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 insaniak wrote:
I can't speak for everybody, but for me, what kept me coming back long after I had lost interest in actually playing the game, and still keeps me checking in on new releases just to see what's happening, is investment.

I started playing 40K in 1994, and stopped playing about mid-way through 6th edition when the move to hardcover codexes made it impractical to keep up with the rules and I realised that I wasn't enjoying what the game had become anymore anyway. I have a cabinet full of painted miniatures, two shelves full of rulebooks and codexes, and more unpainted stuff sitting downstairs than I'll likely paint in my lifetime, particularly now that I'm not actively playing the game.

All of that adds up to a significant investment in money, time, and mental space, and just letting go of that is not easy. I did, in the end, by deciding to go back and revisit 2nd edition and largely ignore the new stuff... but that took a while.

It's really easy to dismiss it as people 'wanting something to be upset about'... but it's generally a lot deeper than that, from my experience. People want the thing they love to go on being the thing they love, and so they hang on in the hope that, despite all evidence to the contrary, at some point it will go back to being that thing.

100% agree. For me that's your (OP) answer to the question.

Try to see such posts not as complaining/whining why the game is bad, but rather as discussing how the game can be better to make us want to play it again.

 Hollow wrote:
A lot of people like being miserable. They enjoy wallowing in their own misery and because they are fundamentally unhappy they are annoyed by others who are happy or enjoy things. So they complain, they drag things down, they are like the dementors from Harry Potter. Everyone knows who they are... same old nics been moaning on Dakka for 10+ years.

It was also a bit of a hit for the Dakka community when Warseer fell. A lot of the negative dross that used to dwell over there have infected here... like a big negative tumor.

Interesting. I used to hang on Warseer as well when it was still more active, they still send me a "Happy Birthday!" spam email every year

As for complainers, its just weak-minded internet "culture" where the curtain of anonymity creates these "gakpost" tendencies. People know they're better than that but do it anyways. It's boring AF but whatchagonnado

The binaries of groupthink enforcing hater/fanboi demographics is hilarious though! Faultless logic, and very mature way to view the world. Such a shame there is no middle ground between those two polar opposites....

There are lots of things to like about the GW games, much of what on here is cathartic, maybe some people hope that that GW might look at these forums as a way of understanding how happy their customers are. I have never seen a survey from GW.

However many people have invested a huge amount of time and money in to GW in 30 ish years 40K has been running. The hobby is not cheap and it is time intensive. A lot of people will have their a good part of their social life revolve around table top gaming and specifically 40K. This all makes it very hard to walk away from.

Also there is no competition for GW really, there are other games sure but nothing like GW. I think the lack of competition is unhealthy for GW but how do you create a competitive product when people have 30 years invested in 40K lore and games.

It’s like football (soccer). There’s so much wrong with it, like an any big money sport, but people don’t just stop supporting their teams.

I think GW either know this or recognise the end result of this and because they know player won’t just walk away it encourages them to do some crap things.

 tauist wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
A lot of people like being miserable. They enjoy wallowing in their own misery and because they are fundamentally unhappy they are annoyed by others who are happy or enjoy things. So they complain, they drag things down, they are like the dementors from Harry Potter. Everyone knows who they are... same old nics been moaning on Dakka for 10+ years.

It was also a bit of a hit for the Dakka community when Warseer fell. A lot of the negative dross that used to dwell over there have infected here... like a big negative tumor.

Interesting. I used to hang on Warseer as well when it was still more active, they still send me a "Happy Birthday!" spam email every year

As for complainers, its just weak-minded internet "culture" where the curtain of anonymity creates these "gakpost" tendencies.

Yes because GW never deletes negative comments on their social media and people are just posting positive thoughts.

Oh wait they DO delete negative comments and people aren't just hiding on forums LOL

 insaniak wrote:
I can't speak for everybody, but for me, what kept me coming back long after I had lost interest in actually playing the game, and still keeps me checking in on new releases just to see what's happening, is investment.

I started playing 40K in 1994, and stopped playing about mid-way through 6th edition when the move to hardcover codexes made it impractical to keep up with the rules and I realised that I wasn't enjoying what the game had become anymore anyway. I have a cabinet full of painted miniatures, two shelves full of rulebooks and codexes, and more unpainted stuff sitting downstairs than I'll likely paint in my lifetime, particularly now that I'm not actively playing the game.

All of that adds up to a significant investment in money, time, and mental space, and just letting go of that is not easy. I did, in the end, by deciding to go back and revisit 2nd edition and largely ignore the new stuff... but that took a while.

It's really easy to dismiss it as people 'wanting something to be upset about'... but it's generally a lot deeper than that, from my experience. People want the thing they love to go on being the thing they love, and so they hang on in the hope that, despite all evidence to the contrary, at some point it will go back to being that thing.

