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Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

I thought the meme came from the fact that bare tau heads resemble of fishes, I never considered vehicles for that matter.


 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
The racism comment are hilarious. I've used /tg/ since the day it was created and not once have I associated the T'au fish meme as being racist nor have I seen anyone do so. This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.

I know, cramming racism into everything is so ridiculous.


Yeah it's people constantly looking for things to be offended by.

And they get mad at you if all you want to do is paint toy soldiers and roll dice.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Sim-Life wrote:
The racism comment are hilarious. I've used /tg/ since the day it was created and not once have I associated the T'au fish meme as being racist nor have I seen anyone do so. This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.


The only tau related meme that's based in racism is the "Tau don't belong in 40k, gw only released the tau to pander to the asian market, keep your gundam crap out of here!!!"

Given that nobody that voices that opinion seems to care that Space Wolves pander to nordic people, Catachans pander to americans, Vostroyans pander to russians, sisters of battle pander to catholics, blood angels pander to twilight fans, orks pander to the cockney hooligan subspecies of britbonger, etc, etc, the only reasonable interpretation you can really pull from that particular meme is that they don't like the various historical and cultural signifiers that go with that culture of humans on earth. Basically every single humanoid group in 40k pulls SOME kind of cultural cache from some region in the world, it's A-OK to have factions that have space armor reminiscent of medieval knights or egyptian phaerohs but when you use a piece of wide rectangular shoulder armor and a wide hat with a long gun to make a suit of space armor reminiscent of a medieval asian peasant spearman suddenly it's "Pandering".

"Tau are fish" is just...their gaks named after fish and theyre blue.

It's not that fething complicated.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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I'm almost afraid to ask but who to Tyranids pander too - pandas?!

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 Overread wrote:
I'm almost afraid to ask but who to Tyranids pander too - pandas?!


I havent figured it out yet but once I do I will complain about how they are political. I'm working my way through the various peoples of the pacific islands and squinting, I'll let you know when I decide.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 12:03:22


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Aside from their armor and suits borrowing or being inspired by mecha and historical Asian armor, I thought one of the inspirations for the Tau appearance was the Neimoidians from the Star Wars prequels, who had that pseudo Asian accent.
   
Made in us
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Iracundus wrote:
Aside from their armor and suits borrowing or being inspired by mecha and historical Asian armor, I thought one of the inspirations for the Tau appearance was the Neimoidians from the Star Wars prequels, who had that pseudo Asian accent.


GW Miniatures Designer: "My lord....is that....legal?"

GW Copyright Lawyer: "I will make it legal."

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I think GW calls those thing inspirations. So they can make models looking as if taken live from Judge Dread or Dune, etc and claim the stuff as their own.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Iracundus wrote:
Aside from their armor and suits borrowing or being inspired by mecha and historical Asian armor, I thought one of the inspirations for the Tau appearance was the Neimoidians from the Star Wars prequels, who had that pseudo Asian accent.


That, on the other hand, *was* racist as feth, yellow peril bs. The Tau thing? Not so much.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Blackie wrote:
I thought the meme came from the fact that bare tau heads resemble of fishes, I never considered vehicles for that matter.


The Hammerhead looks a bit like the silhouette of a Hammerhead shark (if you squint a bit), so in-universe that is the first vehicle from the Tau the Imperium encountered and the names spread from there.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
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Surprisingly positive thread.. Wierd..

Here I was convinced everyone and their mother hates the Tau...

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.


Thats more or less how orcs originated, conceptually speaking, starting with Tolkiens writings where he essentially wrote them as degenerate elves who originated from the southern realms of MIddle Earth and may or may not have engaged in interbreeding with beasts and other critters. More specifically though, in written correspondence with acquaintances he described them as "degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." so, they're really more a racist trope directed at eastern peoples (which makes sense because Tolkiens "moral geography" had long portrayed the east as a place where evil dwells) rather than Africans.

