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You are indeed correct that talons are no Ap1, I forgot about that part.
But you are mistaken about double talon not being a thing. you start with talon and sword, and can switch out sword for another talon.
So running the numbers again.
Still about a 40% difference.
Not quite as high as it would have been with AP2, but still notable.
(edit: why did I bother running any numbers? 40% increase in attacks of same S, same AP and basically same D is obviously 40% increase in output)
As for the T and W only mattering if you try to get into CC, I'll have to disagree on that point with you.
People shoot my psykers sooner or later. not being as easy to gun down once the front line starts falling is by itself a virtue.
And heck, even if I don't try to get into cc, the enemy might.
And yes, disk and wings is the same speed, but I am not totally sold on either one right now.
They are good upgrades, but a tad pricy in my eyes, and it usually one of the first things I cut down when its time to trim the list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 05:09:19
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
The Exalted Sorc actually has potential to give Ahriman a run for his money I think. For 150 points and your warlord trait you get an Exalted Sorc on disc with 3 casts that rolls 3d6 and picks two, which for psychic tests is actually arguably better than rerolling most of the time. 30 points less than Ahriman, for which you lose two denies, 1 wound, and go from 3 damage to d3 on your weapon. ES knows one less power, but it also knows its cult power, so that kinda comes out in the wash.
Also way more flexible in terms of ability to take other relics, warlord traits, even go down to 2 casts and go for a second relic, etc. It can take that sweet disc relic that lets you consolidate 6" in any direction, advance and charge, and even fall back and still cast powers if you somehow do manage to get stuck in combat.
I think they actually managed to get this one right, there are reasons why you'd want each over the other, and why you'd want one of each.
edit: Oh blah nevermind, that warlord trait only lets you roll 3d6 for psychic actions, not tests. Go go reading comprehension. That makes the ES substantially less attractive as competition to Ahriman for a reliable psychic power battery. So yeah, I guess you're still going to want Ahriman in 100% of lists; the ES is still good, but can't really replace what he does.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 05:28:23
Daedalus81 wrote: Right - potentially no Ahriman or one less sorcerer.
Datasheet does not have option for a pair of talons. +1A is all he'll get now. Talons are AP1 as well so quite close to the staff. The toughness and wounds only matter if you really want to get into combat. DP will still be good for that, but he doesn't work magic against some of the units out that that he'll face. Disc and Wings are same speed.
You can replace the sword with a Talon for 2x Talons, since comes with one base.
That being said, if you are using a DP for just an aura and slightly better stats, it's a huge waste. You're way better off with an exalted that can be designed just to be buff bot. A good example is a Dilentee Exalted with the Orrey + helm, to sit back with two Volkite contemptors. You now have some serious firepower as well as still being able to cast his spells. Or I can make a mini-Ahriman with Rehati to go around. Aetherstride + the Relic Disc + A Prosperine khopesh allows you to do some cool tricks. Go up and psychic, shoot charge and then consolidate away before they can swing back, then repeat it all over again.
The only reason I would consider taking a DP over an exalted is to kit it out for serous melee. If you take the Sword, Connving Plate, -1 Damage WLT, Wings, and Warp Swell + heal, he is really good in combat, but I'm not yet sure if that is really worth it at this point.
Yea this is my rough cut battalion. 15 cabal points and still 200 points left to spend.
I am not entirely sure I want the IM. Maybe strip cover on Vanguard and -2 Advance/Charge for DE. He could be a Rubric babysitting with +1S and then cast +6". Or risk it and go for S6 flamers.
Am I reading this wrong, or is the conniving plate kinda busted RAW, in that it only halves the attacks for a model in engagement range, not for a model w/in .5" of a model w/in .5"? You end up with the weird and perverse results re: your opponent wanting to minimize the amount of models that are actually in engagement range, vs not in engagement range but close to a model in engagement range. Seems weird that that would be intentional...
Still a great relic, especially against characters. But it seems bizarre that by hanging back models can get their full attacks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 05:45:44
Oh hell you can give the prince the armor? I misread that!
That's sheer nasty on him XD
Anyway, at some level I'm happy to see people disagree with me and each coming with his own ideas to how to run exalted.
It means not only that I might be underestimating the exalted and they might be A worthy, but also that the codex really is jam packed of meaningful options, or at least meaningful enough there is no one path that obviously superior on a glance.
The time for listbuilding will have to wait, because I'm still wrecking my time on finishing the summery, and by god there is a lot to go over
And I work so many hours the next few days XD (today included)
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
There's a ton of herohammer depth to the book, it's definitely the best part. Tons and tons of interesting relics and the ability to take two on someone just makes it that much more interesting what you can do.
