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Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






A perfect example of how most CSM operate is the 40k Apocalypse tie-in novel, aptly named Apocalypse. The Word Bearers attack the Odoacer System with several Hosts of Astartes, thousands of Cultists, and summoned Daemons. When they reach the system they also co-opt the local pirates, some of which are Chaos corrupted, to bolster their forces. Chaos corrupts and the longer the people of a world feel unsafe or helpless then the more likely they are to rise up and cause problems for the Imperial side.
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





The thing is, in 40k the focus is usually pretty narrow. You see a lot of squad vs squad or even one-on-one fighting and in that context marines seem extremely effective. If this combat is part of a raid or a mission with a specific objective and the marines can just leave afterwards then that's it, there's not much more to say.
But if this is part of a war on a planetary scale or more, then individual skill becomes way less important than strategy. It doesn't matter if you can kill a lot of guardsmen if you can't cut off their supply lines and/or prevent reinforcements from coming in. It doesn't matter how many places you conquer if you don't have troops to garrison them. It doesn't matter if you're winning on the ground if you can't prevent the navy from bombarding you from orbit.

All of this isn't nearly as exciting as giant dudes disembowelling people with chainsaw-swords, so we pretend that this is the important part.

It would make sense for marines to always have relatively large auxiliary forces attached to their chapters/legions. If you need a hundred guys to man some defensive installation, for example, using marines for that would be a massive waste of resources. Local recruits are usually the solution, but you can never tell how reliable they are.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I always thought it would have made sense for SM chapter to have direct control of an auxiliary force of their own AM regiment or PDF from where ever they base themselves or recruit from.

For larger operations.

But 40K is full of holes, why not just virus bomb your enemy every time, like Horus did all those years ago. Or an orbital bombardment etc.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






SM don't have auxiliary forces because of the Heresy, the Imperial Army was made into the Navy and Militarum because too much power was concentrated on single individuals. Horus had so many Army regiments on his side because he was the one leading them into battle, they weren't loyal to the Imperium, they were loyal to Horus.
As for Virus Bombs, the Imperium needs the planets it attacks. Horus bombed Isstvan to get rid of the Loyalist elements in the SoH, WE, DG, and EC that wouldn't allow or follow the path Horus was to tread. He used Exterminatus which the Imperium does for very specific threats such as overwhelming invasions of Orks, Nids, Crons, Daemons, etc.
Think of it like this, McArthur wanted to drop 50 Atom Bombs on China during the Korean War. Everyone agreed that this was a very bad idea since it would cause more problems than it would solve. It's the same thing for calling Exterminatus on every single planet the Imperium might not win. It's important to remember the Imperium plays the long game, sometimes the very long game. So what if ten planets were lost last week, humanity is the greatest race in the galaxy and we have the God-Emperor on our side, we will eventually win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/02 15:38:10


 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





I understand that everything is spread out as much as possible to avoid repeats of the HH, but allowing space marine chapters to have a few thousand troops with basic weapons shouldn't upset the balance of power within the Imperium, but it might make them a bit more efficient.

This is kind of a moot point anyway since in the fluff the marines almost never run into that sort of manpower problem.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






The thing is that it's a rule but there are exceptions. In the defence of a Fortress a PDF commander will always submit authority to an Astartes. The Ultramar Defence Auxilia is basically the Ultramarines and their Successors personal Militarum regiment as they are better trained than most PDF. But the general idea is that an Astartes should only take command of a theatre for that engagement and even then only at the request of mortal commanders. A regiment of Valhallans or Priory of Argent Shroud might have fought alongside a company of Imperial Fists for a campaign but the Fist Captain would have to be voted as campaign leader rather than just taking over as would happen in the Crusade.
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





There’s a very simple solution. Send forth the guard squad to engage the marines in close assault. Once the lines have met, start danger closing till there’s no more bolter shots incoming. The firepower of the guard is not to be trifled with. Other than the Iron Warriors, few legions could afford getting caught in a full out shoot out with the imperial guard. Storm of Iron is a great example featuring the guard giving the Iron Warriors about all they want in a siege. It’s a great book for either faction btw.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in gr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
All the things you guys are mentioning are easier to delete for Astartes than the guardsmen are. Devestators or tanks for the tanks, Thunderbirds for the Artillery, etc. Also I really doubt any Ogryn is a "match" for an astartes.


