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Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






I'm sure there is, but a utopia makes a pretty bad setting for a miniatures wargame.

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Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Is there any reason why the inhabitants of this UTOPIA wont be able to defend themselves from the jealous?

This seems a pretty interesting Scifi idea to model on the tabletop...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QvJajVj28w

... its certainly fairer than fighting with one of the 9th edition codex armies with the outdated ones from 8th edition era.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/31 14:52:42


 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Short answer: Yes

Longer Answer: it depends on your (the narrator) and the people/race/persons in question.

As others have noted, The Utopia for the Orks is relatively easy to create - it could be said that many of them already live in it.

The nearest things to an actual human utopia I can think of are the Culture novels or perhaps the End of Time series by Moorcock where death is nothing more than option and anything is possible.

Can the Imperium achieve this? I don’t think so – they can make pleasant worlds to live on, extend life and provide some decent protection agains the evils of the universe but nothing like the Culture can and does for all of its citizens.

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Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




I mean, I read the actual "Utopia" from Thomas More. Those Utopians are going to war and are pretty badass doing it, they also take slaves (and give them all the gold they have because gold is useless to the utopians and wearing it is a sign of disgrace). Utopians also all wear the same clothes, all of their cities look exactly the same, and they're all happy and try to improve themselves in their freetime.
So, there might be a place for them, or maybe they're even already there in form of the Tau or Eldar.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





leerm02 wrote:
So here is a question up for debate: In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium... is there room for any Utopian (read: "very-good-trying-towards-better" not: "Already perfect") type civilizations?
Sure, but it involves either hiding from everyone or being vastly beyond them. Once you dip your toe in the water the orks will want a piece of you, chaos will want you to be a piece of them, the nids will want to eat you, the eldar will try to throw you under the bus and their dark kin will see it as a personal challenge to screw you over, the tau will start planning your conquest, crons will see you as a threat to their long term plans, and so on.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Of course there is. The setting has at least one million Imperial worlds. Not every world is constantly at war, only the ones GW keeps the focus on.

If every world were at war, then the setting just falls apart. Hive worlds, including Terra, wouldn't be receiving the constant (and I mean constant) deliveries of imported food to maintain their populations. The amount of shipping they would receive hourly to fed populations of hundreds of billions, or more, is ridiculous to think about.

The same could be said for the forge worlds, or the Imperial manufactorums. Without the constant supply of raw materials then the Imperium wouldn't receive the necessary equipment to arm or resupply its soldiers.

I would guess that at least the majority of Imperial held worlds (50% or more) aren't in a state of constant war. With a smaller percentage of those worlds being agri, civilized, or pleasure worlds actually being a decent place to live.
   
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Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Veldrain wrote:
The Imperium does contain paradise worlds. For those that have enough wealth.


Would such a world not need to be entirely self-sufficient to be considered a 'true utopia'? What I mean is that, if a paradise-like planet requires horrible conditions on other planets to sustain it's idyll, does that even count?

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Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Depends on your definition of utopia, and how far you want to zoom out.

I'm sure the Imperium is full of nobles living their own private utopias.

There are also I'm sure a lot of planetary utopias. Although I'm sure many such paradise worlds are perhaps just a veneer for the wealthy to enjoy, I'm there are many with greater standards of living for the working class (how unequal can a society be before it ceases to be a utopia?).

By the time you get to entire systems I'm sure the number of utopian Imperial societies is dropping to zero.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




40k is about as miserable a setting as a person can possibly imagine. So, a instance in that setting where everyone is happy has to be rare, and then brought low when it does happen. Point in case, Ayax of the Ultramar system, during the Plague wars. Basically eden.
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






I think the Imperium inevitably corrupts anything under its jurisdiction. The Planetary governor may intend to keep it as a paradise, but soon the Administratum will start asking what they have to offer, and credits aren't that useful to a war effort that is starved of resources. Maybe a few can sustain it and pay their way to ensure it, but many will start mining, or raising armies, or farming etc and before you know it, a few hundred years down the line, it is just like any other planet.

Outside of the imperium, maybe for humans, but that is a danger in itself, to other races, or the imperium itself.

Eldar life is bleak/fatalistic, whilst they may live a high standard life, the bleak outlook for their race will be a burden.

