Switch Theme:

New dreadnought meta?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I still think space marine dreadnoughts became a bit OP with their new -1 damage rule. This changed abit with deathguard also gaining -1 to damage so its more "meta common" to face off against. Even still there seems to be abit of players playing armies consisting of almost all dreadnoughts, not very fluffy, but still also not very hypercompetitive. Any thoughts on the trend?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It’s awesome. Dreadnoughts are awesome and I approve. They’re not OP, simply good all around units. If there’s something that DOESN’T need adjusted, it’s dreadnoughts. I feel like they’ve finally nailed them—venerable ancients with good shooting and can smash something in combat.

And I must add: the term OP gets used WAY TOO MUCH. Just because something is good and possibly even an army’s best option doesn’t mean it’s OP. Just so tired of that usage. It’s hard to have a conversation about units when you start with that wording (and it’s clearly and self evidently false)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 01:52:38


 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Quasistellar wrote:
It’s awesome. Dreadnoughts are awesome and I approve. They’re not OP, simply good all around units. If there’s something that DOESN’T need adjusted, it’s dreadnoughts. I feel like they’ve finally nailed them—venerable ancients with good shooting and can smash something in combat.

And I must add: the term OP gets used WAY TOO MUCH. Just because something is good and possibly even an army’s best option doesn’t mean it’s OP. Just so tired of that usage. It’s hard to have a conversation about units when you start with that wording (and it’s clearly and self evidently false)


I mean, have you read the average bat702 thread? This is how they usually start.

As for dreads being OP. For an OP unit roughly 100pts they have one bog standard heavy weapon and a decent CCW on a fairly slow platform. The only thing they really have is a decent durability against high volume mid damage weapons.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I mean, Im glad I have a fan? Also I'd like to point out again, that to me an army of nothing but dreadnoughts (which are usually implied to be a rarity) is abit unfluffy

I will also like to add the point that the meta has been favoring flat 2 and 3 damage weapons to take down marines respectively, which obviously favors the dreadnoughts new -1 damage rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 02:23:57


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




-1D on 8-9W models is a great rule, who woulda thunk it?

Dread spam is only going to get more popular too, thanks to the completely misguided change to thin the ranks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 03:17:02


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Regular Dnaughts are actually very rarely seen in competitive games.

You see mostly Redemptors and Contemptors.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




My dreadnoughts don't have the -1 to D, and I still use two. But then again I used two in 8th ed too. They work okey.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






bat702 wrote:
I mean, Im glad I have a fan? Also I'd like to point out again, that to me an army of nothing but dreadnoughts (which are usually implied to be a rarity) is abit unfluffy

I will also like to add the point that the meta has been favoring flat 2 and 3 damage weapons to take down marines respectively, which obviously favors the dreadnoughts new -1 damage rules.


It's niche and uncommon, but it is not unfluffy, a whole dreadnought army was deployed in the third war for armageddon at the The Battle for Gate IX.

My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog 
   
Made in au
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Australia

Dreadnoughts are definitely not OP. They're decent, but hardly game-breaking.

Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

I don't see any trend actually. Fielding 1 or 2 dreads in 2000 points lists doesn't equal to "dreadnought meta".


 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

bat702 wrote:
I will also like to add the point that the meta has been favoring flat 2 and 3 damage weapons to take down marines respectively, which obviously favors the dreadnoughts new -1 damage rules.

It's a good thing for the game. It encourages people to take dedicated anti-armour weapons and not to rely on the same autocannons or plasma for everything they face. It encourages people to make choices in their army list and hopefully drives the meta towards TAC lists instead of anti-Marines or anti-Drukhari lists. I'm all for rules like this on tanks, monsters and other big stuff.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

Not seeing it, to be honest.

They are fine in a casual environment. They work and won't put you at a disadvantage if you take a few.

If anything most Dreads (exceptions being Relic Contemptor and Redemptor) could need a little boost to become viable options for competitive play.


Grey Knights Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





-1 damage is great when you get hit by weapons designed to kill heavy infantry.

Not so great when you get hit by Multi-Melta's, Dark Lances and more weapons like it in the future.

   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




It's actually pretty good against d3+3 weapons, as it gives dreadnoughts a chance to live through otherwise guaranteed or nearly guaranteed death.