From there, Orcs as a pop culture trope was further shaped by other authors, many of whom baked in even more problematic caricatures and more overt racist tropes. At this point, it doesn't really matter if you're generations removed from that and you just see Orcs as just generic evil badguys, they are still rooted in those stereotypes and anything short of a conscious effort to avoid them is simply perpetuating that. D&D addressed this by separating orcs from the concept of evil and attempting to rehabilitate their portrayal as having more nuance and depth, etc. GW addressed it simply by removing the mongol aesthetic references that used to be much more pervasive to their design in both 40k and fantasy and pushing their portrayal in different directions that generally avoid association with any sort of real world culture. Either approach is valid.

Karol wrote:
I didn't knew you could be racist against a non human. The more you learn, the wierder the world gets.


I can't tell if you're misrepresenting the argument intentionally or just legitimately don't understand the problem.

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 Argive wrote:
Surprisingly positive thread.. Wierd..

Here I was convinced everyone and their mother hates the Tau...


People need to get over that one by now.

Tau have existed for longer in 40k than they haven't existed. 1987-2001: no Tau. 2001 to present: Tau.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
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They're probably as much fish as they're communist...
   
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 Lord Damocles wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Just jumping on this one, can someone also explain where the whole "Blood Ravens are thieves" meme comes from as well?

In the Dawn of War games you unlock relics, these relics are often from other chapters. So you might find Guilliman's sword or Dorn's helmet or whatever.
Hence the Blood Ravens have been stealing other people's relics.

Note that reading the descriptions of the various weapons/wargear in Dawn of War II reveals that the vast majority are just named after other Chapters/Primarchs, but there is no indication that they originated from them.
There however is a surprising number of artifacts from things like Custodes that seem to end up in Blood Raven hands. There were also things like this. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Baalpistol.png

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Blood_Ravens the page has a bunch of the other artifacts that list them as well.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 19:07:34


 
   
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chaos0xomega wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.
GW addressed it simply by removing the mongol aesthetic references that used to be much more pervasive to their design in both 40k and fantasy and pushing their portrayal in different directions that generally avoid association with any sort of real world culture. .


SHHHHHHHHhhhHHhHhHHHhshhuuuush, don't point out that the cockney soccer hooligan orks with super over-exaggerated british accents and mannerisms, bright green instead of brown coloring and no hair as opposed to dreadlocks was a purposeful, politically motivated choice that people would decry today as 'getting woke' and a precursor to 'going broke.'

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Things that were done prior to the current decade are ALWAYS completely a-political, that's the rules.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.
GW addressed it simply by removing the mongol aesthetic references that used to be much more pervasive to their design in both 40k and fantasy and pushing their portrayal in different directions that generally avoid association with any sort of real world culture. .


SHHHHHHHHhhhHHhHhHHHhshhuuuush, don't point out that the cockney soccer hooligan orks with super over-exaggerated british accents and mannerisms, bright green instead of brown coloring and no hair as opposed to dreadlocks was a purposeful, politically motivated choice that people would decry today as 'getting woke' and a precursor to 'going broke.'

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Things that were done prior to the current decade are ALWAYS completely a-political, that's the rules.


...and given we're right at the start of a decade...

Dammit! You played me!
   
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

 the_scotsman wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.
GW addressed it simply by removing the mongol aesthetic references that used to be much more pervasive to their design in both 40k and fantasy and pushing their portrayal in different directions that generally avoid association with any sort of real world culture. .


SHHHHHHHHhhhHHhHhHHHhshhuuuush, don't point out that the cockney soccer hooligan orks with super over-exaggerated british accents and mannerisms, bright green instead of brown coloring and no hair as opposed to dreadlocks was a purposeful, politically motivated choice that people would decry today as 'getting woke' and a precursor to 'going broke.'

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Things that were done prior to the current decade are ALWAYS completely a-political, that's the rules.