Unless we are talking about a named character or an exalted champion of Khorne or something like that, an angry Ogryn should destroy an Astartes (both loyal and traitor) quite easily in an one-on-one melee. It's basically like a contest between a MMA artist in peak condition and on steroids on one side...and a silverback gorilla on the other side. The gorilla would win.

Writing this, I imagine that Marine vs Ogryn combat must be all the rage in the Commoragh arenas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 09:31:06


 
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




New York City

 Esmer wrote:
Unless we are talking about a named character or an exalted champion of Khorne or something like that, an angry Ogryn should destroy an Astartes (both loyal and traitor) quite easily in an one-on-one melee. It's basically like a contest between a MMA artist in peak condition and on steroids on one side...and a silverback gorilla on the other side. The gorilla would win.

Writing this, I imagine that Marine vs Ogryn combat must be all the rage in the Commoragh arenas.


This isn't Dragonball Z where a Space Marine or an Ogryn can be measured by their power level. Either Ogryn have a genetic advantage against ALL Space Marines, or they do not. Whether they are an exalted champion or a named character or not. Of course experienced and grizzled Astartes wold have more knowledge than a less experienced one, but you said it yourself. Its matching a fighter against a gorilla. No matter how much better off a champion is rather than a newly initiated Astartes, the odds are heavily not in his favor.

Fight for our dead! Death to their living! And claim them in the name of the Emperor!
Lego Warhammer 40,000. Someone make it happen. 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






They are since named characters can't lose to faceless mooks, which is what I believe Esmer was referring to.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 LumenPraebeo wrote:
This isn't Dragonball Z where a Space Marine or an Ogryn can be measured by their power level.

I mean yeah it kinda is. The gap in combat prowess between Kharn and a random unnamed CSM with a chainsword is a lot bigger than the gap between any real humans.
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




AZ

Also the stories you read are pretty much propaganda pieces. IRL one Astartes could probably take on maybe 10-12 trained guard or Cadian equivalent. 1 melta/plasma, a well placed or a couple well placed las headshots, or a krak grenade will kill an Astarte. They are human, albeit genetically modified super humans but they still bleed…. If it bleeds it dies.

With that being said, Astartes are smart. And tactically geniuses. Usually they won’t hit a line of guard or equivalent head on. They’d get wrecked if they charged a well equipped company of guard with special weapons, heavy weapons, and support (super heavy tanks, regular tanks, air, etc…) They specialize in drop assaults, raids, etc… they aren’t going to be in the open. Think modern day military tactics. Now combine that with weapons, equipment, logistics, and maneuverability we couldn’t imagine and throw power armor in there on top of it all.

Astartes is a really cool fan film but like someone said already. They were confined, had poor training (they missed with the auto cannon, the rocket, and their fire was not massed), and they were ill equipped. No plasma, no melta, 1 rocket, 1 multi laser, and 1 auto cannon (which was placed horribly… poor training). The Astartes hit exactly how they were supposed to. Fast, enclosed quarters where their numbers didn’t mean anything and relentless.

As far as the pictures of the .50 and 25mm shell you posted. I think a bolt more closely resembles a .50 Beowulf then traditional .50 cartridges that most people think of. Or maybe along the line if a shotgun slug that also acts as a mini rocket. So think a standard 12 gauge shell or look up .50 Beowulf. Now imagine that with super future gun powder and the bullet itself being a mini rocket like the gyro ammo of old. That’s what a bolt would realistically look like.



 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I feel like if we start comparing Caliber sizes we will all come up short of the mark. /jokes

But in honesty - I fail to see how a single level 1 mook Iron Snake can singly take down 3-5(Only referred to as a hunting pack) of Primuls (Dark Eldar Raiders) with nothing but a combat knife, but a single Ogryn would cause issues. Also we have entire fluff sections where Newly born Primaris take apart fully prepped and loaded combat servitors with nothing but knives.

Are we saying that a lone Ogryn would be the equal of a Custodian?
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




New York City

usmcmidn wrote:
They are human, albeit genetically modified super humans but they still bleed…. If it bleeds it dies.

