack has been declared against it per RAW.

 skchsan wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

Even discounting the word "Immedietly"both RP and CGSO are conditional abilities and they trigger their condition at the exact same time. So you should use the SEQUENCE rules to choose the order in which these two abilities happen.

No, they dont happen at exactly the same time. The sequencing rule gives two examples when this is true. Its ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’.

Those two examples are not an exhaustive list, they are meerly two of the many possible outcomes.

If the rules in question have similar wordings, they would happen at the same time. This is not true for RP and GCSO.

Similar wording is not needed though, all that matters is that "two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" It does not require them to have "similar wordings"

And until GW clarifies when exactly two or more rules happen at the same time we only have those examples to go with. Anything else is speculation.

The timing of any given rule is all that is needed to figure out if two or more rules happen at the same time. No need for clarification from GW.

For example Tremor Shells, an Adeptus Astartes Stratagem is used "in your Shooting phase, when selecting a target for a THUNDERFIRE CANNON model".

Rotate Ion Shields, a Imperial Knights Stratagem, can be used "when an enemy unit targets an IMPERIAL KNIGHTS VEHICLE"

Neither of these are used ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’, but they can be used at the same time.

No speculation needed.

False. Tremor shell timing is when selecting a target. Rotate Ion Shield timing is when the target has been selected. Two different timing. (at the moment of vs after the moment)

i.e. You can't use the tremor shell stratagem after having selected the target per RAW. You can't use rotate ion shield before a shooting attack has been declared against it per RAW.

You have misquoted. The rule isn’t the past participle, it says “when an enemy unit targets” not has been targeted, so is the present tense. This is exactly the same time as “when selecting a target”.

Aash wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

Even discounting the word "Immedietly"both RP and CGSO are conditional abilities and they trigger their condition at the exact same time. So you should use the SEQUENCE rules to choose the order in which these two abilities happen.

No, they dont happen at exactly the same time. The sequencing rule gives two examples when this is true. Its ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’.

Those two examples are not an exhaustive list, they are meerly two of the many possible outcomes.

If the rules in question have similar wordings, they would happen at the same time. This is not true for RP and GCSO.

Similar wording is not needed though, all that matters is that "two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" It does not require them to have "similar wordings"

And until GW clarifies when exactly two or more rules happen at the same time we only have those examples to go with. Anything else is speculation.

The timing of any given rule is all that is needed to figure out if two or more rules happen at the same time. No need for clarification from GW.

For example Tremor Shells, an Adeptus Astartes Stratagem is used "in your Shooting phase, when selecting a target for a THUNDERFIRE CANNON model".

Rotate Ion Shields, a Imperial Knights Stratagem, can be used "when an enemy unit targets an IMPERIAL KNIGHTS VEHICLE"

Neither of these are used ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’, but they can be used at the same time.

No speculation needed.

False. Tremor shell timing is when selecting a target. Rotate Ion Shield timing is when the target has been selected. Two different timing. (at the moment of vs after the moment)

i.e. You can't use the tremor shell stratagem after having selected the target per RAW. You can't use rotate ion shield before a shooting attack has been declared against it per RAW.

You have misquoted. The rule isn’t the past participle, it says “when an enemy unit targets” not has been targeted, so is the present tense. This is exactly the same time as “when selecting a target”.

I guess I have been playing that all wrong then. I guess I should've presently targeted the knight, waiting for my opponent to burn the stratagem, then promptly 'past-participle-ly' switched the target to another unit unaffected by the stratagem - after all, I'm not supposed to "past-participle-ly" target things when targeting things, because the rules don't say that "when selecting a target" =! "when the enemy targets". Am I getting this right?

 skchsan wrote:
False. Tremor shell timing is when selecting a target. Rotate Ion Shield timing is when the target has been selected. Two different timing. (at the moment of vs after the moment)

i.e. You can't use the tremor shell stratagem after having selected the target per RAW. You can't use rotate ion shield before a shooting attack has been declared against it per RAW.

You are incorrect. What I said is true.

"when selecting a target" and "when an enemy unit targets" Is the same time.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
End of Attacks is not the same as shooting has finished. It's not the same time period so no sequencing

It is according to core rules.

This is what "shooting" is in core rules:

When a unit shoots, select targets then resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

These are the steps for resolving an attack:

MAKING ATTACKS
Attacks are made using ranged or melee weapons. Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together. The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time:
1. HIT ROLL
2. WOUND ROLL
3. ALLOCATE ATTACK
4. SAVING THROW
5. INFLICT DAMAGE

Once damage has been inflicted, shooting has ended.

If there is a period of time between inflict damage and "end of shooting" that RP happens. Please show me in the rules. Otherwise this is the correct way to play.

