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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Terminators in general look kind of over-priced to me. Paladins lost a lot of the specific stuff that made them really tough in the previous codex, and gained the ability to swap out psychic powers with a stratagem instead. Honestly it looks like the big winners in the 9th edition codex are DreadKnights, Power Armor marines, and some of the characters.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




yukishiro1 wrote:
The one big weakness from a melee perspective is no fights last; strikes will get carved to pieces by a lot of stuff if they get hit first. There is a fights first, but it's both a relic *and* a psychic action, with only 3" range to boot too. It sucks how many layered limitations they've piled on here - 1CP for a relic, giving up your psychic phase, being within 3" in the psychic phase rather than say the command phase, etc.



This is exactly why I say we aren't a melee army. We have melee and in certain matchups we can lean on it, but we have to build other phase tools into the list. If we hit an army that can actually control the tempo of the fight phase, it's rip.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's definitely not a monophase army, and you couldn't really build it that way even if you wanted to because all squads come with significant shooting output and psychic abilities. But I don't think fight priority is that big a concern. Fights first isn't that big of a deal unless it's on literally the whole army because you still get the first activation when you're charging. Fights last is a bigger problem, but a lot of those effects are either very close range or keyed off psychic powers that GK have a very good chance at denying. So it's really only stuff like a whirlwind that's super scary. But that is another reason to consider taking a rhino, so you have some place to hide a few squads where you can be sure they won't get debuffed or whittled down before you send them in to do their trade.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws






Flipping through the codex and IMO Termies and Paladins need like a 5 point reduction. That or Paladins need to be 4 wounds like I was hoping they'd be (pipe dream, I know, I know).

GKSS and Purifiers just bring so much to the table and are so powerful in psychic, shooting, and melee when properly supported that I just can't justify paying almost double per model for the extra durability of termies. GK are already a low-model army as it is, sacrificing even more models from a 2+ save in the era of AP modifiers just isn't worth it.

GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Purifiers, like Paladins, don't get brotherhoods, which is a pretty significant limitation. Strikes, interceptors and purgation squads are my picks right now. Being able to put interceptors in rhinos is really interesting in terms of giving you melee threat range on the board that the rest of the army doesn't have.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Purifiers get a really good psychic damage power and a -1 damage strat, so they have their own uses. I kinda like two of them in a Rhino jumping out for flat 6 mortal wounds on top of their shooting. That also leaves the Rhino's empty to dump a squad of shoot-then-move Interceptors into.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The power's 1MW more than smite on average, at half the range; not sure it's a great reason to take a squad over strikes who have a lot more options for buffing melee, and still have the option of a smite if they want it. -1D is interesting in that it's flat 2CP no matter how big the squad is. If I was goin to take purifiers, I'd probably take a 10-man squad, and just combat squad them and use them as strikes in matches where it didn't make sense to leverage the strat. Though I'm not sure that even with the -1D they're actually something you would want getting shot. I may be wrong, but at this point the book looks to me like you're better off going MSU and trading than trying to keep anything alive once it exposes itself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 21:29:57


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Should a list have more Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknights, Strike Squads, or Nemesis Dreadknights? Or is it too soon until tournaments show? Thankee thankee. Thank you.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




yukishiro1 wrote:
It's definitely not a monophase army, and you couldn't really build it that way even if you wanted to because all squads come with significant shooting output and psychic abilities. But I don't think fight priority is that big a concern. Fights first isn't that big of a deal unless it's on literally the whole army because you still get the first activation when you're charging. Fights last is a bigger problem, but a lot of those effects are either very close range or keyed off psychic powers that GK have a very good chance at denying. So it's really only stuff like a whirlwind that's super scary. But that is another reason to consider taking a rhino, so you have some place to hide a few squads where you can be sure they won't get debuffed or whittled down before you send them in to do their trade.


I mean, Drukhari are all over the meta right now and grisly trophy supported Incubi will strip that charge bonus right off you, kicking you down to normal initiative (assuming you get to charge the Drukhari, who are quite fast themselves). Drazhar and an Ancient Evil Archon give them 5 sources of this potentially.