I really like the way they've tweaked the cults too, they feel really balanced now, with most of them arguably good enough to see play. Knowledge looks like the only out-and-out dud to me, and I guess even that might have play for the reroll 1s to wound power, especially since it isn't <CORE> restricted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 05:56:15
yukishiro1 wrote: Am I reading this wrong, or is the conniving plate kinda busted RAW, in that it only halves the attacks for a model in engagement range, not for a model w/in .5" of a model w/in .5"? You end up with the weird and perverse results re: your opponent wanting to minimize the amount of models that are actually in engagement range, vs not in engagement range but close to a model in engagement range. Seems weird that that would be intentional...
Still a great relic, especially against characters. But it seems bizarre that by hanging back models can get their full attacks.
I think you're reading it wrong. The rule is model by model. So any model allocating to the relic bearer can only do up to half their attacks to him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: Knowledge looks like the only out-and-out dud to me.
Yea that spell is less appealing with the other strength bonuses out there now. Maybe if you really just want to hurt one thing real bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 05:56:03
yukishiro1 wrote: Am I reading this wrong, or is the conniving plate kinda busted RAW, in that it only halves the attacks for a model in engagement range, not for a model w/in .5" of a model w/in .5"? You end up with the weird and perverse results re: your opponent wanting to minimize the amount of models that are actually in engagement range, vs not in engagement range but close to a model in engagement range. Seems weird that that would be intentional...
Still a great relic, especially against characters. But it seems bizarre that by hanging back models can get their full attacks.
I think you're reading it wrong. The rule is model by model. So any model allocating to the relic bearer can only do up to half their attacks to him.
Yes, but it only applies to models that are w/in Engagement Range of the model with the relic. A model w/in .5" of another model from its own unit that's w/in .5" of the target is not necessarily w/in Engagement range of the target, so it looks to me like that model can allocate all its attacks to the bearer, as long as it isn't w/in Engagement Range itself. It seems like it should just say "each time a model selects the bearer as a target for its close combat attacks, it can only allocate up to half of its attacks against the bearer" or something like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 06:02:09
Guided by the whispers looks like the best warlord trait in the book to me, there are so many weird tricks you can get up to with it now that 9th requires you to declare charges against multiple units and the charge fails if you don't make it into all of them, or if you can't charge without getting into engagement range of a unit you didn't declare. You can position your warlord so that your opponent really has to declare against your warlord plus another unit to charge either, then pop him back 6" to a place where the unit can't possibly succeed the charge against both.
Or even better, if your opponent wants to charge you with two units, you let the first one charge, then when the second one declares, you activate your 6" move, and use their own unit as a screen to make the second charge fail, while at the same time putting your warlord outside of pile in-range. It's going to be a super rare situation where your opponent is going to be able to charge your warlord with more than one unit without ruining it for both. I think it may get a FAQ to say you can only do it if you're not already engaged, it seems crazy powerful to be able to scoot out of a combat you're already in just because someone else charged you. Although maybe you can't do that, because it says you can make a 6" Normal Move, and if you're engagement range you can't make a Normal Move? Depends whether you read the "it can make a Normal Move" as overriding the general prohibition, I guess.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 06:21:50
Think we have to be careful of over committing to characters. They are good but they need normal units for look out sir as well. Otherwise, once the normal units start to die, it leaves all your characters open to being sniped or charged.
It sounds great to have so many castors, but if we spend 1,000 points on characters, we will only have 1000 points left to spend on other stuff like troops and such.
Has anyone looked at Vindicators? At below 140 points for a T8 Vindicator with a 5++ save with a combi melta and havoc launcher? That sounds rather good. Its 24 inch range, but the Vindicator moves 10 inches anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 09:30:55
Ok, so, I have a 500 point force, consisting of the start collecting box, and I'm getting the tson half of hexfire. Which will put me at about 900-1000 points.
So, what do people suggest I do to build this bar up towards 2k? What should be my next investment?
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
xerxeskingofking wrote: Ok, so, I have a 500 point force, consisting of the start collecting box, and I'm getting the tson half of hexfire. Which will put me at about 900-1000 points.
So, what do people suggest I do to build this bar up towards 2k? What should be my next investment?