With that being said, Astartes are smart. And tactically geniuses. Usually they won’t hit a line of guard or equivalent head on. They’d get wrecked if they charged a well equipped company of guard with special weapons, heavy weapons, and support (super heavy tanks, regular tanks, air, etc…) They specialize in drop assaults, raids, etc… they aren’t going to be in the open. Think modern day military tactics. Now combine that with weapons, equipment, logistics, and maneuverability we couldn’t imagine and throw power armor in there on top of it all.


Yes, this is how I like to look at the 40K universe. Not some fanboy fantasizing about how a named character is head and sholders faster, stronger, and more tactically attuned than everyone around him/her.

Fight for our dead! Death to their living! And claim them in the name of the Emperor!
Lego Warhammer 40,000. Someone make it happen. 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Why waste all these lovely potential chaos recruits? Against normal guardsmen, the best chaos tactics is not a frontal assault into millions of defenders. The best tactics is to use chaos to corrupt and turn all of them. Then when half of them are fighting for their lives against the other half, and enough blood has been spilled, rituals open the warp and millions of demons pour forth.

Then you have a fully corrupted world where the only solution left is Exterminatus.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





With the exception of the black legion I can’t see why CSM would come into conflict with guard on a large scale. Black legion do crusades so they take over planets and big targets but they will do this with big cultist armies and traitor knights, Titans etc.

If CSM needed to get rid of a battalion of guards men why not divert an ork waaaaagh toward the planet or get a cult setup and then tip off the inquisition. This is mor like CSM thinking and why they are so much more fun the loyalists
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Because killing is fun. That's why you invade planets and murder thousands of Guardsmen.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





mrFickle wrote:
With the exception of the black legion I can’t see why CSM would come into conflict with guard on a large scale. Black legion do crusades so they take over planets and big targets but they will do this with big cultist armies and traitor knights, Titans etc.

If CSM needed to get rid of a battalion of guards men why not divert an ork waaaaagh toward the planet or get a cult setup and then tip off the inquisition. This is mor like CSM thinking and why they are so much more fun the loyalists


Do you think the black legion are the only legion to run around doing crusades?

first of all the black crusades include EVERYONE just about.

Secondly other legions do their own thing.

A good example of another traitor legion fighting the guard is the Story Storm of Iron.
i've you've not read it it comes highly reccomended

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
Because killing is fun. That's why you invade planets and murder thousands of Guardsmen.


I think this debases CSM and is the problem with the way GW present chaos marines half of the time. They aren’t just a bunch of psychos, it’s alarmist like GW have started to believe the imperiums propaganda that they created for their own fictional game.

There is method in their madness. They have purpose, they aren’t just acting on a bunch of simple instincts. Even if they are seeking excess in their pleasures they are smart with the way they do it otherwise they wouldn’t live long.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





mrFickle wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Because killing is fun. That's why you invade planets and murder thousands of Guardsmen.


I think this debases CSM and is the problem with the way GW present chaos marines half of the time. They aren’t just a bunch of psychos, it’s alarmist like GW have started to believe the imperiums propaganda that they created for their own fictional game.

There is method in their madness. They have purpose, they aren’t just acting on a bunch of simple instincts. Even if they are seeking excess in their pleasures they are smart with the way they do it otherwise they wouldn’t live long.


when has GW ever proptrayed CSMs like this? sure you have the inevitable CSM book where one CSM in the squad is always "too deep into chaos" but by and large they're not depicted as a buncha blood mad idiots.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

BrianDavion wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Because killing is fun. That's why you invade planets and murder thousands of Guardsmen.


I think this debases CSM and is the problem with the way GW present chaos marines half of the time. They aren’t just a bunch of psychos, it’s alarmist like GW have started to believe the imperiums propaganda that they created for their own fictional game.

There is method in their madness. They have purpose, they aren’t just acting on a bunch of simple instincts. Even if they are seeking excess in their pleasures they are smart with the way they do it otherwise they wouldn’t live long.


when has GW ever proptrayed CSMs like this? sure you have the inevitable CSM book where one CSM in the squad is always "too deep into chaos" but by and large they're not depicted as a buncha blood mad idiots.