Anyway, we're basically in agreement that you need to be well supported in all 3 phases. If you go wide on melee and hit a real melee army that can smash your tempo, you're toast.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You definitely wouldn't want to be charging Incubi if you can help it, that's for sure.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

yukishiro1 wrote:
You definitely wouldn't want to be charging Incubi if you can help it, that's for sure.


Maybe.

Wardmakers have a power to remove the affects of all auras from a target unit. If that goes off, Grisly Trophy doesn't matter.

Thinking Voldus and Terminators are (the start of) an anti-Drukhari option.


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That's not how that ability works. I thought it was good too until I actually read it, all it does is stop an enemy unit from benefitting from aura abilities. It doesn't actually turn auras off, so it does nothing against grisly trophies. It's still quite useful in some cases, but unfortunately it's not nearly as useful as it could have been if it was worded a little more generously.

But every unit in the book has 20 bolter shots from within 12", that's your solution for incubi. Dunno why you'd want to charge them, unless there's only like 1-2 left and you just want to use them as a slingshot to get somewhere.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

yukishiro1 wrote:
That's not how that ability works. I thought it was good too until I actually read it, all it does is stop an enemy unit from benefitting from aura abilities. It doesn't actually turn auras off, so it does nothing against grisly trophies. It's still quite useful in some cases, but unfortunately it's not nearly as useful as it could have been if it was worded a little more generously.

But every unit in the book has 20 bolter shots from within 12", that's your solution for incubi. Dunno why you'd want to charge them, unless there's only like 1-2 left and you just want to use them as a slingshot to get somewhere.


Yeah, good catch.

Processing everything will take some time. This Codex plays differently.




   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




yukishiro1 wrote:
That's not how that ability works. I thought it was good too until I actually read it, all it does is stop an enemy unit from benefitting from aura abilities. It doesn't actually turn auras off, so it does nothing against grisly trophies. It's still quite useful in some cases, but unfortunately it's not nearly as useful as it could have been if it was worded a little more generously.

But every unit in the book has 20 bolter shots from within 12", that's your solution for incubi. Dunno why you'd want to charge them, unless there's only like 1-2 left and you just want to use them as a slingshot to get somewhere.


Incubi have an innate 3+ and you can double their cover bonus with a strat. You're much better off trying to use MW to weaken them.

Charging you might be forced though since they are almost always in a Raider which may absorb the shooting phase.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If they're in cover, sure. If not, smite + the shots from a 5 man squad kill 4 incubi and bring the klaivex down to a wound on average (or wipe the squad if you knocked them out of a raider). Storm bolters are surprising effective even against 3+ saves as long as the thing isn't in cover. There's the +1S -1 AP strat too when you need it.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





so are Grey Knight terminators worth it now?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




No. I mean, they're not terrible, but they're not nearly as competitive as the power armor stuff. Paying almost twice the points for something that basically just gets +1W, +1 save and a 5++ is a pretty hard pill to swallow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/15 06:23:54


 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

How about taking allies in a GK army such as Custodes?

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Grey Knights don't rely as much on their Tides as they did in the previous version. They are much more soup-able into other Imperium armies.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I am working on a custodes/GK soup right now, I think it has real potential. GK also have major soup potential with sisters, ad mech or guard IMO. Anything that gives you something GK don't have - custodes gives you resilient stuff, guard and ad mech give you cheap bodies and shooting, sisters give you effective screens, etc.

What you lose by souping is significant, but not nearly as large as most armies lose.

I do think in general (sisters and ad mech aside) GK are more soupable into other imperium armies than vice versa. I.e. it's more attractive to put 500 points of GK into a custodes or guard army than it is to put 500 points of custodes or guard into a GK army.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/15 17:07:19


 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Gonna dust off my GK which haven't seen the light of day in years (other than one game when I tried out the psychic awakening stuff) for a game tomorrow. What can I do to really buff up a 10-man strike squad? Let's say I had to kill a 20-man necron warrior unit
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, Strikes have a nice offensive potential but I find them too fragile when the enemy hits back.
Footslogging them is a slow way to die.
Deep-strike or transporting them (my favorite is the Razorback) is the only way to go.