You are going to want probably 2 more hq castors. Sorcerer (I think arhiman allows it slot free) plus DP or exalted. Then probably 5 more rubrics to make battalion if needed depending on you build of the guys you got. (Think about 10 with flamers warp timing up the field). Then definitely 5 more SoT. They are probably our best unit. After that really preference. There is a case for rhinos hellbrute vindicater. All of which should still be cheap on ebay for now. The daemon engines look much improved as well. Just my thoughts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 10:49:47
Yeah, its possible to go too heavy on characters. Tsons characters aren't really that great in combat. Not compared to true combat characters like smash chaplains or smash captains.
Over commit on characters, and once your troops that are protecting you are gone, you are in trouble. Rubrics and Occult terminators are great, and fairly tanky, but if you have too few of them, or whatever else you use to provide look out sir for your characters, its going to be a problem.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Has anyone looked at Vindicators? At below 140 points for a T8 Vindicator with a 5++ save with a combi melta and havoc launcher? That sounds rather good. Its 24 inch range, but the Vindicator moves 10 inches anyway.
I used them before with Weaver and they absolutely did lots and took beatings. Now I don't need to babysit them. And they're an awesome looking model.
Had an idea for a good way to use a Loyal Thrall Sorcerer: if you run Cult of Duplicity you can warp onto empty objectives and immediately score Mutate Landscape. Duplicity should be fun for scoring in general, you can use it for punishing unprotected Banners too.
Arachnofiend wrote: Had an idea for a good way to use a Loyal Thrall Sorcerer: if you run Cult of Duplicity you can warp onto empty objectives and immediately score Mutate Landscape. Duplicity should be fun for scoring in general, you can use it for punishing unprotected Banners too.
Yup, I do think we have to be careful about the psychic secondaries though. I saw some in play against grey knights matchups on battle reports on youtube and they are not a surefire thing. They can get denied or you just happen to roll badly and fail to have the action go off. I mean, I saw one guy roll a 3 and fail to perform the psychic action, and then next turn he rolled like a 5 , so it went off but was easily denied.
About Duplicity. I was pretty excited about it too. But after looking through the changes and what Tsons have. Most of our units are not meant to get in close combat, and enemy objectives often have troops on them which need to be fought. The best unit to do this would probably be our Occult terminators, which are not bad at fighting too. But the issue is, we only have one such teleport spell. So, warping one unit of our terminators into enemy territory is likely to result in it being focused on and getting destroyed. Even our rubrics are not cheap enough I wouldn't want to sacrifice them to do this. And they may not be fighty enough to take on the opponents on enemy objectives either.
Actually, to be honest, if we like this concept, Grey knights do this much better. I saw some battle reports now. Grey knights strategy now often involves teleporting at least two or maybe even more units into charge range. Grey knights are tanky too, and their close combat is much better. They Want to charge and get into close combat. Also, teleporting in close puts the enemy within range of their smites almost immediately.
If we want to do this, it would be on enemy objectives we are literally already cleared of units so we can teleport directly onto it without a fight. And those wouldn't happen all the time.
Fighting is not really our forte. Our strength is to get into smite range, and with our mid range shooting plus psychic, absolutely blow away our opponent within that range. This also brings me to my next point. We absolutely need our units and especially our psykers to survive till turn 5 if we want to get the best out of them. Our army effectiveness plummets as our psykers die, and as our units that give look out sir get thinned down, they get much more easily sniped off as well. Now, if we can have a really hard to kill bloc in the middle where we cluster all of our psykers, that might work, abit like how DG likes to do it with a big block of blightlords. But our terminators are not as tanky as blightlords by default, not unless we want to spend psychic and CP each round to make them as tanky. Its a possible strategy, but its going to be expensive on a big block of 10 Occult terminators (3cp per round for the -1 damage strategem).
This also brings me to my next point. How to protect our psykers. The best way is to have enough units that stay alive till the end so that they cannot be targeted and they can then keep on blasting smites and spells until turn 5. Outside of grey knights with their aegis, or true horde armies with well over 100 models, I am not sure any other army out there can withstand 5 turns of a Tsons army with all of its psykers inflicting mortal wounds on them. But our psykers have to survive to turn 5, with the freedom to do lots of smites and equivalents to achieve this. So, they need their protection.
Actually, I am thinking of spending less on characters and going heavy on rubrics and Occults. Each rubric or Occult squad has a psyker with a +1 to cast anyway, and Honestly, after the first 3 or 4 smites, smite becomes hard to get off, even with the +1. So, we then need to rely on the other damage psychic spells. A unit of 5 rubrics
is only a bit more expensive than a sorceror, but it has 10 wounds plus its a lot harder to kill than a sorceror or exalted sorceror. Plus it can also shoot, fight better, and its obsec. The one cast less is not going to matter if I stuff enough units of rubrics anyway. Occult terminators provide better protection though more expensive, and more improtantly, are our more reliable combat troops if we need to charge a unit on an objective or counter charge something that is muscling on our objective.