On this logic, RP happens at the same time the next unit is selected to shoot, and is therefore sequenced with it. This would also mean that Crazy Gun Show-offs also occurs at the same time the next unit is selected to shoot and is sequenced with it, meaning that you could, say, choose to resolve your next unit's target selection before rolling to see if the Flash Gitz shoot again, allowing you to target something that's a valid target at that time, then have the Flash Gitz shoot it again and your enemy pulls models that put the unit out of range or line of sight...but your shots from the next unit still go through, because the targeting has already occurred.

The fact that this is obviously not how things work should be a good clue why your position on this is wrong. RP occurs after a unit makes its attacks, which is before it finishes shooting.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
False. Tremor shell timing is when selecting a target. Rotate Ion Shield timing is when the target has been selected. Two different timing. (at the moment of vs after the moment)

i.e. You can't use the tremor shell stratagem after having selected the target per RAW. You can't use rotate ion shield before a shooting attack has been declared against it per RAW.

You are incorrect. What I said is true.

"when selecting a target" and "when an enemy unit targets" Is the same time.

No. "When selecting a target" happens during the process of choosing a target. "When an enemy unit targets" is after the targeting step has been completed.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
False. Tremor shell timing is when selecting a target. Rotate Ion Shield timing is when the target has been selected. Two different timing. (at the moment of vs after the moment)

i.e. You can't use the tremor shell stratagem after having selected the target per RAW. You can't use rotate ion shield before a shooting attack has been declared against it per RAW.

You are incorrect. What I said is true.

"when selecting a target" and "when an enemy unit targets" Is the same time.

So then by sequencing rule, I will ask my opponent to play rotate ion shield stratagem first because it happens at the same time (thus eligible for sequencing), then depending on who he uses the shield on, I will select my target as to avoid attacking the unit with the stratagem active (because why deal with something that has +1 invul, right?). Then, I can always scare him to burn his strat before I declare my target. This way, the knights player can only use the strat to attempt to redirect incoming attacks rather than a proactive damage mitigation.

Clearly this fulfills the requirements for "when enemy unit targets", right?

I don't think that's how sequencing works. You both have to declare you're using the stratagems at the time the unit is targeted; as the player whose turn it is, you get to decide which order they resolve in (which doesn't actually matter), but you don't get to go back and undo your choice to use the strat or to target the unit after their strat has been used.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't think that's how sequencing works. You both have to declare you're using the stratagems at the time the unit is targeted; as the player whose turn it is, you get to decide which order they resolve in (which doesn't actually matter), but you don't get to go back and undo your choice to use the strat or to target the unit after their strat has been used.

Except that in this example, one procs when selecting a target (before choosing which profile the TFC will use, to which unit it will fire against, etc), and the other procs when it has been selected as a target (when the weapon profile and the target was selected). So they're not resolved at same time. So sequencing doesn't come into play here at all.

I'm not going to get into that argument, I was just pointing out that sequencing doesn't work that way if it does apply. Sequencing is about resolving effects, not choosing to apply them. This isn't MTG (or at least how MTG used to be 20 years ago, I dunno what it's like now). I don't think 40k actually has any instructions on how to handle a situation where both players have to decide whether to do something at the same time.

 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
False. Tremor shell timing is when selecting a target. Rotate Ion Shield timing is when the target has been selected. Two different timing. (at the moment of vs after the moment)

i.e. You can't use the tremor shell stratagem after having selected the target per RAW. You can't use rotate ion shield before a shooting attack has been declared against it per RAW.

You are incorrect. What I said is true.

"when selecting a target" and "when an enemy unit targets" Is the same time.

No. "When selecting a target" happens during the process of choosing a target. "When an enemy unit targets" is after the targeting step has been completed.

"When selecting a target" a target is "When an enemy unit targets" They are the same thing.

Select Targets rules say "When a unit shoots, you must select the target unit(s) for all of the ranged weapons its models are making attacks with before any attacks are resolved."

So before attacks are resolved you are in the Select Target step, at that time you target units and thus both strats can be used (If you select an eligible target for the "Rotate Ion Shields" Strat).

 DeathReaper wrote:


Select Targets rules say "When a unit shoots, you must select the target unit(s) for all of the ranged weapons its models are making attacks with before any attacks are resolved."

You are in the process of selecting the target. As skchsan says, "before choosing which profile the TFC will use, to which unit it will fire against, etc"

 DeathReaper wrote:
So before attacks are resolved you are in the Select Target step, at that time you target units and thus both strats can be used (If you select an eligible target for the "Rotate Ion Shields" Strat).

Incorrect. The target has to have been selected as a target, after the initial selection. Which is after, not at the same time, as the other. Sequencing doesn't apply.

With the danger of feeding the flames...

Selecting target is only completed once you've (not in specific order):
-determined the target unit is within range of at least one of the attacking units weapons.
-determined the target unit is visible to the attacking unit.
-declared which weapon is being fired, and which profile it will use if it has more than one, and at who it will fire at.

Unless you've gone through & confirmed you meet all the criteria above as per rules, you have not selected a target, or the unit is not eligible to shoot with (which then necessarily prohibits you from selecting a target).