Cheap troop fillers would be welcome.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 08:57:19


Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 necron99 wrote:
Gonna dust off my GK which haven't seen the light of day in years (other than one game when I tried out the psychic awakening stuff) for a game tomorrow. What can I do to really buff up a 10-man strike squad? Let's say I had to kill a 20-man necron warrior unit


Nothing? In Convergence with either a GM or Bro-Cap's rerolls the expected outcome of a 10-man Strike team into a 20-bot brick is...all the robots die. All of them.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

Wow... yeah, I just ran the numbers on that: all the strike squad needs is hammerhand, average shooting, then a charge and average melee and all the 20 necron are dead! That's pretty savage!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, that Necron book really is looking more and more dated by the day. Poor Necrons.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

leerm02 wrote:
Wow... yeah, I just ran the numbers on that: all the strike squad needs is hammerhand, average shooting, then a charge and average melee and all the 20 necron are dead! That's pretty savage!
Which weapons?

Running the numbers...

Shooting
40 shots
80/3 hits
40/3 wounds
20/3 failed saves
40/9 dead after Reanimation

Melee, All Halberds
31 attacks
217/9 hits (RR1s)
1,736/81 wounds (RRAll)
8,680/486 or 4,340/243 failed saves
No Reamination, because they're all dead.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there Mortal Wounds in there somewhere too?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

I ran the numbers with swords rather than Halberds, but yeah: 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other...

Poor necrons!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addition: Honestly, it does make me feel a little better about Grey Knights STILL not having storm-shields at least...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 16:18:19


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there Mortal Wounds in there somewhere too?


6's to wound in melee from Tide of Convergence cause 1 MW in addition to other damage.

leerm02 wrote:
I ran the numbers with swords rather than Halberds, but yeah: 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other...


Against Warriors Swords win out due to nulling the save. Immortals, Lichguard and other T5 targets it's a toss up with save / invuln being the determining factor. Lichguard for instance Halberds are preferable as the extra AP is negated by the shields, while the S6 of the halberd shifts the wound roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 16:24:25


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Sterling191 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there Mortal Wounds in there somewhere too?


6's to wound in melee from Tide of Convergence cause 1 MW in addition to other damage.

leerm02 wrote:
I ran the numbers with swords rather than Halberds, but yeah: 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other...


Against Warriors Swords win out due to nulling the save. Immortals, Lichguard and other T5 targets it's a toss up with save / invuln being the determining factor. Lichguard for instance Halberds are preferable as the extra AP is negated by the shields, while the S6 of the halberd shifts the wound roll.
I did Halberds specifically BECAUSE it's probably the worst option you'd see used commonly.

Accounting for Mortal Wounds, a buffed Strike Squad can solo a 20-man Warrior blob with melee alone.

Halberds
31 attacks
217/9 hits (RR1s)
1,736/81 wounds (RRAll), 434/81 of which have an additional Mortal Wound
8,680/486, or 4,340/243, or 17.86 failed saves plus 5.36 Mortal Wounds
No Reamination, because they're all dead.

Let me see what they do to a Knight... Because those Mortals are good.

Halberds vs. Knight
31 attacks
217/9 hits (RR1s)
1,085/81 wounds (RRAll), 1,085/162 of which have an additional Mortal Wound
2,170/243 failed saves
4,340/243 or 17.86 damage, plus 6.70 Mortal Wounds
Just over 24 damage, or enough to one-round a Questoris

Checking Falchions, since they wound on 6s and have a bonus attack...

Falchions vs. Knight
41 attacks
287/9 hits (RR1s)
3,157/324 wounds (RRAll), all of which do an extra Mortal Wound
6,314/972, or 3,157/486, or 6.50 wounds plus 9.74 Mortal Wounds
Only 16 wounds. So Halberds definitely are better for non-hordes.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




A 5-man Rapiers strike squad can kill a 20-man warrior blob or a knight with tide of convergence, hammerhands, the chaplain litany that turns a wound of 6 into two wounding attacks + 2 MW, and the 1CP strat that turns 6s into two hits. It's far and away the most absurd damage potential of any unit in the game for the points cost. And that's not even adding in rerolls to hit from Draigo, or +1 damage on the weapons from a dominus psychic power, or +1 attack from the brotherhood ability.

I'm not sure GW really understands how multiplicative damage increases work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/16 17:15:04


 
   
 
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