But they are, thats the problem. Over the years ive read plenty of cases of CSM, of all legions, being depicted in non CSM viewpoint lore as just being world eater berserkers in slightly less red armour. Big, powerful and dangerous, yes, but defeated by the protagonists who use basic tactics and "smarts" against these almost unthinking CSM that lumber slowly like they were fantasy trolls or something. the increasing use of CSM as viewpoint characters is definitely reducing this trend (its hard to root for a one-dimensional madman), but it still seems to happen.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






I mean, World Eaters. Literally all they do is kill. One of the 40k Alpha Legion books makes it very clear that beyond finding the place they want to murder, World Eaters really don't do tactics. Hell, Kharn just floats about from fleet to fleet.

Also, when was the last time you saw a CSM say "oh how I hate killing these Imperial soldiers, truly it is a great sorrow". Nah chief, CSM are good a killing and they like it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 23:45:15


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
I mean, World Eaters. Literally all they do is kill. One of the 40k Alpha Legion books makes it very clear that beyond finding the place they want to murder, World Eaters really don't do tactics. Hell, Kharn just floats about from fleet to fleet.

Also, when was the last time you saw a CSM say "oh how I hate killing these Imperial soldiers, truly it is a great sorrow". Nah chief, CSM are good a killing and they like it.


If it’s in an alpha legion book then aren’t we supposed to assume it’s a lie? I can’t keep up

Yea they enjoy warfare and all it bring but the reason they are so good at it is because the are tactically proficient well beyond modern space marines. The veterans of the long war learned from the primarchs and the emperor himself and have had 10k years to learn more.

If you love war but don’t plan it very well then you won’t be able to love it for long, I assume
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






The World Eaters show up with a huge armada and hundreds of Astartes then just land on the planet and start killing everything, by which I mean everything including other CSM's that are present, and the only time the advance stops is when Kharn walks up to the Imperial Fists Captain leading the defence and immediately kills him, at which point the killing begins again.
And yes most CSM are good at war, it is kind of vital that they are despite what GW would have us believe, but that doesn't mean they won't attack a place for one reason or another. Why should the Iron Warriors care if a planet is fortified to the max? That's a fun weekend holiday for them. A planet with 20 Militarum Regiments and a demi-Company of Astartes? That's a lot of skulls for the Skull Throne.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 14:14:25


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

mrFickle wrote:

AM have a life expectancy of about 10 mins. Heavy losses are expected.

I really, really wish this piece of nonsense would vanish into the aether.

The book "Fifteen Hours"(which was supposed to be the life expectancy of Guardsmen accidentally being dropped into an active warzone with the Orks, on a planet that was entirely overrun) did a lot of damage to the idea of Guardsmen as an actual force. Heavy losses are not to be expected. Commanders who are too free with the expenditure of life risk their own with the Commissiariat.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






 Kanluwen wrote:

I really, really wish this piece of nonsense would vanish into the aether.

The book "Fifteen Hours"(which was supposed to be the life expectancy of Guardsmen accidentally being dropped into an active warzone with the Orks, on a planet that was entirely overrun) did a lot of damage to the idea of Guardsmen as an actual force. Heavy losses are not to be expected. Commanders who are too free with the expenditure of life risk their own with the Commissiariat.

Exactly this.
Will a Militarum Regiment take more casualties than an Astartes Company? Of course, a Regiment is about 5x as large and they baseline humans wearing flak vests compared to Power Armoured genetically engineered super soldiers.
In a battle with 10 full Regiments against a Tyranid tendril? Probably yeah a Guardsman isn't going to last that long but neither is the individual Hormagaunt.
   
Made in gr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





xerxeskingofking wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Because killing is fun. That's why you invade planets and murder thousands of Guardsmen.


I think this debases CSM and is the problem with the way GW present chaos marines half of the time. They aren’t just a bunch of psychos, it’s alarmist like GW have started to believe the imperiums propaganda that they created for their own fictional game.

There is method in their madness. They have purpose, they aren’t just acting on a bunch of simple instincts. Even if they are seeking excess in their pleasures they are smart with the way they do it otherwise they wouldn’t live long.


when has GW ever proptrayed CSMs like this? sure you have the inevitable CSM book where one CSM in the squad is always "too deep into chaos" but by and large they're not depicted as a buncha blood mad idiots.