Funnily enough I originally did point that out, but then decided against it and removed that paragraph before posting it. Mind you - GW has also moved away from that portrayal a bit as of the last few years as well, because turns out that was still kinda discriminatory, though in this case against (generally) impoverished white people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 20:03:23


This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




chaos0xomega wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.
GW addressed it simply by removing the mongol aesthetic references that used to be much more pervasive to their design in both 40k and fantasy and pushing their portrayal in different directions that generally avoid association with any sort of real world culture. .


SHHHHHHHHhhhHHhHhHHHhshhuuuush, don't point out that the cockney soccer hooligan orks with super over-exaggerated british accents and mannerisms, bright green instead of brown coloring and no hair as opposed to dreadlocks was a purposeful, politically motivated choice that people would decry today as 'getting woke' and a precursor to 'going broke.'

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Things that were done prior to the current decade are ALWAYS completely a-political, that's the rules.


Funnily enough I originally did point that out, but then decided against it and removed that paragraph before posting it. Mind you - GW has also moved away from that portrayal a bit as of the last few years as well, because turns out that was still kinda discriminatory, though in this case against (generally) impoverished white people.


Even so, the satire takes aim squarely on those making the (bad) choice to get embroiled in football firm violence (and to be clear "my" team has a rather poor rep locally on that front), rather than the class connotations of football fandom at large (and holy poop, have you seen the price of season tickets these days?)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 20:11:21


 
   
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your mind

Karol wrote:
I didn't knew you could be racist against a non human. The more you learn, the wierder the world gets.

Wise beyond your years…


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.


Thats more or less how orcs originated, conceptually speaking, starting with Tolkiens writings where he essentially wrote them as degenerate elves who originated from the southern realms of MIddle Earth and may or may not have engaged in interbreeding with beasts and other critters. More specifically though, in written correspondence with acquaintances he described them as "degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." so, they're really more a racist trope directed at eastern peoples (which makes sense because Tolkiens "moral geography" had long portrayed the east as a place where evil dwells) rather than Africans.
Spoiler:


From there, Orcs as a pop culture trope was further shaped by other authors, many of whom baked in even more problematic caricatures and more overt racist tropes. At this point, it doesn't really matter if you're generations removed from that and you just see Orcs as just generic evil badguys, they are still rooted in those stereotypes and anything short of a conscious effort to avoid them is simply perpetuating that. D&D addressed this by separating orcs from the concept of evil and attempting to rehabilitate their portrayal as having more nuance and depth, etc. GW addressed it simply by removing the mongol aesthetic references that used to be much more pervasive to their design in both 40k and fantasy and pushing their portrayal in different directions that generally avoid association with any sort of real world culture. Either approach is valid.


Karol wrote:
I didn't knew you could be racist against a non human. The more you learn, the wierder the world gets.


I can't tell if you're misrepresenting the argument intentionally or just legitimately don't understand the problem.


I think that you are mistaking an attempt to convey something in terms natural enough to his interlocutor to aid in making an image clear with actual conceptual constraints, I.e. you read too much of your own bias into that specific effort at communication in a limited context. One sure thing about Tolkien though was that he had no love for bankers, with enslavement to and war for empire at the behest of big finance being the ring to rule them all. He appealed to existing tropes to paint this big picture, not to enshrine any enculturated racism so far as I have been able to understand his intentions in composing the trilogy of the rings.

As for Karol, I think he was exactly on point with his observation.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 20:50:36


   
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chaos0xomega wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.

he described them as "degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." so, they're really more a racist trope directed at eastern peoples


Pls just no.
Thats how he described them physically. Its like saying "that guy looks like ugly Chris Hemsworth". He wasn't saying "ugly Mongols are smelly and look silly", he was just drawing a comparison. If he'd said "they look like your mum after a night out" I doubt you'd be as quick to say he was being racist.

Orcs are just orcs. Get over yourself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 22:13:44



 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




chaos0xomega wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.


