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 waefre_1 wrote:
Vostroyans are supposed to be more late-19th Century Prussians


What?? Not even close (unless you meant to say Russians, in which case closer but still not accurate). Theres a mix of various mostly eastern european influences there, but Vostroyans are probably the only distinctly grimdark non-historical guard regiment out there (and indeed the design brief for them was supposedly to make them exactly that).

The Mordians are typically regarded as the Prussian rip-off regiment, though I recall hearing that the design brief for them was based off USMC dress uniforms instead.

WW1 general trench fighters (there's elements of French and British uniforms in Death Korps designs as well as German)


Its like 90% French.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 02:07:51


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ccs wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
Because they wouldn't sell as well as the other codex armies.

Anyone who says they would is making the mistake of thinking the internet is a accurate reflection of the community at large rather than the vocal minority that it actually is.


(Shrugs) they'd sell perfectly fine if GW decided "This is one of the two styles of Guard we're offering in plastic.".
I mean that would be true regardless of what Regiment they are. It could be Tallarn and it would sell if it was a full plastic range. What is your point?
   
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They never released a Plasma Rifle Mordian, the only one you see online is the rare prototype recast.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
Funny part is, additionally, that it always seems like people forget that the metal boxes included a Heavy Weapons Team more often than not.

Cadians and Catachans had to buy them separately.

... What?
Cadians got a heavy bolter, Cat's got a missile launcher.
   
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 BlackoCatto wrote:
They never released a Plasma Rifle Mordian, the only one you see online is the rare prototype recast.


Isn't it the same with the vallhalan plasma gunner, they are recast a lot too. Specially by all the people that make winter themed armies.

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 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Because millions of guardsmen doing their duty and getting all well dead in the face and dying from violence to the point they’re no longer alive on account they’ve all been brutally slayed to death until they’ve snuffed it from being blown apart is hardly a defining feature of any given regiment?


Catachan got their own in the past, beats every Chapter Codex Marines get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
GW used to sell several different looking metal regiments, they did not apparently sell well enough to justify keeping them around beyond catachan and cadian. maybe one day they will bring a few back and take dkok form forgeworld or just the same aestetic... but i kind of doubt it.


There has been no evidence to support the theory of them not selling well officially. As for example I have been told by a local store manager that the molds had gone bad.


molds do break, but if a line is profitable enough they make new molds. there is a reason they kept making space marine tac squads despite going through i am sure hundreds of molds as the wear out. Nowadays with molds being much cheaper to make than they used to be i hope they do bring back other legions though as the initial investment is quite lower. though with so many people making custom bits and how cheap 3d printing high quality minis can be they may have missed the window there, i see a lot of cool custom guardsman running around on local tables

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Because millions of guardsmen doing their duty and getting all well dead in the face and dying from violence to the point they’re no longer alive on account they’ve all been brutally slayed to death until they’ve snuffed it from being blown apart is hardly a defining feature of any given regiment?


Catachan got their own in the past, beats every Chapter Codex Marines get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
GW used to sell several different looking metal regiments, they did not apparently sell well enough to justify keeping them around beyond catachan and cadian. maybe one day they will bring a few back and take dkok form forgeworld or just the same aestetic... but i kind of doubt it.


There has been no evidence to support the theory of them not selling well officially. As for example I have been told by a local store manager that the molds had gone bad.


molds do break, but if a line is profitable enough they make new molds. there is a reason they kept making space marine tac squads despite going through i am sure hundreds of molds as the wear out. Nowadays with molds being much cheaper to make than they used to be i hope they do bring back other legions though as the initial investment is quite lower. though with so many people making custom bits and how cheap 3d printing high quality minis can be they may have missed the window there, i see a lot of cool custom guardsman running around on local tables


I would guess they probably only wore through a handful of tac. marine molds at most. Steel molds used for plastic kits can last anywhere from ten thousand shots to several million depending on its design, metal quality, etc. whereas the rubber molds used for metal/finecast might only last somewhere between 20 and 5000 cycles depending on the design, etc. I would guess that the tac marine molds were good for about a million cycles each, I somewhat doubt that they ever produced a million copies of any of the tactical marine kits though. Apparently indomitus was their single best selling sku in company history and they only produced 120-150 thousand copies of it. That means that they never sold more than that number of any of their tactical marine kits. Then again they had multiple tactical marine kit SKUs at any time because of the chapter specific variants that they designed, as well as additional tactical marine sprues sold in start collectings and battleforce sets, etc.

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Pilum wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Funny part is, additionally, that it always seems like people forget that the metal boxes included a Heavy Weapons Team more often than not.

Cadians and Catachans had to buy them separately.

... What?
Cadians got a heavy bolter, Cat's got a missile launcher.

The plastic boxed sets have no Heavy Weapons Team in there.

That was the subject initially replied to, and continued in the quote you have there.

Comparing the metal boxed sets to the plastic Cadian/Catachan sets, as someone claimed that the metal boxes were $100 per squad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 14:12:18


 
   
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Fair enough Kan, I'll go back to sleep then!
   
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Be aware, it is now $45 for a Cadian box now

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Pilum wrote:
Fair enough Kan, I'll go back to sleep then!

You're fine, it happens sometimes when there's quote-frenzies going on.
   
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Could it be that GW are reluctant to produce any new IG faction (in addition to the other reasons posted) because the sheer variety of model possibilities outweighs the potential benefits?

There are several Marine factions but they all have the same base power-armour model. A new faction could consist of simply a set of shoulder pads and a unique character. You can go further with some unique units but they are all based on that initial power armour or Terminator Armour. Maybe they're going a bit off that with some of the new Primaris stuff however.

With the DKK however they'll have to be created entirely from scratch. You can't just use the Cadians or Catachans as a base as the aesthetic is totally different. You'd have to start from scratch designing and producing models, and are there really enough DKK fans to warrant this? In my entire time playing 40k I think I've seen 3 DKK armies, of which 1 was recast. I can't imagine GW possibly making a profit from that endeavour.

   
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Why don’t DKOK have a Codex? Because the number of people who talk about definiteky starting DKOK is infinitely larger than those who actually bought an army from GW, so they discontinued half the models.

 Stormonu wrote:
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Kanluwen wrote:You forget that up until the Cadians and Steel Legions, the heavy weapons more/less shared the same crew figures.

Autocannons and Heavy Bolters were fairly easy swaps. Lascannons, Missiles, and Mortars were a different story though.

You're spot on about the "not every regiment got every special weapon", but it never really mattered that much since people could source the parts easy.


Fair enough, I actually kind of forgot about that with the heavy weapons.

JohnnyHell wrote:Why don’t DKOK have a Codex? Because the number of people who talk about definiteky starting DKOK is infinitely larger than those who actually bought an army from GW, so they discontinued half the models.


I mean, to be fair, if they weren't 72$ a squad, I would probably buy a few boxes. For guardsman type models I think 40$ for 10 is about my limit, outside of maybe a one off buy here or there or something that has been out of print for a decade.
   
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 kurhanik wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You forget that up until the Cadians and Steel Legions, the heavy weapons more/less shared the same crew figures.

Autocannons and Heavy Bolters were fairly easy swaps. Lascannons, Missiles, and Mortars were a different story though.

You're spot on about the "not every regiment got every special weapon", but it never really mattered that much since people could source the parts easy.


Fair enough, I actually kind of forgot about that with the heavy weapons.

JohnnyHell wrote:Why don’t DKOK have a Codex? Because the number of people who talk about definiteky starting DKOK is infinitely larger than those who actually bought an army from GW, so they discontinued half the models.


I mean, to be fair, if they weren't 72$ a squad, I would probably buy a few boxes. For guardsman type models I think 40$ for 10 is about my limit, outside of maybe a one off buy here or there or something that has been out of print for a decade.


maybe but it's a good point that GW has sales figures for Kreig and obviously the figures wheren't that great

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Spoiler:
 kurhanik wrote:
warmaster21 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
GW used to sell several different looking metal regiments, they did not apparently sell well enough to justify keeping them around beyond catachan and cadian. maybe one day they will bring a few back and take dkok form forgeworld or just the same aestetic... but i kind of doubt it.


they were pretty much unaffordable. it was like here you can buy this plastic box of cadian or catachan guardsman for 30$ or you can buy these 10 mordian ironguard for 100$ (i dont remember what they cost but it was considerably more than the plastic guardsman) in a time when you needed 30-50 guardsman per TROOP CHOICE becuase of platoons.


They were up until the last sold for 35$ each, I think one of them may have been 40$ at the end? I think that was Tallarn but don't quote me on that.

At the time of their removal, a Cadian squad was 29$ I believe. Its actually mildly amusing that Cadians are now more expensive than Steel Legion.

Kanluwen wrote:Funny part is, additionally, that it always seems like people forget that the metal boxes included a Heavy Weapons Team more often than not.

Cadians and Catachans had to buy them separately.


While true (except Valhallans which I don't think had one in the 10 man set but I could be wrong), it was always the same heavy weapon and if you don't want it you are SOL. Its nice that Steel Legion is still sold, but when 3 of the 10 models are taken up with a Grenade Launcher, a Missile Launcher, and a Missile Loader, you need some conversion work in order to make it work. The other option was to buy individual models for like 9$ I think for a single special weapon (I am pretty sure I remember Steel Legion Plasma Gunner at that price), or 10-15$ for a single heavy weapon but only a single loadout. Also not every regiment got every special weapon - it could be converted up, but if memory serves Steel Legion never got Melta or Flamers, Valhallan never got Plasma, etc.

So the sets were great if it had the loadout you wanted, otherwise you needed to buy multiple boxes or do conversions.

Compare to Cadians where, in a pinch, you can get a single Heavy Weapon's Team/Squad box and a regular Infantry box and spread the goodies around to get a decent number of heavy weapons out fast.

Griping aside, the alternate regiments had a ton of character to them and helped to split up the look of the guard range nicely. It would be nice if GW either brought some of them back or came up with a new one.


For Special Weapons: Valhallan and Mordian never got their plasma gun, Tallarn never got their sniper rifle, and the old metal Cadian never got their Lieutenant. Can't recall if the Vostroyan missed out on any, but they were a later range. Presumably, the Praetorian also missed out on their plasma as they were just hat swaps for the Mordian line. I think the Vostroyan and/or the Steel Legion may have been missing one of the Heavy Weapons, but I can't recall those as specifically.

That aside, in those days it wasn't as easy to replace the weapon a model came with as it was often a one-piece model. But if you really wanted a certain weapon, you could order what you wanted a lot easier and do some simple conversion work. I myself have some well done Flamer-to-Plasma Mordian conversions that I picked up. Nowadays you generally have to buy an entire box to get the gun you want, unless you're lucky enough to be playing SM in which case you can buy a set of them... in Finecast. Of course, there is always the secondary market for such things too, but that's not exactly the most reliable for availability, cost, quality, etc.

Side note, yeah, it's absolutely hilarious that GW is sneakily admitting that the old metal models are not inherently more expensive than the plastic with the Steel Legion being $35 while the Cadian have been languishing in plastic at $36 for a long time now. They're soon to get a price jump up to $45 for an extra sprue of weapon options they should have had for more than a decade and a couple squads worth of head variants. I'd really rather they toss the weapons in for $5 and sell the heads separately as an upgrade for $5 since I already don't know what to do with all the extra heads I have, much less another handfull per box. I guess they'll just be more SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!

No really, at this rate by the time I finish my IG I'll have enough left over heads to build myself a new desk chair!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 06:05:38


 
   
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Be in mind Squats were well... "Squatted" not because of profit but changing direction of the game, on record, it was stated that they didn't see them gelling with the game anymore.

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 SergentSilver wrote:
Spoiler:
 kurhanik wrote:
warmaster21 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
GW used to sell several different looking metal regiments, they did not apparently sell well enough to justify keeping them around beyond catachan and cadian. maybe one day they will bring a few back and take dkok form forgeworld or just the same aestetic... but i kind of doubt it.


they were pretty much unaffordable. it was like here you can buy this plastic box of cadian or catachan guardsman for 30$ or you can buy these 10 mordian ironguard for 100$ (i dont remember what they cost but it was considerably more than the plastic guardsman) in a time when you needed 30-50 guardsman per TROOP CHOICE becuase of platoons.


They were up until the last sold for 35$ each, I think one of them may have been 40$ at the end? I think that was Tallarn but don't quote me on that.

At the time of their removal, a Cadian squad was 29$ I believe. Its actually mildly amusing that Cadians are now more expensive than Steel Legion.

Kanluwen wrote:Funny part is, additionally, that it always seems like people forget that the metal boxes included a Heavy Weapons Team more often than not.

Cadians and Catachans had to buy them separately.


While true (except Valhallans which I don't think had one in the 10 man set but I could be wrong), it was always the same heavy weapon and if you don't want it you are SOL. Its nice that Steel Legion is still sold, but when 3 of the 10 models are taken up with a Grenade Launcher, a Missile Launcher, and a Missile Loader, you need some conversion work in order to make it work. The other option was to buy individual models for like 9$ I think for a single special weapon (I am pretty sure I remember Steel Legion Plasma Gunner at that price), or 10-15$ for a single heavy weapon but only a single loadout. Also not every regiment got every special weapon - it could be converted up, but if memory serves Steel Legion never got Melta or Flamers, Valhallan never got Plasma, etc.

So the sets were great if it had the loadout you wanted, otherwise you needed to buy multiple boxes or do conversions.

Compare to Cadians where, in a pinch, you can get a single Heavy Weapon's Team/Squad box and a regular Infantry box and spread the goodies around to get a decent number of heavy weapons out fast.

Griping aside, the alternate regiments had a ton of character to them and helped to split up the look of the guard range nicely. It would be nice if GW either brought some of them back or came up with a new one.


For Special Weapons: Valhallan and Mordian never got their plasma gun, Tallarn never got their sniper rifle, and the old metal Cadian never got their Lieutenant. Can't recall if the Vostroyan missed out on any, but they were a later range. Presumably, the Praetorian also missed out on their plasma as they were just hat swaps for the Mordian line. I think the Vostroyan and/or the Steel Legion may have been missing one of the Heavy Weapons, but I can't recall those as specifically.

That aside, in those days it wasn't as easy to replace the weapon a model came with as it was often a one-piece model. But if you really wanted a certain weapon, you could order what you wanted a lot easier and do some simple conversion work. I myself have some well done Flamer-to-Plasma Mordian conversions that I picked up. Nowadays you generally have to buy an entire box to get the gun you want, unless you're lucky enough to be playing SM in which case you can buy a set of them... in Finecast. Of course, there is always the secondary market for such things too, but that's not exactly the most reliable for availability, cost, quality, etc.

Side note, yeah, it's absolutely hilarious that GW is sneakily admitting that the old metal models are not inherently more expensive than the plastic with the Steel Legion being $35 while the Cadian have been languishing in plastic at $36 for a long time now. They're soon to get a price jump up to $45 for an extra sprue of weapon options they should have had for more than a decade and a couple squads worth of head variants. I'd really rather they toss the weapons in for $5 and sell the heads separately as an upgrade for $5 since I already don't know what to do with all the extra heads I have, much less another handfull per box. I guess they'll just be more SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!

No really, at this rate by the time I finish my IG I'll have enough left over heads to build myself a new desk chair!


plastic models are cheaper over time with volume than metal ones to produce with mold costs, materials, time etc. the real difference is in how much GW marks them up. its just supply an demand, there is less deman for the older metal sculpts and they already make a profit on them all, they just make more profit on the plastic kits that people want more of.

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Wait, are Cadians really getting bumped to 45$?

That is ridiculous, the kit isn't worth the 36$ they currently charge for it, this sprue is basically the only thing that even remotely makes that high price worth it (and even then, it needs the stipulation "for a GW kit").

I only have the more recent numbers in my head, but I know around 2015 at least the 10 man squad was 29$, then price bumped in 2019 to 35$ I believe, and then bumped up to 36$ last year. He, just kind of funny, at 36$ I was actually thinking I might buy one to see how the various bits looked in person, guess I'll save my cash instead.
   
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 kurhanik wrote:
Wait, are Cadians really getting bumped to 45$?

That is ridiculous, the kit isn't worth the 36$ they currently charge for it, this sprue is basically the only thing that even remotely makes that high price worth it (and even then, it needs the stipulation "for a GW kit").

I only have the more recent numbers in my head, but I know around 2015 at least the 10 man squad was 29$, then price bumped in 2019 to 35$ I believe, and then bumped up to 36$ last year. He, just kind of funny, at 36$ I was actually thinking I might buy one to see how the various bits looked in person, guess I'll save my cash instead.


Yup, according to several sources I occasionally look at, including articles and YT 40K channels.

Here's the SpikeyBits article on it as it's the first one that shows up: https://spikeybits.com/2021/06/gaunts-ghosts-cadians-pricing-confirmed.html

And here's some HQ pics of where your extra $9 per box are going: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/07/warhammer-fest-online-day-5-even-more-warhammer-40000/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have to say, I'm wondering if they'll do something similar to the Catachan box which is still sitting pretty at $35.

Also, looks like they're already making the switch to the new Cadian box as Cadian Shock Troops have been removed from the web store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Side note, I somehow got onto a strange version of the GW store that had the Steel Legion squad marked up to $60. Had some other pricing increases, so here's hoping it wasn't the GW web store beta page where they make sure their new prices are running correctly before updating the retail store.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 13:44:52


 
   
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Right behind you.

You went to the Australian page.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
You went to the Australian page.


Hm, that could be it. I honestly don't know how I would have ended up on the AUS version, but that would make sense.

AUS uses the same $ symbol we do here in the US, right? I think I've noticed that on eBay a few times.
   
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Right behind you.

Yes...and they're $60AUS.

Sometimes it just takes you having followed a link from here on Dakka during preorder days or whatever.
   
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 waefre_1 wrote:
Gonna spoiler this to prevent it looking obnoxious, but as I recall:
Spoiler:

Altima wrote:
stereotypical WW2 Russians complete with fuzzy hats and great coats (Vostroyans and Valhallens, I think?),

Valhallans are WW2 Red Army, Vostroyans are supposed to be more late-19th Century Prussians
Altima wrote:
medieval german trench fighters (DKK),

WW1 general trench fighters (there's elements of French and British uniforms in Death Korps designs as well as German)
Altima wrote:
aliens colonial marines (cadians), rambo jungle fighters (catachans),

Yep
Altima wrote:
whatever the armaggedon steel legions are supposed to resemble,

I want to say Wehrmacht, though I'm not sure - that may get tossed around as much for the whole "every squad gets a mechanized transport" shtick
Altima wrote:
aliens colonial marines but with jetpacks (elysian drop troops),

early/mid Cold War French paratroops
Altima wrote:
turn of the century dress uniforms (Mordians),

Yeah, though IIRC there are plenty of similar dress uniforms still in use
Altima wrote:
and french legionnaire desert raiders (Tallarns, they also really hate Chaos).

Sort of, Tallarn are as much Lawrence of Arabia generic-Arabic-Bedouin as FFL/WW2 North African Campaign


The old 90s metal Cadians were WW2 German infantry; the webbing, tunics and the helmets are the hints (the helmet is a bit stylised, admittedly). The Catachans from the same era wore the same uniforms, but in a less-regulation way; no tunics or helmets, for example. The Steel Legion are ww2 German paratroopers with gasmasks. Not sure what the Tanith were supposed to be, but culturally they're quite Celtic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Funny part is, additionally, that it always seems like people forget that the metal boxes included a Heavy Weapons Team more often than not.

Cadians and Catachans had to buy them separately.


Because in 2nd edition, having a heavy weapon team as part of an infantry squad was useful. You could separate it off and it'd sit on a hill shooting people while the rest of the squad - with the lasguns and special weapon - moved up to take objectives. When they ditched that rule and made the entire squad stand still to fire the heavy weapon, suddenly having a mortar and a flamer (the Valhallan box) in one squad wasn't much good.

The army list in the Imperial Armour Vraks books wasn't really the Death Korps of Krieg list - it was specifically the Death Korps of Krieg Siege Regiment army list. There was the Assault Brigade in The Fall of Orpheus, but you can perfectly well use Death Korps of Krieg miniatures to make a standard Infantry or Tank Regiment using the Astra Militarum codex, which will be more suited to ordinary games of 40k, I'd say.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/12 23:06:46


 
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
Why don’t DKOK have a Codex? Because the number of people who talk about definiteky starting DKOK is infinitely larger than those who actually bought an army from GW, so they discontinued half the models.

I am in this post and I don't like it.
   
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Wait, are Cadians really getting bumped to 45$?

That is ridiculous, the kit isn't worth the 36$ they currently charge for it, this sprue is basically the only thing that even remotely makes that high price worth it (and even then, it needs the stipulation "for a GW kit").

I only have the more recent numbers in my head, but I know around 2015 at least the 10 man squad was 29$, then price bumped in 2019 to 35$ I believe, and then bumped up to 36$ last year. He, just kind of funny, at 36$ I was actually thinking I might buy one to see how the various bits looked in person, guess I'll save my cash instead.


A squad of 10 Cadians are going to be $77 here in Australia. A Leman Russ for perspective is $83, a Chimera is $66.

Pretty sure the old Cadian 2003 Battleforce box was $145 - 150 Australian, which had 20 Guardsmen, 3 Heavy Weapon Teams, a Leman Russ, and terrain. Now just 20 Guardsmen is more expensive than that box.
   
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 kurhanik wrote:
Wait, are Cadians really getting bumped to 45$?...


When I started playing Dire Avengers were $30 for ten. The exact same models are now $35 for five.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 23:42:39


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