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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Sea-bass, Im not intending to talk about the common occurrence of seeing 1 or 2 dreads in most every space-marine army, altho that is a good topic to potentially discuss, I'm talking mostly about a new meta of people bringing lists that consists of almost all dreadnoughts, mostly consisting savely of a few buffing characters and/or smashy characters to run along side them.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






yukishiro1 wrote:
When we're talking about dreads, obviously we're talking about the good ones, not the bad ones. There are indeed many bad dreads. But those are just bad generally, it's not like they're great vs something but bad vs DE, they're just bad period.



Eh, to be fair if you define "dreads" that widely you might as well say VEHICLES

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You aren't going to see that, there aren't enough good dreads to make that work with the rule of 3. There are a couple dread-heavy lists that work and are moderately competitive - Custodes and Ultramarines can both do dread-heavy lists that are pretty effective - but none of them that are strong enough to take over the game.
   
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I dont think dreads (especially space-marine ones) were hit as bad as vehicles in general
   
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I won't lie, Telemons are easily my faction (Custodes)'s best unit, by a wide margin. Followed only by it's other FW dreadnaughts. If you want to hurt Custodes, you nerf the dreads.

I don't envy GW's rules team here. They created so much unit type diversity, that it's impossible to make them all actually viable and maintain their uniqueness. What is the difference between a Telemon and a Knight? Or what is the difference between a Relic Leviathan and one of their Heavy tanks?

There is so much diversity that everything is starting to blend together stat wise, or even worse, bloat the rules even further with increasingly bad special rules.
   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I won't lie, Telemons are easily my faction (Custodes)'s best unit, by a wide margin. Followed only by it's other FW dreadnaughts. If you want to hurt Custodes, you nerf the dreads.

I don't envy GW's rules team here. They created so much unit type diversity, that it's impossible to make them all actually viable and maintain their uniqueness. What is the difference between a Telemon and a Knight? Or what is the difference between a Relic Leviathan and one of their Heavy tanks?

There is so much diversity that everything is starting to blend together stat wise, or even worse, bloat the rules even further with increasingly bad special rules.


yeah, i dont envy them either. Game development i used to think was really easy until I got a chance to get to know a few game developers and I learned that everyone is a games designer, until they arent.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Meh dreadnoughts vs tanks really should generally be an easy distinction, and they've done kinda OK doing that so far (core vs not-core, can have melee weapons).

Regarding Volkite contemptors--they're good because they just don't have many--or any, really--"bad" matchups. Every other weapon will be strong vs something and weak-to-terrible vs something else. The number of shots, mortal wounds, and non-degrading profile, CORE, and duty eternal dmg reduction just creates a consistency that tournament players find attractive. It's the best all around shooting dreadnought.

It's not that it's overpowered AT ALL, though. Look at the other ranged weapons that contemptors and boxnauts can mount--they mostly have severe flaws, whether that be range or damage. One would think that twin multi-melta contemptor would be king if we believed forum warriors that the multi-melta itself is crazy OP, but the fact is it simply is not OP at all, and it's not even a good option on dreadnoughts because of their limited movement. Lascannons have the worthless d6 damage still. Autocannons and heavy bolters are just OK vs limited defensive profiles. Assault cannons (kheres included) have short range. Oldmarine plasma is just too swingy with d3 shots to be worth firing and possibly taking mortal wounds. The conversion beamer has been absolutely taken to the woodshed with nerfs, and it wasn't even that good before!

Deredeo is expensive and not CORE.

Ironclad I find interesting--I could see these maybe doing work in the near future vs lots of T3 infantry and having toughness 8. They're a bit expensive for what they are, though.

All this adds up to just Redemptors and Volkite Contemptors being used.

You can count Invictors also if you want, but that's a specific current meta pick in Ultramarines vs Drukhari and AdMech.
   
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Invictors are pretty good in Ultramarines vs everyone, but vastly less good in any other chapter.
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

What makes them better for Ultramarines specifically?

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord






yukishiro1 wrote:
Invictors are pretty good in Ultramarines vs everyone, but vastly less good in any other chapter.

Ultras redeploy stratagem is the only reason they have any viability.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
Invictors are pretty good in Ultramarines vs everyone, but vastly less good in any other chapter.


They're "ok" vs most. If Drukhari wasn't (arguably currently) top dog I don't think they'd be taken.

They're taken in Ultramarines because: Autocannons are actually really good vs Raiders specifically and they can be deployed hyper-aggressively turn one and then the UM Rapid Redeply strat can be used if you don't go first.
   
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Mississippi

I think they should add this rule to Bikes and Terminators, at least. Might as well do all vehicles, except maybe fliers and their paper-thin armor.

Actually, I think -1 Dam is a bad idea to do specifically on dreadnoughts alone. Why are dreadnoughts so special? Why weren't they just given a couple more wounds and/or better armor save or such?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 22:09:41


It never ends well 
   
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Wicked Ghast




 Stormonu wrote:
I think they should add this rule to Bikes and Terminators, at least. Might as well do all vehicles, except maybe fliers and their paper-thin armor.

Actually, I think -1 Dam is a bad idea to do specifically on dreadnoughts alone. Why are dreadnoughts so special? Why weren't they just given a couple more wounds and/or better armor save or such?