My thoughts exactly. I haven't played 40k since 7th, and couldn't get into WHFB before GW exploded the Old World. I keep checking to see what's happening with the games, looking for signs of improvement.

I have a few AOS minis, may get more, mostly for 9th Age. The game may be fun for a basic minis "fix" from time to time. I don't love it, though.

I'm in the 40k section for two reasons. A main reason, and a sub reason.

But firstly, a disclaimer. I love everything 40k except the tabletop game. I love the lore, I love the concept, I love my models. But the prices, the rules, and the priorities are all completely wrong and make for a game that's just not that fun.

So why am I here?
Because I don't have the option to play anything else.
I live in a pretty major city, but it's difficult to get games of anything that isn't 40k, the largest community for a game that isn't 40k/AoS numbers barely a dozen people that I'm aware of.
40k? I know four entire clubs within a reasonable travel of me, there's probably at least 100 people here actively playing 40k.
Too often it's a choice of play 40k or nothing at all.

The secondary reason is I've already invested a lot in 40k. I have a massive army, it doesn't cost me anything to continue playing 40k.
I invest in building and painting other gaming systems, but I have many models for non-40k systems that principally sit in storage because noones there to play them, despite them being (imo) significantly better games.

Togusa wrote:
So my question to those who are unhappy with the current state of their respective game and the company as a whole is why do you all stay and collectively subject yourself to something a lot of you clearly hate? I see it time and time again in just about every thread, the literal same arguments people were having two years ago about primaris this, stormcast that, my rules suck, that new army get's more support than my 1 character, 2 troop army that hasn't been good since third edition, I don't like the aesthetics, I don't like the rules! Complain, complain, complain. Clearly this hobby makes you unhappy, so why do you subject yourself to it continuously when a lot of you even go so far as to say that it's never going to change? It's like you know it's bad for your health, but you keep coming back and I just don't understand it?

Just to be fair, I did this myself with 40K up until the Pandemic forced me to suspend my gaming. Once I wasn't able to do it, I had all these realizations that I needed to find another game and I moved to AoS instead of 40K. Things got a lot better for me, because it turns out that game is much better suited for me than 40K was. There are a lot of choices out there for wargames and I'm genuinely curious about this.

Well, the Hobby is: Painting, collecting, building, playing, lore.

Not GW. I don't need them to enjoy the hobby, a realisation that i made not too long ago, and encouraged with the legendening of my main army.

As such:

-GW isn't the 40k universe. Which is important, 40k as a setting or narrative has some massive draw, that allows and allowed in the past even by GW to be a huge outlet of creativity. I happen to like being a mekboy or heretek. Which is incidentally why i hate what gw has done with it's shift to "DyNaMic ENtrIeS" model types and TACTICOOL ROCKS, which are all monopose. Nvm that the switch of setting to narrative progression wasn't really... well .... well thought out.
The thing is, 40k still has all the old draws, or as a certain fantastical pirate captain stated: "The worlds still the same. there's just less in it." Or basically, GW dosen't really handle the universe the same way as it once did and it shows. That doesn't stop me though from kitbashing or using 3rd party bits ,etc. it's just that it got artificially made more difficult by GW for the following reason.

-GW is a Corporate company with a defacto monopoly and greedy as hell. What do i mean by that? See that cycle brought up by arbitrator, yeah. This used to happen over here all the time. Until in 6-7th Gw shattered it's stranglehold locally, which was an massive improvement in the healthyness of the lcoal scene of TG gaming. Yet it still retains that mass appeal and that sunk cost issue still provides ample support from people like you Togusa, and even me to a degree, even though nowadays i cut the dealer or gw out as much as possible. It's also unhealthy for the game as a whole and even for gw.

-GW forces Mobile game tactics into the hobby. This point is tied to above points, but in essence the tendency is that GW attempts to whalehunt with it's price increases and new thing tm. It's also using FOMO as a sales tactic. This doesn't really dissuade people from the hobby, it just dissuades people from GW. Take the new rules debacle with DE and you see the adverse effects on the hobby quite clearly. You have what is in essence first day /pre order DLC for the codex in the book of rust that turns DE into broken. And that isn't the first time rulessources GW sells to it's custommers are blatantly faulty /P2W. What gw doesn't realise, that unlike a mobile game, which can be held afloat by the whales and you can secure their satisfaction of engagement with bots, you can't do this in 40k since it's a TG. When there's no opponent for you who are you going to play with?

All this atleast has in my case lead to a point, where i simply don't buy into modern GW anymore, i refuse to buy 9th ed rulebook, i refuse to buy the new dexes or separate rulessources. That doesn't mean i hate the hobby or that it makes me miserable, or that i can't enjoy a good batrep or watch a competitve round on twitch. The only thing that it makes me is disapointed in regards to GW's handeling of the rules aspect and therefore play aspect, aswell as the narrative, which i have an inkling that primaris are still just an attempt at reselling the SM crowd their army again.

