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Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





United Kingdom

For coming back to the hobby after a long hiatus, I would recommend taking a barebones unit of troops, character and vehicle (preferably with the opponent having the same units for balance' sake) and just taking it phase by phase until everything clicks. Then adding more units, diversifying the forces and wargear, adding terrain, etc until everything is in play and it all makes sense.


As far as my hobby story goes, I started just at the very end of 3rd when a friend of mine bought a copy of White Dwarf into school and I saw a Skaven army and thought they were beyond cool. I then went into my local GW and saw a guy fighting some Chaos Marines with his Orks and I fell down the green rabbit hole and left the store with a box of Ork boys and a warboss.

I dropped out of the hobby just before 6th edition launched due to friends moving away and generally growing apart as we got older, as people do, and then got back into it around the middle point of 8th when I discovered that some new friends of mine were interested in getting back into the game. Unfortunately I sold all of my Orks and IG when I dropped out and have been rebuilding my Waaagh ever since
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
To their credit, I might not have made the best first impression to make them want to play me. I introduced myself by unapologetically erasing the Silent King in one turn, which made my opponent claim that Exorcists were OP and will be limited to 1 per army when the codex came [spoiler alert, they weren't. Also, seriously dude? You brought the Silent King and Nightbringer, and you're complaining about my Exorcists.]


That's what I'd call a scrub player. No introspection. He should have recognized how improbable that scenario is unless you took out the Menirs beforehand. If someone had multiple Exorcists I'd be hiding my ass ( since SK can obscure ) for a while.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ahhh, but new Exorcists can indirect fire now. (Though I think it's a strat, so only one of them can do it per turn and only if you're willing to burn the CP)
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Sim-Life wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. I mean, the "delete opponent's star model in a single shooting phase" is a problem in casual play.

I genuinely feel bad when my opponent brings his favorite (X) and my army instantly deletes it. Conversely, it always sucks when it happens to me, too.

But what are you gonna do? Hide it behind terrain?.... oh, it's 18 wounds.


I assumed New Model Syndrome was a universal thing.


It's not always new models. I've had models for years that are still the "star" model in a given game that get instantly deleted by the enemy army. It's just a 40k thing.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

With so many on the table and the game taking so long you have to be able to delete things rapidly...
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Daedalus81 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
To their credit, I might not have made the best first impression to make them want to play me. I introduced myself by unapologetically erasing the Silent King in one turn, which made my opponent claim that Exorcists were OP and will be limited to 1 per army when the codex came [spoiler alert, they weren't. Also, seriously dude? You brought the Silent King and Nightbringer, and you're complaining about my Exorcists.]


That's what I'd call a scrub player. No introspection. He should have recognized how improbable that scenario is unless you took out the Menirs beforehand. If someone had multiple Exorcists I'd be hiding my ass ( since SK can obscure ) for a while.


This was quite a while ago, but I shot through the whole thing on the first turn before he could do anything with it. It took basically my entire army's shooting. It's not actually improbable, my lists are generally made to kill Lords of War on turn 1 if I want to. If there's specific enemy units that are key supporters, key parts of their army, or the only thing that can do something, I typically aim to be able to suppress such an element in my opening round.

That said, my frustration isn't really about the guy complaining about my exorcists. It's more that people don't message me back when I message to arrange games, and have told me that they can't make a game that we arranged to play the week before but still can show up to play somebody else or even just hang out at the store with the other people who are playing.

I've just figured that they don't want to play me. And I understand it: I'm not their friend, and I don't really aspire to be more than acquaintances who play games at the store. We don't really play the game the same way either, and I think the feeling is mutual.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. I mean, the "delete opponent's star model in a single shooting phase" is a problem in casual play.

I genuinely feel bad when my opponent brings his favorite (X) and my army instantly deletes it. Conversely, it always sucks when it happens to me, too.

But what are you gonna do? Hide it behind terrain?.... oh, it's 18 wounds.


I assumed New Model Syndrome was a universal thing.