Tau cannot be considered as most within their society have no free will, whether they realise or not.

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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 kirotheavenger wrote:
Depends on your definition of utopia, and how far you want to zoom out.

I'm sure the Imperium is full of nobles living their own private utopias.

There are also I'm sure a lot of planetary utopias. Although I'm sure many such paradise worlds are perhaps just a veneer for the wealthy to enjoy, I'm there are many with greater standards of living for the working class (how unequal can a society be before it ceases to be a utopia?).

By the time you get to entire systems I'm sure the number of utopian Imperial societies is dropping to zero.

It's not an utopia if it still relies on social stratification, it's just a pleasant world to live on.Utopia is more than "lack of hellish dystopian vibes".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/01 14:49:52


 
   
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






There are worlds that are isolated by warp storms for centuries or longer where it could happen, however breifly. I agree with many others that the very word utpopia is problematic, but we all kinda knew what the original poster meant ie nice place to live.

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Jarms48 wrote:
Of course there is. The setting has at least one million Imperial worlds. Not every world is constantly at war, only the ones GW keeps the focus on.

If every world were at war, then the setting just falls apart. Hive worlds, including Terra, wouldn't be receiving the constant (and I mean constant) deliveries of imported food to maintain their populations. The amount of shipping they would receive hourly to fed populations of hundreds of billions, or more, is ridiculous to think about.

The same could be said for the forge worlds, or the Imperial manufactorums. Without the constant supply of raw materials then the Imperium wouldn't receive the necessary equipment to arm or resupply its soldiers.

I would guess that at least the majority of Imperial held worlds (50% or more) aren't in a state of constant war. With a smaller percentage of those worlds being agri, civilized, or pleasure worlds actually being a decent place to live.


They might not be constantly at war but they are constantly part of the war effort. There might be planets that have never been attacked but their populations are basically slave labour digging out raw materials for the rest of the imperium to use.

I think the key thing is that as long as quotas are met a then planetary governor can be as dystopian or utopian as they like.

All the non imperial worlds where life seemed pretty good were seemingly destroyed by the great crusade
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Les Etats Unis

Cronch wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Depends on your definition of utopia, and how far you want to zoom out.

I'm sure the Imperium is full of nobles living their own private utopias.

There are also I'm sure a lot of planetary utopias. Although I'm sure many such paradise worlds are perhaps just a veneer for the wealthy to enjoy, I'm there are many with greater standards of living for the working class (how unequal can a society be before it ceases to be a utopia?).

By the time you get to entire systems I'm sure the number of utopian Imperial societies is dropping to zero.

It's not an utopia if it still relies on social stratification, it's just a pleasant world to live on.Utopia is more than "lack of hellish dystopian vibes".


Yeah, paradise worlds probably aren't very close to utopias for anyone who's been tasked with serving the guys on top rather than being them.

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 Eldarain wrote:
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

There were plenty of utopias.....in 30K. Then the Crusade reached them, and Compliance.



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




They might not be constantly at war but they are constantly part of the war effort. There might be planets that have never been attacked but their populations are basically slave labour digging out raw materials for the rest of the imperium to use.


Just because a planet has to meet tithe quotas doesn't mean it's forced to use slave labour. There ARE many civilized worlds that are nice places to live, there's been a ton of novels showing that before they're ruined later in the story due to them being invaded, rebelling, etc.

Obviously these events happen due to those planets being the focus of the story, but there would be thousands of civilized worlds where people live lives similar to us today.

I think the key thing is that as long as quotas are met a then planetary governor can be as dystopian or utopian as they like.


This is correct. Out of those peaceful worlds it largely depends on the governor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/02 01:14:38


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Jarms48 wrote:
They might not be constantly at war but they are constantly part of the war effort. There might be planets that have never been attacked but their populations are basically slave labour digging out raw materials for the rest of the imperium to use.


Just because a planet has to meet tithe quotas doesn't mean it's forced to use slave labour. There ARE many civilized worlds that are nice places to live, there's been a ton of novels showing that before they're ruined later in the story due to them being invaded, rebelling, etc.

Obviously these events happen due to those planets being the focus of the story, but there would be thousands of civilized worlds where people live lives similar to us today.

I think the key thing is that as long as quotas are met a then planetary governor can be as dystopian or utopian as they like.