Their unabashed greed has priced me out of many official GW models aswell and made me for certain more creative in regards to cost saving meassures and inadvertently turned me into a decent kitbasher and builder, or atleast that's what people stated anyhow on my blog, but since i consider that as a baseskill, (and GW did so either cue that ork mechanized army f.e. in older whitedwarfs) and part of the draw i don't care.

TL: DR The universe is still there, there's just less and less reason to play by GW's rules and buy GWs models only. Not when you can convert stuff and not when you can form your own ruleset.



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 kirotheavenger wrote:
I'm in the 40k section for two reasons. A main reason, and a sub reason.

But firstly, a disclaimer. I love everything 40k except the tabletop game. I love the lore, I love the concept, I love my models. But the prices, the rules, and the priorities are all completely wrong and make for a game that's just not that fun.

So why am I here?
Because I don't have the option to play anything else.
I live in a pretty major city, but it's difficult to get games of anything that isn't 40k, the largest community for a game that isn't 40k/AoS numbers barely a dozen people that I'm aware of.
40k? I know four entire clubs within a reasonable travel of me, there's probably at least 100 people here actively playing 40k.
Too often it's a choice of play 40k or nothing at all.

The secondary reason is I've already invested a lot in 40k. I have a massive army, it doesn't cost me anything to continue playing 40k.
I invest in building and painting other gaming systems, but I have many models for non-40k systems that principally sit in storage because noones there to play them, despite them being (imo) significantly better games.

This. So. Much. Until GW really screws up again more majorly and they are forced to care more so long this inertia it has will maintain the stranglehold.

While I know 40K is not perfect and lots of units and rules are broken or at least bent out of shape, this forum loves to complain about off topic stuff (myself included). I kind of feel there should be a Primaris Hate thread where all off topic chatter about what’s wrong with Marines can be moved there instead of clogging up threads about other factions. I stopped reading the Sisters of Battle Codex thread because it just turned into a Primaris thread (I think it was that thread anyway). Things can go off topic to just complaining for days yet you mention politics at all and a SWAT team of mods descend and flash bang the whole room

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I'm in the 40k section for two reasons. A main reason, and a sub reason.

But firstly, a disclaimer. I love everything 40k except the tabletop game. I love the lore, I love the concept, I love my models. But the prices, the rules, and the priorities are all completely wrong and make for a game that's just not that fun.

So why am I here?
Because I don't have the option to play anything else.
I live in a pretty major city, but it's difficult to get games of anything that isn't 40k, the largest community for a game that isn't 40k/AoS numbers barely a dozen people that I'm aware of.
40k? I know four entire clubs within a reasonable travel of me, there's probably at least 100 people here actively playing 40k.
Too often it's a choice of play 40k or nothing at all.

The secondary reason is I've already invested a lot in 40k. I have a massive army, it doesn't cost me anything to continue playing 40k.
I invest in building and painting other gaming systems, but I have many models for non-40k systems that principally sit in storage because noones there to play them, despite them being (imo) significantly better games.

You say it doesn’t cost anything to continue to play 40K but if you are playing with people that want to keep very current with the rules and content then actually the is an operational cost to 40K. The slow and steady roll out of codexes, campaign books, supplemental books like vigilus and PA and other indexes mean that you could end up spending a fair amount of money. And then eventually there will be a new edition.

Some players will just be happy to base line a certain set of rules which is great but reading about the 40K player base and the constant sales figures I don’t think this is many people.

Also the massive uptake of competitive and tournament play is totally exploited by GW. They don’t attempt to make a fair and balanced game, they clearly take an “in app purchases” approach to 40K in that you will at some point see your army take a dive competitively only to find a purchase (usually new rules) are required to put you back in the game.

Been saying it for a long time, expand the horizon. GW is what, less then 5%?? of the total avalible game systems out there. That it is like basicly just eating nothing but bread for your whole life.
And GW is not in the marked to make games with good rules, but to sell models. 40k as it stand will never have a "good and balanced rule set".

For all gamers who has other games then GW, take the plunge, showcase new games to the GW mono fokused gamers. I guess all clubs has a handfull of persons in charge, should not be that mutch of an issue to have demo nights 1-2 times a month for other brand games.

Complaining about negativity around GW is like complaining water is wet. When I tried to get into Warhammer Fantasy back in the day, I remember talking to a group of older guys who stood around slagging off 4th Ed 40K and that I should try fantasy is better, I asked them about Fantasy and all I got was “it’s the worst edition, don’t bother GW has ruined it wait for next edition”.

Half the reason for the negativity is that people back themselves into a GW corner and never try any other tabletop games. Or just have to stick with the current editions even though they hate them. The vast majority of the real consistent detractors are actually the biggest fans, if people genuinely hated the product (not the company) they would have walked a long time ago.

Togusa wrote:
So my question to those who are unhappy with the current state of their respective game and the company as a whole is why do you all stay and collectively subject yourself to something a lot of you clearly hate? I see it time and time again in just about every thread, the literal same arguments people were having two years ago about primaris this, stormcast that, my rules suck, that new army get's more support than my 1 character, 2 troop army that hasn't been good since third edition, I don't like the aesthetics, I don't like the rules! Complain, complain, complain. Clearly this hobby makes you unhappy, so why do you subject yourself to it continuously when a lot of you even go so far as to say that it's never going to change? It's like you know it's bad for your health, but you keep coming back and I just don't understand it?

Just to be fair, I did this myself with 40K up until the Pandemic forced me to suspend my gaming. Once I wasn't able to do it, I had all these realizations that I needed to find another game and I moved to AoS instead of 40K. Things got a lot better for me, because it turns out that game is much better suited for me than 40K was. There are a lot of choices out there for wargames and I'm genuinely curious about this.

I don't. I've quit 40k and gave all my Horus Heresy novels in Polish that I had to my mother last year. The last straw was realisation how hypocritical they are. Like how they did the whole "Warhammer is for Everyone" thing when pricing people out of the hobby, including reading fluff. Like if you live outside the west, you're clearly not Everyone to them. Like the Forgeworld Horus Heresy and Imperial Armour fluff is just insanely expensive (when it comes to prices in relation to wages... imagine paying 110 euro for softcover HH book).
Just comparing the days when I used to read Index Astartes in White Dwarf in the Fat Bloke era to Legion descriptions being locked away in super-expensive books, ugh :/ . Yeah, totally for everyone.

I'm still interested in Oldhammer and some of Inq28 stuff but I've quit reading novels and buying any of their stuff. Though now I see the Inq28 community seems to have some toxic elements. While they don't have fascists, they clearly don't like the part of the community that respects canon.

Also their hypocrisy of saying it's not aspirational when since 2nd ed it was basically straightforward glorification of the Imperium directed to kids. Generally, like, reading Wh40k fluff and thoughts of the day has taught me many valuable life lessons, particularly about the value of Hate which I have of course applied to GW, but it can be highly dangerous if someone isn't very individualist and is into stuff like countries, ethnicity, etc.
.
Or the recent stuff they recently were claiming that when they did Rogue Trader, they couldn't do female marines because people would complain about female marines in blisters, conventionally omitting the fact that nobody forced them to write it explicitly in fluff that Space Marines are all male and that gene-seed is keyed to male hormones and tissues and that their concept of female characters was Sororitas with tiny torsos and boobplate and thongs and that they released female army soldiers and other characters and never canonically closed off other factions to women like they did with marines.

I recently got into painting and converting miniatures again and I'm using 1/72 historical miniatures as a base and trying to paint them in Blanchitsu style.

Also got a Laserburn rulebook and a miniature set - thought Laserburn seems to have some crucial supplements like one with vehicle stats and force organisations and scenario supplements permanently OOP.

Was thinking into getting into some wargame for some time, I think most recently looked into Warzone but my main problem with miniature wargames in general is that I have very little tolerance to stuff like abstracted ranges. When I see a rifle with range of 24", I lose all interest in playing that stuff. I noticed that GW stuff tends to take up most of tournament slots in stores, though.

Has anyone here looked into Ion Age?

When it comes to novels, after I started hating GW, I remembered that the excellent Atomic Space Rockets page about space sci-fi realism has a list of recommended novels and that I should start buying them - for some reason I was prioritising 40k novels before despite that I often found combat in them, particularly space combat lacking.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Been saying it for a long time, expand the horizon. GW is what, less then 5%?? of the total avalible game systems out there. That it is like basicly just eating nothing but bread for your whole life.
And GW is not in the marked to make games with good rules, but to sell models. 40k as it stand will never have a "good and balanced rule set".

For all gamers who has other games then GW, take the plunge, showcase new games to the GW mono fokused gamers. I guess all clubs has a handfull of persons in charge, should not be that mutch of an issue to have demo nights 1-2 times a month for other brand games.

What are these other games and do they really compete with 40K in terms of models (quality and quantity), background and lore?

If your more purist about playing games then I bed there's loads out there but the model collecting and lore is at least half of it for most people (I think). GW has been luckily in that it’s been able to benefit from basically being a blend of all other high concept sci fi with a veneer of originality over the top. And it’s developed that starting at a time when no one really cared. Now a new competitor that wanted to compete on the level of lore and model quality and quantity would have to be so original that it would be a massive task, especially as GW would use any suspicion of encroachments on IP to crunch a fledgling competitor.