Bumping the number of required failed saves from 2 to 3 or from 3 to 4 is a decent boost in durability.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dreadnoughts ate my neighbors. I hate them because of that. They ruin the local meta of block parties.
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster




I have never "got" meta.

I ran - for fun twice - all dread armies - for and against. They were fun games but scarcely competitive in those days.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I mean, Im glad I have a fan? Also I'd like to point out again, that to me an army of nothing but dreadnoughts (which are usually implied to be a rarity) is abit unfluffy

I will also like to add the point that the meta has been favoring flat 2 and 3 damage weapons to take down marines respectively, which obviously favors the dreadnoughts new -1 damage rules.


It's niche and uncommon, but it is not unfluffy, a whole dreadnought army was deployed in the third war for armageddon at the The Battle for Gate IX.


Is that the one they wrote up as an article in WD waaay back when? Something about 9 dreads holding the field.
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






ccs wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I mean, Im glad I have a fan? Also I'd like to point out again, that to me an army of nothing but dreadnoughts (which are usually implied to be a rarity) is abit unfluffy

I will also like to add the point that the meta has been favoring flat 2 and 3 damage weapons to take down marines respectively, which obviously favors the dreadnoughts new -1 damage rules.


It's niche and uncommon, but it is not unfluffy, a whole dreadnought army was deployed in the third war for armageddon at the The Battle for Gate IX.


Is that the one they wrote up as an article in WD waaay back when? Something about 9 dreads holding the field.


More than 9, maybe 9 in one layer of the defence? It was against a whole force of Ork Killa Kans and Deff Dreads. It was from a white dwarf story though, that is correct.

My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
ccs wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I mean, Im glad I have a fan? Also I'd like to point out again, that to me an army of nothing but dreadnoughts (which are usually implied to be a rarity) is abit unfluffy

I will also like to add the point that the meta has been favoring flat 2 and 3 damage weapons to take down marines respectively, which obviously favors the dreadnoughts new -1 damage rules.


It's niche and uncommon, but it is not unfluffy, a whole dreadnought army was deployed in the third war for armageddon at the The Battle for Gate IX.


Is that the one they wrote up as an article in WD waaay back when? Something about 9 dreads holding the field.


More than 9, maybe 9 in one layer of the defence? It was against a whole force of Ork Killa Kans and Deff Dreads. It was from a white dwarf story though, that is correct.


(Shrugs) maybe. it was a long time ago & I don't even recall what they were fighting.
Just that 9 dreads were specifically involved & that it irritated me for the next several editions that I couldn't legally field that force (because dreads are one of my favorite 40k models).

The heavy detachment + ability to battleforge my force as Astartes + the huge # of dread date sheets (codex or fw) is one of my favorite parts of 8th/9th.

And yes, I have an all dread force.
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





With damage D3+3 becoming more and more common, the -1 to damage is less and less good in my opinion. I mean the -1 is good against the damage 2 weapons that are also becoming prominent, but at the end of the day a dreadnought (or hellbrute when the change comes) is still T7, W8 3+ with no invul. I mean the T7 3+ no invul is considered garbage stats (see predator discussion in other thread), so the -1 really just makes the dreadnought playable, not OP.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




For the fluff part: Weren't there formations for Dread armies such as "march of the ancients"?
I know Chaos had the helbrute pack consisting of 5 helbrutes with one as a character.

So I wouldn't say it's unfluffy depending on the chapter/ legion. For Iron Hands, DG, Space Wolves and a nearly wiped out custom chapter that throws anything left into battle I'd say it's totally fluffy.
   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




yukishiro1 wrote:
-1D on 8-9W models is a great rule, who woulda thunk it?

Dread spam is only going to get more popular too, thanks to the completely misguided change to thin the ranks.



Yeah, I'm sure all of those Mechanicus, DG and Drukhari players are just scared shitless of dreadnought spam...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 01:45:23


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well, if you actually want to go there, dreads are one of the more effective counters to DE, making your statement rather amusing.

You may have misunderstood my post? I don't think it's a problem that dreads are good. Stuff like contemptor volkite dreads should maybe go up like 5-10 points, but no more than that. They're right about where something considered "good" should be.