I think they were trying to show the determination and absolute dedication that a marine of that status would have. I envision the marine inside the sarcophagus taking damage, the heat becoming intolerable, red lights and warning klaxons going off all over the place, and he's bleeding...badly...

he knows it's over, but it isn't going to stop him from this one...last...act...

And I *think* this was what they were trying to show on the tabletop. I like the rule for dreadnoughts. I wish models with the "machine spirit" keywords also had this ability, but for different reasons. to articulate those, I would look up the Baldermort's Guide to Warhammer 40,000 video on Land Raiders. He does a better job of it than I could ever do of describing it (and if you don't know who that is, check out his youtube channel on 40k lore. he is amazing)
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Seabass wrote:
And I *think* this was what they were trying to show on the tabletop. I like the rule for dreadnoughts. I wish models with the "machine spirit" keywords also had this ability, but for different reasons. to articulate those, I would look up the Baldermort's Guide to Warhammer 40,000 video on Land Raiders. He does a better job of it than I could ever do of describing it (and if you don't know who that is, check out his youtube channel on 40k lore. he is amazing)


That's actually a fantastic idea for machine spirit vehicles. When they drop to 0 wounds or less, they aren't destroyed but stay alive, no matter how much damage they take. During their owner's next moral phase they then finally die. While at 0 wounds or less, they no longer count for objectives or can perform any actions.

Seems like a perfect representation of the fluff and would finally make those metal bawkses worth their points.

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Regular Dakkanaut




Cool, but what if your entire faction is one huge "machine spirit"?

*chitinous noises*
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I don't think the hive mind bothers with keeping a single replaceable organism alive

On a more serious note, there are quite a few things in the universe famous for fighting way beyond their actual death, such things could of course have similar a rule*.

*a rule that is worded exactly the same, with a different fluff justification

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 08:52:50


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




 Jidmah wrote:
Seabass wrote:
And I *think* this was what they were trying to show on the tabletop. I like the rule for dreadnoughts. I wish models with the "machine spirit" keywords also had this ability, but for different reasons. to articulate those, I would look up the Baldermort's Guide to Warhammer 40,000 video on Land Raiders. He does a better job of it than I could ever do of describing it (and if you don't know who that is, check out his youtube channel on 40k lore. he is amazing)


That's actually a fantastic idea for machine spirit vehicles. When they drop to 0 wounds or less, they aren't destroyed but stay alive, no matter how much damage they take. During their owner's next moral phase they then finally die. While at 0 wounds or less, they no longer count for objectives or can perform any actions.

Seems like a perfect representation of the fluff and would finally make those metal bawkses worth their points.


Man, I completely LOVE that idea! even if it was an upgrade you had to pay a CP to put on it or something, that would be awesome. (while we're wishlisting i also wish Machine Spirit vehicles had a rule that they never go below their second profile regardless of how many wounds remaining, but they kind of do that already with a strat)


OOOOO.....you could even give them cool "death frenzy" abilities. like a Nurgle LR would cause D3 MW when it's removed to enemy units, or the tzeench one can fire again or has a chance to regain a wound or something. I don't know what those abilities would be, but it would really fluff up those metal bawkses and make them something truly unique on the battlefield.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 15:25:31


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Stormonu wrote:
I think they should add this rule to Bikes and Terminators, at least. Might as well do all vehicles, except maybe fliers and their paper-thin armor.

Actually, I think -1 Dam is a bad idea to do specifically on dreadnoughts alone. Why are dreadnoughts so special? Why weren't they just given a couple more wounds and/or better armor save or such?
When you want to give half the game a -1 damage taken ability, maybe its easier to simply makes guns less lethal.


This is what GW constantly does, apply band-aid rule fixes that pile up and bloat the game instead of fixing the fundamental issue that makes the band-aid needed in the first place.
   
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Sadly if we make all tank like vehicles the -1 to damage, that will mean that anti-elite weapons that do flat 2 and 3 damage will become useless against tank like vehicles, thus making them rarer vs dedicated anti-tank weapons, and thus making marine (elite infantry) armies stronger, which we all know Games-workshop loves to make marines strong.. so maybe it would work for games-workshop?
   
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a_typical_hero wrote:
What makes them better for Ultramarines specifically?


Redeploy, so you can deploy them super aggressively to take advantage of going first, but then if you don't go first, you can redploy them back to safety behind terrain. In other chapters if you deploy aggressively and don't go first they just die while doing nothing except letting your opponent get free charge movement off them.

   
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Fixture of Dakka







bat702 wrote:
Sadly if we make all tank like vehicles the -1 to damage, that will mean that anti-elite weapons that do flat 2 and 3 damage will become useless against tank like vehicles, thus making them rarer vs dedicated anti-tank weapons, and thus making marine (elite infantry) armies stronger, which we all know Games-workshop loves to make marines strong.. so maybe it would work for games-workshop?


No, it would mean you have to make a decision between anti-elite weapons and anti-tank weapons - they should be (mostly) distinct in terms of niches, and a TAC list should be fielding both. Arguably, it would be better (if inelegant) design that we currently have.

And it isn't like taking 1 or 2 damage a shot off reliably isn't still useful.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
 
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