It's not always new models. I've had models for years that are still the "star" model in a given game that get instantly deleted by the enemy army. It's just a 40k thing.


I go out of my way to be able to do that. This is a wargame, not an RPG.

In fact, I think it would be a problem if you couldn't do that. I don't think I've played any other wargame where there was a single model so impressive and significant that it couldn't be killed if you tried.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/16 16:15:46


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
In fact, I think it would be a problem if you couldn't do that. I don't think I've played any other wargame where there was a single model so impressive and significant that it couldn't be killed if you tried.


There's a difference between "killed" and "instantly deleted"

In a recent Chain of Command game, I had a KV-1 in mid-war, and my German opponent brought a Marder 2. A Soviet armored car arrived at the battlefield first, provoking the Marder into revealing its ambush position and opening fire. The KV-1 arrived soon after and its first shot killed the Marder's driver, a great win for the KV-1! The Marder and its hull-mounted gun were crippled!

The KV-1 advanced up the field, duelling with a 5cm PaK as the German infantry scrambled for cover. Shells flew as the Marder crew desperately tried to get someone in the driver's position as the armored car took it under fire - after all, the 45mm gun was easily enough against the thinly armored German tank destroyer!

The KV-1 easily endured the fire of the 5cm gun, advancing inexorably... but the armored car could not succeed against the marder, missing once and bouncing off once (aim for the thin superstructure, not the armored hull you dingus!). With a new crewman in the driver's position, the Marder swung and fired, only to bounce from the KV-1's armored hide!

Thusly provoked, the KV-1 took the Marder under fire, but the lucky tank destroyer was missed by the overly-quick shot from the worried Soviet gunner. German infantry, approaching the armored car, drove back the thinly-armored beast with the threat of a compound charge as the heavy tank and tank destroyer duelled in the middle of the board!

The Marder's next shot struck the KV-1 with a severe impact, causing spalling on the inside of the armor and inflicting 2 shock, temporarily degrading the performance of the Soviet crew from superficial injuries and ringing ears! Unfortunately, such a degradation meant the gunner on the KV-1 missed again, unable to adjust from his earlier shot, and the Marder struck again, driving the KV-1 back and panicking the driver! This movement (plus the lingering shock that the Soviet tank commander had not rallied off) once again disrupted the tank gunner's aim, missing the Marder. Finally, the Marder's next shot found a weakpoint in the heavy Soviet beast, the APHE shell burrowing through the driver's hatch and detonating within the KV-1, forcing the surviving crew to evacuate the tank as ammunition started to burn...

Meanwhile, there's this whole OTHER duel between the infantry squad and the armored car happening in the woods on the other flank, with's its own successes and failures (eventually resulting in the armored car's destruction via a satchel charge).

In short, things DIED, but they weren't DELETED.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/16 16:14:03


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





It depends on the scale of the game:

I play a bunch of games.

In Flames of War and Dropzone Commander, units are brought by the platoon and company. Tigers are well armored, but die pretty instantly to IS-2's. This is okay, There are more platoons of Panzer 4's, Pak 40's, LeFH 105mm guns, and Panzergrenadiers here. An entire dropship of Sabres can be shot down, but there are more Sabres landing.
In Battletech, you have like 4 'mechs. It's impractical to play with more than a lance. A 'mech can get it's head taken out by a PPC, but they don't usually. You don't expect your units to die outright because there are only like 4 of them.
In MonPoc, which is a miniatures game but isn't really a wargame, you each have only one or two monsters, and the game is about your monsters punching each other into buildings with a variety of kicks and punches and bodyslams. It wouldn't work if a monster could be targeted off the board.


40k and Legion are kind of in the middle, trending more towards the side of being an army rather than a character or team. You don't quite have like 30 T-34's as just part of your army, but you also have way more than 1 monster or 4 'mechs. Things are expected to be destroyed, and I don't think there should be an expectation that anything deserves to live to do it's thing. Like it's a wargame, not an RPG.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/16 17:01:57


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





To tag into the conversation between Unit and Inq Lord- I very much play 40k like an RPG because Crusade. But this also reveals a difference in the "your unit getting to do something" - for me, the scale of that is the campaign, not the game.

One of my key units- say, the repentia who are seeking to absolve themselves or the canoness who is undergoing one of the trials of sainthood- may be destroyed on turn 1 of a given game without having the opportunity to contribute to the battle at all. It doesn't really bum me out, because I know the odds of that unit surviving to fight in the next battle are really, really high. The fact that they WILL be deleted in some battles actually increases the sense of achievement I feel when they meet or exceed expectations in others.

On a side note, and this one to Unit specifically, one of the things you and I have discussed in the past is just how difficult it is for units in Crusade to actually die unless the controlling player wants it to happen for story purposes.

In some contexts, I know Unit sees this as a weakness in the system- I don't even entirely disagree. But for me, because I judge my army's performance at the campaign level, rather than the individual battle level, increasing campaign mortality would be the "bad-feel" equivalent for me of a turn one "deletion" - which is why I don't see a lack of campaign mortality being as problematic as it has been classified in previous discussions with Unit on the topic.

Again, not trying to invalidate anyone else's experience or point of view- just posting to demonstrate the range of ways in which the game can be played.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/16 17:23:11


 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Well - This brings up another point - herohammer and its effect on list building and gameplay.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







See, for me, caring about an individual unit is like caring about an individual hitpoint on a DnD character.

I guess it comes from playing Imperial Guard, where "heroes" last about 1/10th of the first combat they see (ingame) and the lore heroes are like, 10 people out of a galaxy of googlezillions (and have plot armor thicker than Terra).
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
See, for me, caring about an individual unit is like caring about an individual hitpoint on a DnD character.

I guess it comes from playing Imperial Guard, where "heroes" last about 1/10th of the first combat they see (ingame) and the lore heroes are like, 10 people out of a galaxy of googlezillions (and have plot armor thicker than Terra).


I feel like this is contrary to your previous point , since you clearly care if some of your units get blown up.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/17 01:45:31


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
See, for me, caring about an individual unit is like caring about an individual hitpoint on a DnD character.

I guess it comes from playing Imperial Guard, where "heroes" last about 1/10th of the first combat they see (ingame) and the lore heroes are like, 10 people out of a galaxy of googlezillions (and have plot armor thicker than Terra).


I feel like this is contrary to your previous point , since you clearly care if some of your units get blown up.



I think I said I care that they get blown up too quickly, not that they get blown up at all.

Are you reading what I write or just being snarky for no reason?

A unit going down after an epic struggle (my poor KV-1) vice a unit instantly bursting like a pinata because my opponent decides they don't want it on the table anymore.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/17 12:22:36


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

I think it helps to explain the 'killed' vs 'deleted' distinction. Something being killed is kind of expected over the course of a wargame, but having stuff be killed in interesting, scale-appropriate ways is what you want. Having an infantry squad removed from play in a single turn in a Necromunda-sized skirmish game is bad, and okay in a Warhammer-sized battle game is alright. Having a squad of individual models whittled down over the course of a game is probably better, particularly if doing so affects the squad's behaviour in some way, rather than the members just acting as wound-markers.

Having some way of addressing enemy units or elements beyond just deleting them like you would in a card game is probably better, so that there's some interesting, non-binary game states and it's not just a game better implemented like Hearthstone than Warhammer.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

For all those defending deletion - do you see the hoops GW has to jump through to make some units survivable? A host of special rules, the core rules on their own rarely seem to cut it.

Compare to another GW game, Epic A. There unless the unit is a small fragile scouting formation or an infantry unit caught in the open with no cover or transport vehicles you can reasonably expect 2 turns of contributions, even if they break and have to rally turn one from two much attention. Big units like Gargants costing 28% of your army can tank even more, having one survive for two turns everything the enemy can throw in it if it has some cover is not unreasonable.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





The_Real_Chris wrote:For all those defending deletion - do you see the hoops GW has to jump through to make some units survivable? A host of special rules, the core rules on their own rarely seem to cut it.

Compare to another GW game, Epic A. There unless the unit is a small fragile scouting formation or an infantry unit caught in the open with no cover or transport vehicles you can reasonably expect 2 turns of contributions, even if they break and have to rally turn one from two much attention. Big units like Gargants costing 28% of your army can tank even more, having one survive for two turns everything the enemy can throw in it if it has some cover is not unreasonable.


Keep in mind that at the same time they've also basically gutted the firepower of units. Weapons that used to outright remove MEQ units doesn't even kill one single marine on average.

The lethality increase isn't because guns are more killy, it's because you can use your guns and melee more when you used to not be able to.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
See, for me, caring about an individual unit is like caring about an individual hitpoint on a DnD character.

I guess it comes from playing Imperial Guard, where "heroes" last about 1/10th of the first combat they see (ingame) and the lore heroes are like, 10 people out of a galaxy of googlezillions (and have plot armor thicker than Terra).


I feel like this is contrary to your previous point , since you clearly care if some of your units get blown up.



I think I said I care that they get blown up too quickly, not that they get blown up at all.

Are you reading what I write or just being snarky for no reason?

A unit going down after an epic struggle (my poor KV-1) vice a unit instantly bursting like a pinata because my opponent decides they don't want it on the table anymore.


I was kind of being snarky, but also being real.

I very strongly don't think each unit deserves an epic struggle, and it especially doesn't deserve one more just because you like it more than your other ones. Not every unit is the tank at the Rasineai crossroad; those sort of things are largely happenstance. Some also encounter an 88 in a gun pit.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The_Real_Chris wrote:
For all those defending deletion - do you see the hoops GW has to jump through to make some units survivable? A host of special rules, the core rules on their own rarely seem to cut it.

Compare to another GW game, Epic A. There unless the unit is a small fragile scouting formation or an infantry unit caught in the open with no cover or transport vehicles you can reasonably expect 2 turns of contributions, even if they break and have to rally turn one from two much attention. Big units like Gargants costing 28% of your army can tank even more, having one survive for two turns everything the enemy can throw in it if it has some cover is not unreasonable.


People are going over the top on units getting "deleted" and I find it a bit silly.

Unit described a KV-1 and an armored car with infantry versus a Pak, a Marder, and infantry.

A KV-1 is a HEAVY tank. It was 44 tons and a Tiger was 50. A Marder 2 was tiny by comparison at 11 tons. In Bolt Action the KV-1 costs 280. A Pak and Marder are 165 + 75 ( 240 ).

What happens in 40K when you have equal points trying to kill each other? We'll let's make a scenario. I'll even roll some dice.

A Landraider ( 265 )vs an Onager with a Beamer ( 115 ) and two AC Chickens ( 130 ). So the KV-1 got the drop on the enemy so the Landraider will, too.

The Landraider roared over the embankment bringing the Ballistarii and Dunecrawler into view and unleashed it's firepower into the spider-like warmachine. The lascannons lanced out trying to slice into it, but only managed a glancing hit ( 2 damage ). The report of the heavy bolters the put their attention to the Ballistarii trying to silence them and even though multiple shots impacted on it's shield none managed to create a lasting result.

Emboldened the Ballistarii circled the behemoth working towards the nearest cover for the next node lay there and they needed to be present to activate it ( Uncharted Sequencing ). Their Autocannons screeched toward the Landraider and managed to put some solid fire into the tracks ( 6 damage ). The Onager crew knew it needed to close the distance if it were to easily pierce the armor on the unholy machine, but the gunner was nervous about the advance and the Eradication Beamer failed to connect directly ( 2 shots ) and did no damage.

Vile possessed spilled forth from the Landraider and started towards the Ballistarii only stropping briefly to uplink with some arcane device ( Octarius Data ). The Landraider crew enraged that their enemy had not fallen placed everything into the Onager. The Heavy Bolters plinked off, but two lascannons hit home and a third nearly didn't, but the Onager staggered from the first two blasts and fell into the beam on the third ( CP reroll ). The energy severely crippled the walker ( 8 damage ) and it would struggle to connect with the crew either wounded or killed.