Thats more or less how orcs originated, conceptually speaking, starting with Tolkiens writings where he essentially wrote them as degenerate elves who originated from the southern realms of MIddle Earth and may or may not have engaged in interbreeding with beasts and other critters. More specifically though, in written correspondence with acquaintances he described them as "degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." so, they're really more a racist trope directed at eastern peoples (which makes sense because Tolkiens "moral geography" had long portrayed the east as a place where evil dwells) rather than Africans.


.


I am not a Tatar, so not really much to be offended about. Plus from what I understand Tolkien Orks were Morgoth tortured elf tribes. Which considering the political situation at the time of writing of the book, this makes them more kin to the "huns" who once kin, were turned by evil in to monsters.
Historically in the european languages they oruks or horuks are the hungarians, aka the men eating ogers.
So I gues them, the tatars and maybe bulgarians could feel offended.

I can't tell if you're misrepresenting the argument intentionally or just legitimately don't understand the problem

I see no argument to be had. Tau , orks etc are something that doesn't exist in real life. You can't be racists to an imaginary folk tale depiction. But even if they somehow were real, then they are not human. Racism, just like things like murder, human rights etc are reserved for humans. Tau are not humans, so being racist to them, is like saying you could be racist to dogs or whales. And you can't. Now you can hate them, but being racist is impossible.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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on the forum. Obviously

The correct term is "speciesism", I believe.

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The irony around the Tau vehicle names, is that they're imperial designations, not the tau names.

Tau don't have hammerheads and devilfish.


   
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Imperial primer strikes again.

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





leerm02 wrote:
mildly Asian/anime inspired roots

"Midly"?

They literally wear katanas and Ashigaru armour, meditate, have Asian themed hats and haircuts, rigid castes are arguably very Asian development (Indian ones being most famous but Japan has them too), they reject individuality in favour of collectivism, Ethereals use Far Eastern martial arts and monk clothing, mechs and tanks are really inspired by anime designs (down to guns and antennae), round emblems evoke many Asian flags - you'd literally struggle to make more East Asian civilization in 40K even if you tried...

Hell, what flag does Tau art remind you of?

Spoiler:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I've used /tg/ since the day it was created and not once have I associated the T'au fish meme as being racist nor have I seen anyone do so.

You either paid very little attention then or are deaf to really obvious symbols. Especially after 2016.

Though to be fair TG goes both ways, there are a lot of wannabe otakus there racist other way, thinking everything Japanese = better...

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I had a discussion with someone the other day that genuinely believed if Orks painted themselves purple they turned invisible.
It's bizarre. I thought that was a relatively recent meme and was so obviously an absurd meme. But nope, that was proper canon to this guy.

Funnily enough some GW writer repeated that recently, by ignorance or on purpose, dunno, but it's literal canon now
   
Made in au
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The anime meme for tau is a very narrow view of anime, which makes me think it's been created by people mostly ignorant of anime.

Of all the 40k factions it's the craftworld eldar and harlequins that are the most anime.

They're long and thin, train so hard they turn into kung fu demigods and if they concentrate on something for long enough they master it and develop magic powers.

Their mecha are also very anime, just not the particular mech brand everyone focuses on when talking about the tau.
   
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 jeff white wrote:


I think that you are mistaking an attempt to convey something in terms natural enough to his interlocutor to aid in making an image clear with actual conceptual constraints, I.e. you read too much of your own bias into that specific effort at communication in a limited context. One sure thing about Tolkien though was that he had no love for bankers, with enslavement to and war for empire at the behest of big finance being the ring to rule them all. He appealed to existing tropes to paint this big picture, not to enshrine any enculturated racism so far as I have been able to understand his intentions in composing the trilogy of the rings.

As for Karol, I think he was exactly on point with his observation.


Yeah, no. He literally wrote of them as being "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes". Thats literally the first part of the sentence that I quoted previously:


"The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."