This is correct. Out of those peaceful worlds it largely depends on the governor.


Can you give some example please I’d really like to read about such places in 40k
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





For the Imperium? Certainly not. It would go against their theming if there was a world somewhere that was 'good' and didn't have some sort of huge dark negative aspect.

But elsewhere, I think parts of the Tau society have shown there can be. They've encountered plenty of races who have been relatively fine on their own without having to resort to anything bad that we know of. They were seemingly just quite ordinary civilizations that then joined the Tau.

   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





I actually had the idea of a world that was caught in a warp storm, but instead of being changed into a daemon world, it was, for some reason, transformed into a complete paradise where the needs of every person there were met and more, with absolutely everything being perfect.
   
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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

mrFickle wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
They might not be constantly at war but they are constantly part of the war effort. There might be planets that have never been attacked but their populations are basically slave labour digging out raw materials for the rest of the imperium to use.


Just because a planet has to meet tithe quotas doesn't mean it's forced to use slave labour. There ARE many civilized worlds that are nice places to live, there's been a ton of novels showing that before they're ruined later in the story due to them being invaded, rebelling, etc.

Obviously these events happen due to those planets being the focus of the story, but there would be thousands of civilized worlds where people live lives similar to us today.

I think the key thing is that as long as quotas are met a then planetary governor can be as dystopian or utopian as they like.


This is correct. Out of those peaceful worlds it largely depends on the governor.


Can you give some example please I’d really like to read about such places in 40k


Most of the Imperial Worlds described at the start of novels are pretty normal and often not a bad place to live until the Orks/Stealers/Nids/Necrons/Dark Eldar/ etc arrive/invade

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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Most of the Imperial Worlds described at the start of novels are pretty normal and often not a bad place to live until the Orks/Stealers/Nids/Necrons/Dark Eldar/ etc arrive/invade


This, basically any time a civilized world/agri-world is describe in a novel before everything hits the fan it's basically "X peaceful world was peaceful for thousands of years, until X happened. Cut to current event."
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




Sweden

Yes, but very much limited and local, tucked away and forgotten, a rare oasis in a human hellscape. Often, idyllic little corners will be used as a story plot to underscore the tragedy of a war that wreck the tiny paradise. Contrast is key, and therefore idylls have their given place.

Utopia could have some use for Exodites and Tau.

A more relevant use of the word utopia for 40k, is in the context of movements and states striving for utopia, yet in reaching for heaven they grasp hell. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as the 20th century proved beyond the shadow of a doubt. Now, that would be a meaningful use of utopian idealists creating a massmurdering tyrannical nightmare in the name of paradise on earth, and most appropriate for 40k. Warhammer 40'000 draws upon the most depraved aspects of human history, after all, and there is plenty of inspiration to draw from as to atrocities committed in the name of some utopia or other.

If we speak of utopia as something unreachable, and something that will make idealists go to horrible lengths and wade through rivers of blood to achieve it: Yes! Then sure, there is lots of space for utopian fanatics in 40k.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/27 21:36:11


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

A very well written post sir! Exalted! :-)
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

there is already a utopia in 40k, the orks achieved it in the warp fighting deamons.

They seem to be pretty happy about it too.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Of course there can be "Utopian" movements or ideas within 40K. It's just that these come with tradeoffs, unforeseen consequences, or have difficulty surviving against outside pressures and forces.

For example, a world's ruler might for whatever reason want to make things better for the common masses that are busy working away on their world. If something like more reasonable working hours or holidays (beyond any officially approved Imperium holy days) are implemented, productivity might fall and then might make the world unable to meet its tithe and then being subject to Imperial reprisals. Local taxes for the upper classes/nobles with the purpose of that going towards improving social services for others? You might get then a noble revolt as their power and profits fall.

What if a well meaning demagogue leads an uprising of the oppressed underclass against the existing rulers? Even if they are successful and even if Imperial reprisals are not immediately forthcoming, then there might be mob justice and unstable government like a Reign of Terror from the French Revolution. There would be the threat of Chaos mutation and infiltration of the underclass such as any mutant underclass (who are often present on worlds as cheap labor).