Moaners gonna moan.

Plenty of people bleat on and on that 40K is not their hobby, that they haven't bought any stuff in decades, and that they don't play, and yet continue to inflict themselves on forums dedicated to those very things.

Togusa wrote:
Clearly this hobby makes you unhappy, so why do you subject yourself to it continuously when a lot of you even go so far as to say that it's never going to change? It's like you know it's bad for your health, but you keep coming back and I just don't understand it?

GW is a corporate brand not a hobby.

I've never been happier hobby wise, I've discovered new things like Infinity and Frostgrave, and stick to older editions of GW games. There are so many new and different games with great models that I want to try and it's just a matter of budgeting my spending. Battletech has been around forever and yet it's brand new to me.

I dont know why being a bit salty about the way gw is taking the game would be bad for your health? I think its fun to stick around to witness some good discussions, see cool paintjobs, hear news in miniature wargaming world and to occasionally join in and bash on primaris cash grab releases for good measure.

I find it easier to relate to someone with a healthy mix of interest and frustration with the hobby than some of these frothing fans who jump on anyone with a non optimistic opinion.

Trying different games is fun but 40k is still a good source for a lot of inspiration and memories. Gw is not the hobby, miniature wargaming, painting and building a fantasy miniature world is. I'll stick around thank you.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Well, the Hobby is: Painting, collecting, building, playing, lore.

Not GW. I don't need them to enjoy the hobby, a realisation that i made not too long ago, and encouraged with the legendening of my main army.

I agree, that's true for me too.

I'm not really a tabletop gamer, I like all the parts of the hobby and if 40k isn't good enough for me I simply stop playing for a while and I dedicate my spare time to the other parts of the hobbies, or even to the other different hobbies that I have.

So while I'm not interested in playing anything that isn't GW, because my desire to play a miniature wargame and to prove my self a good player isn't that strong, I'm also ok with quitting from gaming, even for years, if the current set of rules doesn't satisfy me. I fact, I've done it several times since I started the hobby in 1999 and never got frustrated about GW.

Having said that I think the current version of 40k is one of the best moments for the game, and I don't play only because of the pandemic.

As I see it there's two downsides to it all

1) Negative social behaviour can become engrained in some peoples habits so much that it infects all their posts. This can become a problem when those people are very active because that griping and whining and negativity permeates into everywhere. Into welcome threads or "hey this game is cool how do I get started" etc.. Ergo people who come and want to engage in a positive way get a fish-slap to the face of negativity. That is very socially discouraging.

Ergo there's a time and a place.


2) No one wins. *
And because the target is often the general "its GW's fault" and GW isn't part of the discussion as a contributor; there's no change or "victory" or defeat or such at the end of a long argument.

Everyone just gets riled up; hyped up over the argument (the original thread point gets forgotten) and fired up and then a mod normally locks/forces the discussion on and no one gets satisfaction. All that negativity builds up and isn't given a proper release, so it builds and builds within people. They hyper focus on the negative and stop being critical and just negative. The result is they get so hooked on it, so focused that it dominates them.



Again in my view the problem isn't one complaint or one critical thought. The problem is volume and placement and the fact that in the end people leave such discussions with a negative association and experience.



The result of which is an unhealthy social setup.


Yes you can easily get all fired up over an argument, but in the end most people don't come to a social group for that. They come to share their painting; their hobby; their gaming; their lore. They come for the positive end of things whatever that is. Heck they come just to hang out with other geeks and chat about hobby and geeky things. Some might be out of 40K but are active in the Infinity or other games; or they are generally chatting about what music thye listen to and what they've done this weekend with their other hobbies.
Positive hobby interaction might not generate 10 pages of back and forth; however its often the thing people come back for more often than the 20 page arguments.



*Think of it like a cat playing with a laser pointer. The cat enjoys it, but if they catch nothing and have no "win" at the end; no reward. Then it can quickly build frustrations and annoyance in the cat. What starts out positive ends up negative and repeat exposure builds on that end state.

 harlokin wrote:
Moaners gonna moan.

Plenty of people bleat on and on that 40K is not their hobby, that they haven't bought any stuff in decades, and that they don't play, and yet continue to inflict themselves on forums dedicated to those very things.

You know how people gawk at road accidents?

The main thing I dislike is giant models/herohammer. I feel the game played a lot better without Primarchs/Knights/Planes - the scale seemed to be more interesting back then more like a skirmish game.

Togusa wrote:
So my question to those who are unhappy with the current state of their respective game and the company as a whole is why do you all stay and collectively subject yourself to something a lot of you clearly hate? I see it time and time again in just about every thread, the literal same arguments people were having two years ago about primaris this, stormcast that, my rules suck, that new army get's more support than my 1 character, 2 troop army that hasn't been good since third edition, I don't like the aesthetics, I don't like the rules! Complain, complain, complain. Clearly this hobby makes you unhappy, so why do you subject yourself to it continuously when a lot of you even go so far as to say that it's never going to change? It's like you know it's bad for your health, but you keep coming back and I just don't understand it?

Just to be fair, I did this myself with 40K up until the Pandemic forced me to suspend my gaming. Once I wasn't able to do it, I had all these realizations that I needed to find another game and I moved to AoS instead of 40K. Things got a lot better for me, because it turns out that game is much better suited for me than 40K was. There are a lot of choices out there for wargames and I'm genuinely curious about this.

I don't, if you may have noticed i and a few others here promote playing the older editions/house rules for the game when it was something we honestly enjoyed. additionally we promote players expanding their options into other game systems(see my sig) that are better than what GW has to offer but may not get the attention they deserve. so i don't see swapping from one GW game (40K) for another GW game (AOS) that is only marginally better in it's current form as an improvement.

So much so that at this point if you talk to me about ret-conned lore, new models, stratagems, FAQs/errata for anything 9th ed related, my eyes will just glaze over with indifference since i no longer care what they are doing with the IP. the reason i am here, posting on these forums is-i am still a war gamer and i like to talk about the games i do play so i can share and promote things with others who are where i am at.

For 3 editions 3rd-5th 40K it felt like the design team was actually trying(but not always succeeding) to fix most issues and advance the game rules in an understandable progression. As one online stream i just watched yesterday mentioned the fact that there is nobody left at GW that were the original brains behind creating the universe and translating it into the game we fell in love with. It is just become a self perpetuating brand that lacks the depth of what it once was.

Some games just do not need "fixing" or updates with official rules that make certain players feel validated because they must use the most current rules set.

For GW games a fine example would be BFG as of the last rules set updates in 2010( a surprisingly positive up date that added more lore to the game) it is still IMHO the best designed game GW has ever made. the game could be re-released as is with no changes right now and still be as good as it ever was.

As another example look at classic battletech/alpha strike-a game that has been around longer than official 40K and has very little in the way of changes to it's core rules for over 30 years.

There is a complete rules set and an entire book of official optional rules for playing the crunchy small scale super detailed skirmish battles of classic battletech or you can use the other official version of the game rules in the form of the super simple large scale battle system of alpha strike.

So no players will feel that you are "making things up" by using non-official rules and you can still play however you want.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Forgemaster wrote:
The main thing I dislike is giant models/herohammer. I feel the game played a lot better without Primarchs/Knights/Planes - the scale seemed to be more interesting back then more like a skirmish game.

To be honest back in the older editions superheavies were centerpiece models and nowhere near as scary/game breaking as they have become now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 tauist wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
A lot of people like being miserable. They enjoy wallowing in their own misery and because they are fundamentally unhappy they are annoyed by others who are happy or enjoy things. So they complain, they drag things down, they are like the dementors from Harry Potter. Everyone knows who they are... same old nics been moaning on Dakka for 10+ years.

It was also a bit of a hit for the Dakka community when Warseer fell. A lot of the negative dross that used to dwell over there have infected here... like a big negative tumor.

Interesting. I used to hang on Warseer as well when it was still more active, they still send me a "Happy Birthday!" spam email every year

As for complainers, its just weak-minded internet "culture" where the curtain of anonymity creates these "gakpost" tendencies.

Yes because GW never deletes negative comments on their social media and people are just posting positive thoughts.

Oh wait they DO delete negative comments and people aren't just hiding on forums LOL

What is this social media which you speak of? AFAIK posting a message on a public HTTP adddress = "social media". But how does one "hide" on a publicly accessible forum, as opposed to "hiding" on other web platforms which do not require strong identification?

A lot of people mentioned the sunk cost fallacy, which is true - but I think it's more complicated than that. After watching this problem for years, I realised it's also a relationship problem. A lot of people love 40k (the game / miniature hobby / lore / all of the above), but they hate how the company is treating its customer base. Without repeating all the complaints, I find they all boil down to one thing: GW does not care about the feelings of its fandom.

This creates powerful resentment because the WH hobby revolves around emotional investment. It's more than just a tabletop game: It's also an expansive, epic narrative and a quasi-artistic hobby. There's no way you would create an elaborate background for your homebrew SM chapter / IG regiment / Eldar craftworld / etc. without putting some feelings into it. Same goes for making elaborate conversions, painting your miniatures or designing colour schemes. Then, you've got novels that actively make you invest yourself into the franchise and its heroes (well, some of them).

GW uses this emotional investment to sell more products and keep people in the hobby - often in a very cynical, exploitative way. At the same time, it refuses to acknowledge it and form any sort of positive relationship with its fanbase. You'll never hear them ask for your actual opinion on the franchise you helped to fund. When they mess up, they'll never admit a mistake and apologise. They demand emotional investment when it's convenient, then pretend it doesn't exist when it's not.

This maltreatment has gone on for decades, in many ways and forms. Whenever you get invested in an army / set of rules, GW will change it. If there's a bit of lore you like, you never know when it's going to get retconned. They'll change things you know and love with a snap of their fingers, over your head, with no regard of how you feel. Then, there's also a long history of marketing dishonesty: false advertising (codexes with units that had no miniatures for years), armies in infinite development hell, overpowered rules to attract customers to new releases, etc. A lot of people feel emotionally betrayed by the company - and for very good reasons.

The true tragedy is, the 40k fandom treated vulnerable feelings as a taboo for the longest time. If you expressed investment, trust, betrayal and anger, you'd be chided, ridiculed, rejected and silenced. The community would only accept 'meritorical' discussions, such as talks about the game rules or lore. Because of that, the entire resentment got displaced onto the game. It practically turned into a custom: If you want to talk about how you feel about your relationship with GW, you should talk about how you feel about the game instead.

This doesn't make your point any less valid - moving out of a toxic relationship is the best way to deal with it. At the same time, I can't blame people for being unable - or unwilling - to get out of it, especially if they love the franchise but hate the company. I can understand people who would like nothing more than to love their hobby, with no evil stepmother looming over it. As one player aptly put it, 'GW has a way of telling us what to love, instead of letting us love what we want'.

TL;DR: Yes, GW has a way of making people miserable. Unfortunately, the community has been avoiding the core of the problem for decades, displacing their feelings onto the game.

I think Warhammer, despite a bump here and there, is in a fantastic place. I fething love Warhammer these days and enjoy playing it and making lists and putting together minis and painting.

Would I love certain things to improve? Yes, but overall I just fething love the hobby right now.

Togusa wrote:
So my question to those who are unhappy with the current state of their respective game and the company as a whole is why do you all stay and collectively subject yourself to something a lot of you clearly hate? I see it time and time again in just about every thread, the literal same arguments people were having two years ago about primaris this, stormcast that, my rules suck, that new army get's more support than my 1 character, 2 troop army that hasn't been good since third edition, I don't like the aesthetics, I don't like the rules! Complain, complain, complain. Clearly this hobby makes you unhappy, so why do you subject yourself to it continuously when a lot of you even go so far as to say that it's never going to change? It's like you know it's bad for your health, but you keep coming back and I just don't understand it?

Just to be fair, I did this myself with 40K up until the Pandemic forced me to suspend my gaming. Once I wasn't able to do it, I had all these realizations that I needed to find another game and I moved to AoS instead of 40K. Things got a lot better for me, because it turns out that game is much better suited for me than 40K was. There are a lot of choices out there for wargames and I'm genuinely curious about this.

That is a lot of shots taken under the radar. Not sure a useful reply is warranted. So you get this one .

mrFickle wrote:

What are these other games and do they really compete with 40K in terms of models (quality and quantity), background and lore?

? You understand there is a massive historicals community? Fantastic background (history), unmatched range of models (from 1/54 to airfix gaming through to 2/3/6mm and naval scales), some of whom are museum quality in terms of accuracy?

If you meant Sci Fi ranges I think only smaller scale games have a bigger range than 40k and no one has had as much written about their setting at 40k. Edit - I forgot battletech which has a bigger lore base (but a smaller model range).

I think people can get their perspectives jammed as well, and for whatever reason, either never expand their horizons or never get the chance to do that.

Why are people miserable? When all you know, or all you have access to makes you miserable
, Misery is easy, especiually when not aware that there are other ways of looking at things. It's very easy to double down that road. That 'righteous anger' that it's 'those peoples' fault that you're miserable. And that's the thing about anger and misery. It can so easily be twisted into being 'righteous'. Its warm and comforting, even if it' burns you up. Especially when you convince yourself you're right to be angry and they're the bad guys with all the power and you're helpless against all the bad things. It's very hard to let go of that.

It must be noted as well that a lot of gamers baulk at the notion of personal responsibility in their games and 'balancing it themselves'. Its the 'games fault this thing is broken, the fact I took twelve of them is irrelevant' kind of thing. I know where my perspective lies on this, yours may differ. It feeds back into the cult of officialdom. Fairh in god, if you will. The rules are absolute, and you're a bad person for stepping outside of them. Question them, fine. Be angry at them, fine. But ou need to follow them. bad, yet official rules trump good yet homebrewed rules. Rules must be adhered to.
The 'cult of officialdom' is a real thing. Combined with the other things above, it can create a toxic mess.