Given "slant eye" is a longstanding derogatory english term for people of asian descent, let alone the fact that everything written there is a longstanding racist caricature of asian peoples that was pervasive in English culture and society during Tolkiens time, its hard to say that I'm "reading too much into my own bias". This is textbook yellow peril nonsense and also blends with the "scientific racism" that Tolkien would no doubt have been educated in and familiar with (you will note he uses the term "Mongol" specifically - theres a reason for that, and it isn't because he had Genghis Khan on his mind when he wrote the letter). All of these things that were pervasive in English culture and society of the time and which Tolkien would have been well-versed in. Everything in Tolkiens works is coded to something in the real world, whether it be references to Christianity, linguistic derivations, or what-have-you, despite his protestations that his work was non-allegorical.

This is evidenced in his approach to race and pedigree in the world he created, elves are civilized, sophisticated, noble, and pure - they're also universally described as fair-skinned. Likewise, the "heroic" and "good" men are always described as fair, and exist in the northern and western areas of middle earth, with the most pure and good men (the House of Beor and House of Hador/Marach) being said to resemble the elves themselves. This is paralleled by the concept of Caucasoids (i.e. Europeans) who were considered to be the purest of the races of men in the real world. The third of the original houses of men (The House of Haleth) was described in lesser terms than the other two (being smaller, less noble, etc.) and gave rise to the various tribes of "wild" men such as the Dunlendings, again universally described as fair and treated in higher regards than the Haradrim and Easterlings, etc. and intended to be a parallel for things like the Scots, Irish, and Welsh (i.e. Celts in general) which in Tolkiens time (and in some cases to this day) are regarded as being lesser than the Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Danish English.

The evil men are described as varying shades of tan, brown, swarthy, etc. and come from the south and east. The easterlings are literally referred to as "the swarthy men", whereas the haradrim are literally referred to as "the black men". These races of men are almost invariably described as being the result of splits in lineage from the original race of men and the Houses of Marach/Hador. In no uncertain terms, Tolkien describes the various races of evil men as being corrupt both in morality and in lineage, whereas races of men like the Gondorians can have their hereditary lineages traced back clearly to Numenoreans, most of the races of dark/evil men have no clear lineage and its only guessed at how they may have come to be, usually as a result of things like kin-strife, betrayal, civil war, mixing between tribes, etc.

The implication is pretty clear that Tolkien paralleled moral decay with genetic drift - the farther removed from the "High Men" and the Numenoreans and Men of pure and noble lineage a race of Men was, the more evil they were. This is also evidenced in other terminology, the Numenoreans (descended from the House of Beor and Marach) are the "High Men", whereas the other fair-skinned races of men in Middle Earth, descended from Marach/Hador and Haleth, are described as "Middle Men". The "dark" races (i.e. Easterlings, Haradrim, Variags, etc.) are excluded from categorization as Middle Men and referred to as the Men of Darkness or Men of Shadow (whereas the fair-skinned Gondorians are referred to as "Men of Light"). The only exception to this pattern are the Black Numenoreans who can trace their lineage directly to the High Men, but who betrayed their kindred and become corrupted and evil as a result of their allegiance to Sauron, etc.

Again this is paralleled by the concept of "Negroids" and "Mongoloids" - if Caucusoids are the original prototype, the other two are degenerates and corruptions of that original lineage, varyingly described as being the result of interbreeding amongst the tribes of Caucusoids, interbreeding with animals/beasts, moral and spiritual decay, regression towards a more primitive state, etc. Now we get into Orcs - they share much in common with the description of the Easterlings and Haradrim in terms of them not having a directly clear lineage back to a pure "prototype" and being morally and physically degenerate, etc. with the added note that they are the result of elves being corrupted and enslaved, interbred with beasts and races of men to produce a new species of warlike primitives that would do the bidding of their masters. This is basically, again, the same concept that underlies Negroids and Mongoloids being the result of a decay of Caucusoids.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Pls just no.
Thats how he described them physically. Its like saying "that guy looks like ugly Chris Hemsworth". He wasn't saying "ugly Mongols are smelly and look silly", he was just drawing a comparison. If he'd said "they look like your mum after a night out" I doubt you'd be as quick to say he was being racist.

Orcs are just orcs. Get over yourself.