Even if somehow these two above kinds of things somehow got navigated successfully, the Imperium still might just turn around and say "You are wasting resources on these people that could be better tithed to serve the rest of the Imperium" and raise the tithe requirements accordingly. The Imperium on a large scale is under siege. While it may turn a blind eye towards the luxurious lifestyles of the noble classes, that numerically are still a tiny fraction of the total population, a world that is prospering well enough to raise the standard of living for its masses clearly is rich enough to afford higher tithes. How can a world be allowed to wallow in widespread "decadence" when the rest of the Imperium needs every scrap of resources and manpower to fend off its enemies?

A pacifist hippy movement sweep over a world? They are left open and vulnerable to just about every other faction, and the Imperium would still demand its tithe of soldiers.

An attempt to revive scientific thinking and innovation to raise humanity back towards the Age of Technology? We have an example of that from the Dark Heresy RPG in the form of the Logician movement. The scientific system of rational inquiry has been so long absent from humanity that attempts to pursue it seem to devolve into mad scientist doing crazy things "For Science!"

Some reformer try to streamline and untangle the bureaucracy? Uprising and upheaval as all the unemployed workers from now eliminated useless paper shuffling jobs protest the loss of a job that may have been in their family for generations.

Now if it comes to other races, then the Craftworlders are perhaps the closest to a physical Utopia though it is at a mental cost. They have lives of plenty unimaginable to the average Imperial citizen, with no need for menial labor (unless they choose the Path of Service) and they are free to pursue whatever Paths they want, and there does not seem to be any risk of physical harm from other Craftworlders (excluding Saim-hann honor duels). The Craftworld itself monitors its inhabitants and protects them from major physical harm. As an example, an Eldar character in on of Gav Thorpe's novels contemplates suicide by jumping off a bridge but concludes it would be futile as the Craftworld would just generate a force field to catch him. However on closer examination, this comes at the price of mental freedom. The Craftworld Infinity Circuits and its living inhabits apparently form a psychic gestalt and the individual Eldar seem to be steered unconsciously towards Paths that end up meeting the Craftworld's needs, so an Eldar might not even really choosing their Paths. Eldar are also at risk of being ostracized and the Valedor novel depicting Iyanden describes how some retreat to living like hermits. Think of it as living in an Eldar version of Pleasantville, where life seems great but you have to conform.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/04 13:08:44


 
   
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on the forum. Obviously

In theory there is bound to be one utopia in the Imperium, simply due to the sheer variety of worlds available.
Whether or not it lasts is another matter entirely.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In theory there is bound to be one utopia in the Imperium, simply due to the sheer variety of worlds available.
Whether or not it lasts is another matter entirely.


I'd go so far to say that there are probably 100-500 utopias going on at any given time in 40k.

It's just a rolling thing:
Life's crap--->make it better--->Administratum finds out--->more tithe--->life's crap--->Hive Fleet/waaargh/tomb world, etc...--->resettlement 1000yrs later--->lather, rinse, repeat.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut







Depending on your worldview, certain Slaaneshi worlds could be a utopia.

Much of the modern distaste for "excess" is that it must, invariably, come with a dark side. Excessive consumption means planetary resource destruction, excessive sex means children you have to feed and moral depravity, etc etc.

It's conceivable though that there is a "paradise" (again, depending on your worldview) on some Slaaneshi daemon world or within the realm of Slaanesh.

The only price would be selling your soul to Slaanesh for accessing it - for some, this is a horrific drawback and in alignment with "paradise comes with a cost" theme, but for others (who don't care about souls f.e.) it could be paying nothing to get everything.

Of course, there's the whole "hedonic treadmill" problem...
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

There are some utopia worlds. I do belive if your read the novels, rpg and background books you can find some good stuff. Most of the setting is sett on the fringe, of warriors VS warriors. Places of conflict. Therefore an utopia is not really what the game is looking for.

We know the Eldar had utopia for a long time. It did not last though. But depending of how you define it the energy vampires are stil rocking under the enslaved suns and slums up in khomoraugh.

Also, decadent utopia sounds like slanesh if you ask me.

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The Varanspire

No room for Utopia, but plenty of room for Omelas. The point of grimdark is that there is always a dark secret, or a seed of corruption, or a terrible price to pay, no matter how shiny things appear on the surface. Without at least a suggestion of moral compromise, it's simply not grimdark.

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