Broken but not beaten the surviving Onager crew sung datahymns to the machine spirit and the machine roared to life for one final push ( count as full wounds ). The Eradication Beamer crackled with intense energy ( 6 shots ) and it landed fully on the face of the Landraider cracking it's hull ( 6 damage ) and the Ballistarii took advantage put everything that had into it and the beast slowly creaked to a halt and it's engines stopped ( 6 damage; didn't explode ).


And simple as that. Nothing died immediately, because it's pretty hard to kill things with equal points even with varying degrees of good and bad luck. Yes, when you have OTHER units focus their power to kill something it dies, which would not be much different from there being an '88 nearby that kills the KV-1 suddenly.

With WW2 games you get a lot of missing and dramatic showdowns, because their cannons are literally firing one shot and it becomes super swingy ( unless you're like a tracked AA gun ).


   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





There's a lot wrong going on there that makes your point not as good as you think it is.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Sim-Life wrote:
There's a lot wrong going on there that makes your point not as good as you think it is.


What's wrong about it?

   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
There's a lot wrong going on there that makes your point not as good as you think it is.


What's wrong about it?


A bunch.


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
There's a lot wrong going on there that makes your point not as good as you think it is.


What's wrong about it?


Among other things "equal points don't just one-shot each other" assumes the attacker isn't horribly underpriced and the defender isn't horribly overpriced.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 AnomanderRake wrote:
Among other things "equal points don't just one-shot each other" assumes the attacker isn't horribly underpriced and the defender isn't horribly overpriced.


Well, we've done this dance so, yes, some codexes might have a harder go of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
A bunch.


Like stuff...and things?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/17 19:13:41


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







What I described were two armies going at each other.

What you described was a loose collection of units going at each other.

If you put 2 2k armies on the board, you absolutely will see units get instantly deleted as soon as they leave LOS-blocking terrain if the enemy prioritizes them.
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





 Daedalus81 wrote:

Like stuff...and things?


Yeah. I don't really have the energy for a big internet fight but there is a lot wrong with it. Lets just go with
-cherry picking
-false comparison
-vaccum
-narritive fallacy


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Stopped playing regularly at end of 5th.
Why?
1. Opponents left for other towns as did I due to life.
2. Unwillingness to pay for "play tax" in form of introductions of constant, newer editions.


How I do play 40K now?
Single-player missions (custom 2nd or custom 3rd-6th rules) because I won't invite strangers in my home and due to Covid. Better stay safe than sorry.
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Started in 88 or so with RT when I was 19.
(only started miniatures gaming itself in 1987).

Stopped playing at the start of 6th ed, when I didn't like the direction it was going in then.

Every so often, I see a model I like the look of, take a second look at the price, and stay resolute on my "Nope, not going back" stance (not to 9th. Some friends want to go back to 5th ed, and I'm fine with that.). Still have my marines, eldar and GK (5th ed codex) to play with. Only hated the rules from 6th ed onwards, the models are separate to this.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't really like 9th so I'll probably skate by most of it at this point and see what 10th feels like.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't really like 9th so I'll probably skate by most of it at this point and see what 10th feels like.


I'm in the same boat. I don't like the shallow core rules, stratagems can go die in a fire, and my favourite army is strong but also unbelievably dull.

Granted, I'm doubtful 10th will change any of that (given that all previous editions have only continued the decline) but I guess we'll see.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 vipoid wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't really like 9th so I'll probably skate by most of it at this point and see what 10th feels like.


I'm in the same boat. I don't like the shallow core rules, stratagems can go die in a fire, and my favourite army is strong but also unbelievably dull.

Granted, I'm doubtful 10th will change any of that (given that all previous editions have only continued the decline) but I guess we'll see.


I'm of the same mind as yourself , hope is low, but I doubt it can get worse at this point with strats. Stay strong my brother from across the pond. We may be surprised, I hope we are surprised.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 05:53:12


 
   
 
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