I rather have enough units of rubrics and terminators which can also smite, to ensure that my psykers get to keep on blasting until turn 5, as opposed to spending 800 points on characters, only to see them get killed on turn 3 or 4 because there are no units left to give them look out sir, or they are spending their time on objectives related stuff.
This brings me to my final point. Its not easy to construct a Tsons list. We want to do everything. But everything does cost points. If we have too many throwaway units for stuff like engage or actions, that's less points for our main force. Too many points into characters, and we don't have enough points in the units to protect them. Also, many of our units are only movement 6, because our mainstay are our rubrics and termis. Ah welll, its a fun challenge, and our psychic power is just so tasty now!
BTW, I would calculate how many smites and damage psychic I intend to cast every round with my Tsons army as a default setting, and then work from there. A Tsons army will win by obliterating its opponent with psychic plus shooting. Its not going to win by casting only buff spells instead of smites.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/09 03:30:59
How viable is a melee-heavy TSons list? I don't have the 'Dex, and may not get it (if it can't do what I want it to, not worth the $50) but what if you went heavy on Scarab Occult Terminators, maybe some Tzaangors for chaffy melee, some Maulerfiends... Obviously you'd have a decent shooting and psychic punch, but can you do work in CC?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Goal is to do duplity things. I think in almost all cases Warped Landscape should see you scoring 12 points, unless they have psykers. At which point you want to take wrath anyway. Sisters may be the only exception there, but you can use the cabal points to make it uncounterable as well, though I'd likely just take a diffrent secondary.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/09 03:35:49
How viable is a melee-heavy TSons list? I don't have the 'Dex, and may not get it (if it can't do what I want it to, not worth the $50) but what if you went heavy on Scarab Occult Terminators, maybe some Tzaangors for chaffy melee, some Maulerfiends... Obviously you'd have a decent shooting and psychic punch, but can you do work in CC?
Well.. honestly, if you want that. Grey knights do that better. Seriously. All of the grey knights units fight really well.
The only Tsons units that are decent in combat are as follows:
Occult terminators with their 2 damage weapons, Maulerfiends, Defilers, and Magnus (which is a big risk of a model of course) and possibly chaos spawn.
BTW, weaver of fates can only be cast once each turn. Army wide, most of our stuff are 5++ but each turn, we can only make ONE unit a 4++ if we get off weaver of fates. We need to think carefully about which unit that is going to be...
Tsangors are average now actually. They only have 2 attacks each. And they can't fight twice anymore, they aren't core. And their WS dropped from 3+ to 4+. Honestly, if we are relying on them as our mainstay combat... its not going to go well. Tons of other factions units are going to outfight them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/09 03:37:50
How viable is a melee-heavy TSons list? I don't have the 'Dex, and may not get it (if it can't do what I want it to, not worth the $50) but what if you went heavy on Scarab Occult Terminators, maybe some Tzaangors for chaffy melee, some Maulerfiends... Obviously you'd have a decent shooting and psychic punch, but can you do work in CC?
Well.. honestly, if you want that. Grey knights do that better. Seriously. All of the grey knights units fight really well.
The only Tsons units that are decent in combat are as follows:
Occult terminators with their 2 damage weapons, Maulerfiends, Defilers, and Magnus (which is a big risk of a model of course).
Tsangors are average now actually. They only have 2 attacks each. And they can't fight twice anymore, they aren't core. And their WS dropped from 3+ to 4+. Honestly, if we are relying on them as our mainstay combat... its not going to go well. Tons of other factions units are going to outfight them.
But Grey Knights have Imperial cooties!
Plus TSons have a more modern range than GK.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I know, I am forever a chaos player. However, why try and fit a round peg into a square hole. Tsons are not designed to be fighty. Trying to do that would result in a much less effective list.
Actually, daemon engines are probably our best bet if we want a fighty list. But movement would be an issue. Its going to be tough trying to move 3 hellbrutes and 3 defilers/mauler fiends across the board.
I am thinking that our best bet is still a leaf blower type list. One that focus on blowing our opponent off the board with our shooting and psychic and then we pick up the VPs when there isn't much enemy forces left on turn 4 and 5.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/09 03:42:48
Eldenfirefly wrote: I know, I am forever a chaos player. However, why try and fit a round peg into a square hole. Tsons are not designed to be fighty. Trying to do that would result in a much less effective list.