What can exacerbates this is people having a 'set' view of what their hobby is and being unbending about it, what they want from it, and a set view of 'this is how you do it' and an unwillingness or lack of an environment or peers in which this can be changed or broadened. Every negative just reinforces itself and its peers.

(Note: Having a set view of what your hobby is is not necessarily a bad thing, let's be clear. I'm not criticising. As I've aged my own views on what I wanted have shifted over time, not everyone will share this journey or desire. And for what it's worth that's ok).

Sometimes it takes a change of circumstances or a change of perspective to appreciate things again, even things that previously made you miserable. And sadly, not everyone is exposed to this or will take this up.

40k and gw used to make me miserable back in 4th. Competitive play made me miserable. My whole hobby experience was viewed solely through this lens. I burned out, I walked away.

What got me back was a new appreciation for the hobby side and playing other games like warmachine.

Years later I burned out of those 'Other games' and again, competitive play. It was my narrative/relaxed/non competitive garagehammer scene that kept me both engaged and interested in the hobby and in the other games. (Note: I do not have any negative views of competitive play in general, let's be clear. Its just not what I want right now)Again, broader horizons, wider perspective, like minded peers. nothing more.

Last few years I've been loving gw's stuff. Love the boxed games - warcry, shadespire necromunda. Saying this would horrify the angry me of yen or fifteen years ago. I've also learned an approach and a perspective that allows me to actively enjoy these 'horribly made' games in a way I never would have had I stayed laser focused on my previous competitive approach. Age helps! I have a lot more life experience than i did when I was a punk in uni. Its also mellowed me. I'm sure some will call me a white knight or the villain in the story for enjoying gw's stuff these days or for not simply being apoplectic with rage against them all the time.

Agree with the OP 100%

Anyone find that reading some of these threads on Dakka makes them enjoy the hobby less? Or at least, does reading Dakka make you less happy?

It's weird... I really don't like posting on here because of all the trolls, yet I find myself strangely attracted to reading the threads. I wonder, are we all just a bit masochistic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside, I'm not going to call out the moaners and the haters, but I would just like to say that I really do appreciate the posts of Overread, Mad Dok and several others

What are these other games and do they really compete with 40K in terms of models (quality and quantity), background and lore?

Just off the top of my head non GW games-

SCIFI
.beyond the gates of antares
.star wars legion
.DUST 1947(all free rules)
.deadzone/warpath(mantic)
.conflict 47
.drop zone commander
.classic battletech
.X-wing
.star wars armada
.babylon 5 wars(all free rules)

FANTASY
.Kings of war/vanguard
.armada
.malifaux/the other side
.Erehwon
.warmachine/hordes(all free rules)

Historical
.bolt actions
.flames of war/team yankee
.black powder
.pike & shot
.victory at sea
.

no one has had as much written about their setting at 40k.

Classic battletech would like a word with you.

.100+ novels
.60+ tech readouts
.100+ field manual/era reports/handbooks/field reports/hot spots/campaign books

 Blackie wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Well, the Hobby is: Painting, collecting, building, playing, lore.

Not GW. I don't need them to enjoy the hobby, a realisation that i made not too long ago, and encouraged with the legendening of my main army.

I agree, that's true for me too.

I'm not really a tabletop gamer, I like all the parts of the hobby and if 40k isn't good enough for me I simply stop playing for a while and I dedicate my spare time to the other parts of the hobbies, or even to the other different hobbies that I have.

So while I'm not interested in playing anything that isn't GW, because my desire to play a miniature wargame and to prove my self a good player isn't that strong, I'm also ok with quitting from gaming, even for years, if the current set of rules doesn't satisfy me. I fact, I've done it several times since I started the hobby in 1999 and never got frustrated about GW.

Having said that I think the current version of 40k is one of the best moments for the game, and I don't play only because of the pandemic.

I disagree with the current 40k being the best it was but that is a discussion to be had about broad strokes.

I also think that's what you describe is more like not being frustrated with 40k as a hobby as a whole(lore, models, game rules etc.) and not not being frustrated with GW.

Infact, i think there's a lot of reasons to be frustrated with GW the company and it's influence over the game recently, including IH supplement, and oiecemeal rule sales and DLC/ that breaks the game in many ways cue DE.

Indeed though, if you find yourself frustrated switching the game can help and is probably one of the best things to do if only to see other systems and rulesets.
The problem there however is, do you find a game and community? Historicals are f.e. relatively easy to find, since they are basically the bigger part of the hobby of wargaming, but sci-fi / fantasy, it's nigh impossible to escape GW in many ways due to the size they have within that niche.

I think there are many justified reasons to throw vitriol and salt torwards GW, that doesn't mean that their universes are bad though or that people can't enjoy the game system, or point out the obvious impact gw's corporate greed structure has on the quality of the rules...

In the end i think players should also take the initiative more often and just decide when there's enough.