Once the attacker has met all the criteria for a legal shooting attack, and only if then, you are 'targeted'.

 doctortom wrote:
Incorrect. The target has to have been selected as a target, after the initial selection. Which is after, not at the same time, as the other. Sequencing doesn't apply.

Not incorrect. Skchsan has it correct.

"When selecting a target" and "When an enemy unit targets" happen at the same time

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Incorrect. The target has to have been selected as a target, after the initial selection. Which is after, not at the same time, as the other. Sequencing doesn't apply.

Not incorrect. Skchsan has it correct.

"When selecting a target" and "When an enemy unit targets" happen at the same time

Spoiler:

 skchsan wrote:
With the danger of feeding the flames...

Selecting target is only completed once you've (not in specific order):
-determined the target unit is within range of at least one of the attacking units weapons.
-determined the target unit is visible to the attacking unit.
-declared which weapon is being fired, and which profile it will use if it has more than one, and at who it will fire at.

Unless you've gone through & confirmed you meet all the criteria above as per rules, you have not selected a target, or the unit is not eligible to shoot with (which then necessarily prohibits you from selecting a target).

Once the attacker has met all the criteria for a legal shooting attack, and only if then, you are 'targeted'.

I'm glad you say that skchsan has it correct. Now go and read his post 2 above your last post. You'll find out he was saying the two things proc at different times. I quoted him saying that one procs before you've declared with weapon is being fired, adn which profile it will us if it has more than one, and who it will fire at, while the other procs after all of that.

 doctortom wrote:
I'm glad you say that skchsan has it correct. Now go and read his post 2 above your last post.

I literally quoted and linked the post where he was correct. I do not need to read his post 2 above my last post, because I literally linked/quoted the post I was talking about. The post of his that I quoted confirms that the two things happen at the same time.

(His post 2 above my last post has it incorrect as he said "the other procs when it has been selected as a target" which is demonstrably false).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I'm glad you say that skchsan has it correct. Now go and read his post 2 above your last post.

I literally quoted and linked the post where he was correct. I do not need to read his post 2 above my last post, because I literally linked/quoted the post I was talking about. The post of his that I quoted confirms that the two things happen at the same time.

(His post 2 above my last post has it incorrect as he said "the other procs when it has been selected as a target" which is demonstrably false).

No, he wasn't incorrect, you completely missed his point, and if the comment is demonstrably false then by all means go ahead and demonstate it.

 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I'm glad you say that skchsan has it correct. Now go and read his post 2 above your last post.

I literally quoted and linked the post where he was correct. I do not need to read his post 2 above my last post, because I literally linked/quoted the post I was talking about. The post of his that I quoted confirms that the two things happen at the same time.

(His post 2 above my last post has it incorrect as he said "the other procs when it has been selected as a target" which is demonstrably false).

No, he wasn't incorrect, you completely missed his point, and if the comment is demonstrably false then by all means go ahead and demonstate it.

Yes he was, as I have shown.

I have demonstrated it, but here it is again: "when selecting a target" and "when an enemy unit targets" Is the same time.

When a unit selects a target, is when an enemy unit targets.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I'm glad you say that skchsan has it correct. Now go and read his post 2 above your last post.

I literally quoted and linked the post where he was correct. I do not need to read his post 2 above my last post, because I literally linked/quoted the post I was talking about. The post of his that I quoted confirms that the two things happen at the same time.

(His post 2 above my last post has it incorrect as he said "the other procs when it has been selected as a target" which is demonstrably false).

No, he wasn't incorrect, you completely missed his point, and if the comment is demonstrably false then by all means go ahead and demonstate it.

Yes he was, as I have shown.

I have demonstrated it, but here it is again: "when selecting a target" and "when an enemy unit targets" Is the same time.

When a unit selects a target, is when an enemy unit targets.

To be clear, is your contention that these two effects happen at the same time, therefore sequencing applies? Are you saying the player with the Thunderfire Cannon, whose turn it is, can force hte Knights player to Rotate Ion Shields first?

 Ghaz wrote:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Gun-crazy Show-offs: After this unit has shot in the Shooting phase, roll a D6. On a 6 the unit can immediately shoot again, but can only target the nearest enemy unit.

Reanimation Protocols would occur after the Shooting phase but before rolling the D6.

I assume you mean after they shot in the shooting phase.

Why do you think so? RP happens "after a unit attacks"

Which they have done, since the Rare Rules for 'Shoot Again' tells us the following:

If a rule allows a unit, model or weapon to shoot again, then it must completely resolve its first shooting attack before resolving the second.

So again, that would mean that you would roll the Reanimation Protocols before you roll the D6 as it is after the Flash Gitz have attacked. Then if you roll a 6 and shoot at the same unit again you would roll Reanimation Protocols again after shooting as it's once more "after a unit attacks".

Ok this convinces me.