Actually, daemon engines are probably our best bet if we want a fighty list. But movement would be an issue. Its going to be tough trying to move 3 hellbrutes and 3 defilers/mauler fiends across the board.
I'm not a tournament player, nor are most of the people I play with at my local GW. And the few tournament players who do show up there are pretty chill and won't bring a stompy list to combat a mediocre one.
So while I do want to build an effective army, I don't need it to be bleeding-edge.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
On the note of the default blasting capability of Tsons. (And if you are not looking at this, you are missing out on playing to the best strengths of a Tsons army).
Smites start at WC 5 and go up for each smite. We get a +1 to cast. So, we should be able to reasonably get 3 to 4 smites off before it becomes extremely hard to cast even with our +1. Lets assume 4 smites each round on average.
Thats 4d3 mortal wounds right there.
Disciple of change has Tzeetch firestorm, and doombolt which gives a flat 3 MW. Lets assume Tzeentch firestorm also gives on average 3 MW. That's another 6 MW there.
In Disciple of Vengence, there is Infernal gaze, and gift of chaos. Infernal gaze is d3, and gift of chaos is very hard to get off cos its so short range. Desecration of Worlds is too situational. Its more of a psychic to basically make your opponent unit "not move" because if it is willing to take multiple MW just to move, its probably desperate already.
So between firestorm, doombolt and infernal gaze, we have 6+d3 MW, And another 4 smites giving us 4d3. So, thats 6 + 5d3 MW we can reasonably get off once we have enough units within smite range. Note that these likely only start going off on turn 2 onwards because a good opponent worth its salt is likely to have everything out of smite range on turn 1.
Oh, cabalistic rituals include adding on another d3 MW to a MW spell for just 4 CP. Definitely auto incude since we are doing so much blasting.
So, we need to get 7 casts off each turn pplus 4 Cabal points to do 6+6d3 (average 18 MW) each turn from turn 2 onwards. Assuming we can keep this up with no lack of targets, that would work out to an average of 72 MW done to our opponent army by turn 5.
Add in our shooting, and it should wreck most armies as long we can keep up our MW psyhic.
This doesn't factor in if you took a cult that has a damage MW psychic as its power. This also assumes they didn't get denied or failed to cast of course. Or if you took Magnus, which adds another source of scary MW output all by himself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rhinos stuffed with 10 Tazangors or cultists are interesting for approaching an objective. Our Rhinos are the hard to kill compared to other Rhinos. And Tzangors are ok at fighting if the target has been softened up with smites, plus they are cheap enough that even if you lose that unit, its not going to bite that much. They are reasonably tanky too with their 5++.
Plus a Rhino is pretty good at shooting too since it can equip double combi inferno bolters.
I might consider an advancing wall of rubics, terminators with characters behind them. While one or two Rhinos with tzangors race ahead to contest objectives with obsec.
Hellbrutes with lascannons and Defilers are a good consideration for the army I have in mind too. because they can shoot, plus they have the melee capability to wreck stuff that dares to come too close. I won't go overboard with them. But maybe 2 defilers (one in each of my corners), and 2 hellbrutes is something to consider. It all depends on whether I can even fit all that into a Tsons list. Bare in mind we want that minimum 7 to 8 casts each turn on MW spells as well. So we need a certain amount of rubrics, terminators and characters to pull that off.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't have the codex yet either so not sure if this can all be fit into 2000 points.
But something like this:
Arihman on Disc.
Exalted Sorceror or infernal master
4 squads of 5 rubrics (with soureaper cannons?).
1 squad of 10 Tzaangors in a Rhino. (maybe cultists if lack of points)
2 Hellbtues with lascannons and fist.
3 squads of 5 Occult terminators with hellfire racks and soul reaper cannons.
2 Defilers with twin lascannons and defiler scourge.
Thats 12 psychic casts each turn, so getting off the damage MW spells should be easy. And it has the vehicles to help out in close combat, and one Rhino with tzaangors to charge forward and contest an objective. The rest of the army will just move forward 6 inches a turn and blast the opponent off the board with smites, spells and shooting. The good thing about having the defilers and hellbrutes is that despite having an army mostly focused on shooting and psychic, 7 units are pretty good at fighting as well. (the 2 hellbrutes, 2 defilers and 3 squads of Terminators).
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2021/08/09 05:04:34
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts 
Watch Company Rho 1650pts