Pls just no. Your argument holds no water and has zero logical basis. If your argument is "that isn't racist, he was just drawing a comparison by using a racist caricature rooted in a racist pseudo-scientific theory", then you have no argument. Drawing a comparison to a stereotypical caricature of asians is inherently racist. He wasn't describing them in the context of an individual, he was describing them in the context of an entire category - or race, if you will - of people. Taken in conjunction with his association with the east as evil, his attitudes towards people from the east in his own works, and the pervasiveness of yellow peril beliefs in the culture and society he grew up and existed within, theres enough dots to connect to establish a clear pattern of belief and perspective.

This doesn't even necessarily make Tolkien a racist in and of himself, there has to be some allowance made for people being a product of their time - unconscious bias and learned behavior and all that (and theres a lot of writings to suggest that he was a bit more progressive and forward-thinking than the average Briton of his time on matters of race). You have to keep in mind that he was writing a sort of metamyth/monomyth which was rooted in northern european mythology and folklore - his source material was itself largely built on and around racist portrayals of "the other" which existed in the unexplored regions of the map to the south and east. Theres no doubt that would have colored his own writing in the process.

Karol wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
This is the kind of thing Extra Credits got in trouble for a while ago for assuming that everyone thinks evil orcs are analogous to black people.


Thats more or less how orcs originated, conceptually speaking, starting with Tolkiens writings where he essentially wrote them as degenerate elves who originated from the southern realms of MIddle Earth and may or may not have engaged in interbreeding with beasts and other critters. More specifically though, in written correspondence with acquaintances he described them as "degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." so, they're really more a racist trope directed at eastern peoples (which makes sense because Tolkiens "moral geography" had long portrayed the east as a place where evil dwells) rather than Africans.


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I am not a Tatar, so not really much to be offended about. Plus from what I understand Tolkien Orks were Morgoth tortured elf tribes. Which considering the political situation at the time of writing of the book, this makes them more kin to the "huns" who once kin, were turned by evil in to monsters.
Historically in the european languages they oruks or horuks are the hungarians, aka the men eating ogers.
So I gues them, the tatars and maybe bulgarians could feel offended.

I can't tell if you're misrepresenting the argument intentionally or just legitimately don't understand the problem

I see no argument to be had. Tau , orks etc are something that doesn't exist in real life. You can't be racists to an imaginary folk tale depiction. But even if they somehow were real, then they are not human. Racism, just like things like murder, human rights etc are reserved for humans. Tau are not humans, so being racist to them, is like saying you could be racist to dogs or whales. And you can't. Now you can hate them, but being racist is impossible.


Still can't tell if you're clueless or deliberately mischaracterizing the problem.

The first part of your post suggests you do understand the problem but are deliberately mischaracterizing it, as you seem to understand that Orcs are a reference to a real world people (though for whatever reason you seem to think that he was referring to as steppe peoples rather than asiatic peoples, despite his use of the term "Mongol" which would have been understood in his time as a reference to the "Mongoloid race" i.e. Asians.

The second part of your post though (assuming you're arguing in good faith - which I doubt) suggests you are clueless or unable to fully connect the dots, as you seem fixated on the idea that people are upset because someone is somehow being racist against the orcs (or Tau, etc.) specifically, rather than understanding that these things are racial caricatures and stereotypes of real world people and that those portrayals are racist against the real world peoples and cultures that underly said stereotypes. I.E. - nobody is accusing someone of being racist against an orc, they are accusing people of being racist against a real world race or ethnicity through the use of an orc as a manifestation of real world stereotype and caricature.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 01:54:55


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 Irbis wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I had a discussion with someone the other day that genuinely believed if Orks painted themselves purple they turned invisible.
It's bizarre. I thought that was a relatively recent meme and was so obviously an absurd meme. But nope, that was proper canon to this guy.

Funnily enough some GW writer repeated that recently, by ignorance or on purpose, dunno, but it's literal canon now

Really? I'm intrigued, sauce?
   
 
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