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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Thank you, seems like this Frequently Asked Question answer did... nothing at all really.

As the default Rule already required the unit to be 'Eligible,' and the F.A.Q. didn't clarify the difference between 'Can-Not Be Selected' and 'Eligible,' it really does nothing but cloud this issue even further. The Authors are going to need to keep that in mind as they can easily write in errors, all by using these two pieces of terminology as if they where interchangeable. I, personally, look forward to seeing just how many broken situations this leads to....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:45:09


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





The way I understand, there are four tiers/pecking order/initiative steps in 9th ed fight phase:

1. units that charged/units that have 'always fight first' rule
2. units within engagement range/units with 'always fight first' rule under the effect of 'fight last' rule
3. units within engagement range under the effect of 'cannot be selected until all eligible units have fought' rule
4. units under the effect of 'fight last' rule.

Counter offensive stratagem can interrupt the normal order from #1 to 3. It cannot be used to push #4 up to be in between #1~3.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:52:41


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

While it would make more sense for there to be a real 'priority system,' the Authors have taken a shortcut!

The only reason it feels like a Priority System is the fact we are forbidden from Selecting certain Units unless previous conditions have been met. This creates a pseudo-order of events, but it really doesn't give us any clear indication as to how to determine those priorities ahead of time. We have to 'check state' everything over and over again, when it comes to Selecting the Next Unit to Fight with....

This is why a Rule giving permission to select a Unit, regardless of those conditions, is so very useful and needs to be clearly understood.
Counter-Offensive - You Failed to be clearly understood.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 18:10:44


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





FWIW I did email GW's FAQ email asking whether there is an intentional difference between 'cannot be selected' and 'not eligible', and hopefully others that have joined the discussion have to. Maybe we can get a clarifying FAQ in the next wave.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





The way I interpret it, 'Fight Last' rules are more extreme form of pecking order manipulation, just as there are 'reroll 1's' and 'reroll all failed rolls'.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

I think this is going to be my conclusion:
Game Workshop made a formatting mistake that is at the root of all this, so I blame the Editor - See... they explained Fight First as part of 'Charging Units Fight First,' instead of creating a real priority system! This is further cemented when you go to the Rare Rule section and see how 'Fight First/Last' directly relates back to this whole 'Charging Units Fight First' thing, by saying 'even if they didn't made a charge move this turn' and other such references. These two concepts are so interwoven that it has become very difficult for a Rule designed to inject itself between two Charging Units not to also effect all of the First/Last Rule as well....

To make it a little more confusing to the many different language readers:
The Authors then go on to repeatedly refer to Fight First and Charging Units Fight First as if they are two separate things.
I know sometimes they use 'Reminder Clauses,' but all this has done is add extra lines on how X ability also negates Charge along side Fight First....

How hard would it have been to say:
Charging Units gain Fight First until end of Phase?
Then to explain that as it's own Ruleset?

At this point all I can do is hope they stop using 'cannot be selected' and 'Eligibility' as if they where interchangeable.
If they make sure every single 'Fight Last' ability contains the magical words of Eligibility we might be able to avoid this whole 'Counter-Offensive' mess....

IN FINAL CLOSING:
At this time I am going to tip my hat to this Forum again, maybe put my money towards Table Top Models I can use in Role Playing instead.
I have requested this account be removed from my reach, so I shouldn't be posting here any more for another long while... (google Permitting)

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 20:59:25


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 JinxDragon wrote:
Thank you, seems like this Frequently Asked Question answer did... nothing at all really.

As the default Rule already required the unit to be 'Eligible,' and the F.A.Q. didn't clarify the difference between 'Can-Not Be Selected' and 'Eligible,' it really does nothing but cloud this issue even further. The Authors are going to need to keep that in mind as they can easily write in errors, all by using these two pieces of terminology as if they where interchangeable. I, personally, look forward to seeing just how many broken situations this leads to....
The FAQ answer is a reminder. You are technically correct that it doesn't actually change anything.
*Pages 361-362 – Rare Rules, Always Fight First/Last
Add the following paragraph to the end of this Rare Rules entry: ‘Note that the Counter-offensive Stratagem requires you to select a unit that is eligible to fight. This means that if a unit is under the effects of a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so, you will not be able to select that unit to use the Counter-offensive Stratagem.’
So this is there to tell you that a unit that is not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so is different from a unit that has to Fight Last, a unit that cannot be selected until to fight in the Fight phase until after all other eligible units have done so. It is a slight, but definite difference in the rules. If you cannot be selected, you are still a unit eligible to fight and can be selected by Counter-Offensive. If you are not eligible, you cannot as it requires you to be eligible to fight.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

If you cannot be selected, how do you make it they are eligible?

But now we have two threads with the same repeated arguments.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you cannot be selected, how do you make it they are eligible?

But now we have two threads with the same repeated arguments.


You select an eligible unit to fight. When is a unit eligible to fight ?

1. When it has made a charge move in the same turn.
2. When it is within engagement range of an enemy unit.
3. When its not affected by a special rule which makes it not eligible.

FIGHT PHASE
An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn.


When a rule says the unit fight last in the fight phase it can still be eligible to fight (if it meets the requirements), and would fight next when the counter offensive stratagem is used.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 11:27:00


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Now, if all 'fight last' Rules specifically mentioned Eligibility it wouldn't become an issue.
Of course, most simply says 'Unit Fights Last' and assumes we know what that means for Eligibility!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 18:47:58


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
 
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