But they are, thats the problem. Over the years ive read plenty of cases of CSM, of all legions, being depicted in non CSM viewpoint lore as just being world eater berserkers in slightly less red armour. Big, powerful and dangerous, yes, but defeated by the protagonists who use basic tactics and "smarts" against these almost unthinking CSM that lumber slowly like they were fantasy trolls or something. the increasing use of CSM as viewpoint characters is definitely reducing this trend (its hard to root for a one-dimensional madman), but it still seems to happen.


World Eaters have always been a bit schizophrenical in that regard.

On the one hand, they have been flanderized into being raging psychos 48 hours a day who do literally nothing else other than killing or screaming about killing.

On the other hand, they are somehow unmatched melee fighters in both the fluff and the rules. It's an old trope (that many comic books are also guilty of) that being violent and crazy somehow makes you invincible.

You'd think that having a clear head would be a prerequisite for being skilled in combat.

It's like putting a deranged and drugged-up mental health inmate in a one on one against an experienced black belt martial artist. I assume, the latter would win quite effortlessly.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nonetheless there is some truth to the idea. Krieg's entire theme is about grinding attrition warfare. The Guard are not meant to be incompetent cannon fodder, but certainly their commanders are more tolerant of a certain degree of losses compared to other factions if it means the accomplishment of objectives.

We see an example of how the Guard deal with CSM in the Siege of Vraks. They die. But they die after putting up a fight or they are so numerous that they are actually making gains on other fronts while the CSM are busy slaughtering one company (as one Alpha Legion warband did on Vraks). That company was not meant as a sacrifice but if their deaths meant the enemy was kept busy...then oh well, fair trade.

As for the topic of Khornate CSM, the old 2nd edition rules gave them Chaos armor (+1 to armor save for an effective 2+). One might explain their combat prowess at least partly due to their willingness to take wounds if it means getting the kill. While all SM might be willing and able to take wounds that would incapacitate a normal human, Khorne followers might take that to the next level and survive due to their Khorne blessings.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 14:33:43


 
   
Made in gr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Iracundus wrote:
Nonetheless there is some truth to the idea. Krieg's entire theme is about grinding attrition warfare. The Guard are not meant to be incompetent cannon fodder, but certainly their commanders are more tolerant of a certain degree of losses compared to other factions if it means the accomplishment of objectives.

We see an example of how the Guard deal with CSM in the Siege of Vraks. They die. But they die after putting up a fight or they are so numerous that they are actually making gains on other fronts while the CSM are busy slaughtering one company (as one Alpha Legion warband did on Vraks). That company was not meant as a sacrifice but if their deaths meant the enemy was kept busy...then oh well, fair trade.

As for the topic of Khornate CSM, the old 2nd edition rules gave them Chaos armor (+1 to armor save for an effective 2+). One might explain their combat prowess at least partly due to their willingness to take wounds if it means getting the kill. While all SM might be willing and able to take wounds that would incapacitate a normal human, Khorne followers might take that to the next level and survive due to their Khorne blessings.


That seems more like a Nurgle thing, to be honest. Half a torso blown away by a well placed rocket missile? It was only rotten, maggot infested meat anyway.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Esmer wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Nonetheless there is some truth to the idea. Krieg's entire theme is about grinding attrition warfare. The Guard are not meant to be incompetent cannon fodder, but certainly their commanders are more tolerant of a certain degree of losses compared to other factions if it means the accomplishment of objectives.

We see an example of how the Guard deal with CSM in the Siege of Vraks. They die. But they die after putting up a fight or they are so numerous that they are actually making gains on other fronts while the CSM are busy slaughtering one company (as one Alpha Legion warband did on Vraks). That company was not meant as a sacrifice but if their deaths meant the enemy was kept busy...then oh well, fair trade.

As for the topic of Khornate CSM, the old 2nd edition rules gave them Chaos armor (+1 to armor save for an effective 2+). One might explain their combat prowess at least partly due to their willingness to take wounds if it means getting the kill. While all SM might be willing and able to take wounds that would incapacitate a normal human, Khorne followers might take that to the next level and survive due to their Khorne blessings.


That seems more like a Nurgle thing, to be honest. Half a torso blown away by a well placed rocket missile? It was only rotten, maggot infested meat anyway.


It's more like he attacks in a frenzy and is more likely to claim his opponent's head because he does not pay attention to defense and is willing to step into the path of that chainsword if it means getting close enough to behead his opponent. Not quite the same thematically as the more stoic plodding Nurgle advance.
   
 
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