   
Made in nl
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Karol wrote:
My dreadnoughts don't have the -1 to D, and I still use two. But then again I used two in 8th ed too. They work okey.
thematically one of my favourites and with marines, I always did my best to get one on the table. Good play, here, fun to play against, too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 02:58:33


   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




yukishiro1 wrote:
Well, if you actually want to go there, dreads are one of the more effective counters to DE, making your statement rather amusing.

You may have misunderstood my post? I don't think it's a problem that dreads are good. Stuff like contemptor volkite dreads should maybe go up like 5-10 points, but no more than that. They're right about where something considered "good" should be.




Have you played a dread or two into DE? cause, they die, REALLY fast. 5 raiders with dark lances tend to eat a couple of redemptors very quickly (especially with built-in reroll to hit) (over the course of two turns has been my experience) and hiding from them can be VERY difficult, given their rate of speed. I'm not saying they're bad, not at all, but saying that dreads are going to start popping up everywhere in a competitive scene that is going to have more than a sufficient number of D3+3 damage guns that are either fast enough to find their target or durable enough to wait for them doesn't seem likely.

You'll still continue to see them, of course, because they are great options for marine armies, but I have doubts that we are going to see triple redemptor + other dread lists begin to show up (save for maybe the venerable dreadnought in space wolves, but that's because they can have a 4++.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Relic Volkite Contemptors are extremely effective vs DE. Strong profile for popping both raiders and infantry, and 5 raiders have only about a 30% chance of killing one, rerolls to hit included. The -1 damage actually makes quite a big difference on a 9W profile vs D3+3 damage weapons, as it makes it statistically very unlikely to get two-shot, whereas without the -1D, it would be. It amounts to a quite significant increase in durability.

It is one of the better things the SM book has to try to compete with DE. Pre-nerf it obviously wasn't enough, and I'm not sure it will be post-nerf either, but to say that they aren't effective vs DE is pretty off base.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/14 05:01:00


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The dreadnought list is hugely varied in the current 40k lists that just saying "dreads are good vs DE" is super broad, I can see the typical twin-lascannon or assault cannon standard or venerable dreads being pretty terrible, on a side note, would be really great in 9th to see a twin-assault cannon variant of those old standard dreads
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




When we're talking about dreads, obviously we're talking about the good ones, not the bad ones. There are indeed many bad dreads. But those are just bad generally, it's not like they're great vs something but bad vs DE, they're just bad period.

   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





I don't like dreadnoughts rule, because there's no reason a gakky little box on feet should be as or more resilient than a full tank.

That said, I wouldn't call them OP. There's so much better in the SM codex than them.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




yukishiro1 wrote:
Relic Volkite Contemptors are extremely effective vs DE. Strong profile for popping both raiders and infantry, and 5 raiders have only about a 30% chance of killing one, rerolls to hit included. The -1 damage actually makes quite a big difference on a 9W profile vs D3+3 damage weapons, as it makes it statistically very unlikely to get two-shot, whereas without the -1D, it would be. It amounts to a quite significant increase in durability.

It is one of the better things the SM book has to try to compete with DE. Pre-nerf it obviously wasn't enough, and I'm not sure it will be post-nerf either, but to say that they aren't effective vs DE is pretty off base.


you must've missed the part where I said "I'm not saying they're bad". But even if two volkite contemptors show up in EVERY marine list, does 2 dreadnoughts per space marine list make for a "dreadnought meta"? Because I'm not seeing where it would. And while good, volkite contemptors are only really good in the DE matchup, the jury is still out on their usefulness in the admech matchup, (i guess you can kill skitarii with them) and they are practically useless in the DG matchup. Not seeing this as evolving into a dreadnought meta given the recent secondaries points change, which you cited as the reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
bat702 wrote:
The dreadnought list is hugely varied in the current 40k lists that just saying "dreads are good vs DE" is super broad, I can see the typical twin-lascannon or assault cannon standard or venerable dreads being pretty terrible, on a side note, would be really great in 9th to see a twin-assault cannon variant of those old standard dreads


His comment shouldn't have read "dreads are good vs DE" in my opinion, his comment should have read "this one specific relic contemptor, with this one specific weapon, is really good against DE and not much else".

Dreadnoughts are good, they're fine. but they aren't going to create or significantly influence a meta where an abundance of D3+3 weaponry runs amok, especially where the things that carry them are quick enough to make sure you can't hide from them in the case of raiders or chickens, or they are tough enough to wait you out in the case of the PBC

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/14 13:24:45


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: