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2021/11/06 13:03:15
Subject: Re:How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
I never concede, but I don't play tournaments or anything that's really time sensitive. I mostly play friendly pick-up games and narrative games with friends. How bad you lose can have an impact on the narrative.
2021/11/06 17:49:32
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
So this topic comes from two inspirations. Firstly, the Eldar v Dark Eldar battle report on W+, and my own lack of experience actually playing the modern game.
See, in that battle report, it goes all the way to turn 4 with CWE firmly in control, only for a pretty dramatic turn around in favour of the DE. The CWE then concedes as whilst he still had some forces left on the board, he had no real way to score VPs. So beyond some petty revenge killing DE models, the outcome was pretty much set. So one can understand it wasn’t a rage quit or anything negative, just an acknowledgement of when you’re beaten.
Thinking back to when I used to play regularly, and actually knew all the rules better than most, it was kind of rare for me to concede. I was by no means a great player like, I just preferred to spin it out. Of course back then I got VPs for just killing stuff, so unlike the example above, there was always a chance to force a draw, or squeak a narrow victory. The only times I’d concede was when it was clear I’d angered the Dice Gods, and just couldn’t roll for toffee as they shunted all my luck to my opponent.
Yet from my casual browsing on Dakka, I understand the game is a good deal more deadly these days, and you can lose a fair chunk of your own army before it’s had a chance to do anything. And this has lead to me have at least a perception that an opponent conceding may be more common as a result. After all, if you lose your synergy in a game which rewards synergy and stacking, you simply may be faced with a hopeless task beyond a forlorn hope.
For clarity, this is not intended or to become a thread to bash folk who concede at any point. I’m simply trying to figure out if it’s become a more common resolution to games over the editions.
Given my example of someone conceding, and that case’s specific circs, I think I’d count games where you conceding wouldn’t have changed the outcome, but you played it out for the joy of rolling dice.
Right, off you go! As ever, keep it respectable, keep it on topic.
I conceded if there's no possible way for me to win, but I also try not too as long as the possibility exists.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2021/11/07 02:21:31
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
Ya'll do you, but if it's going to be another 2 hours or so to a foregone conclusion, I have better things to do with my time.
I have seen my share of comebacks from behind and stuck it out to try, but if the situation is clear, I'd rather stop there and do another game or move on to something else.
It never ends well
2021/11/07 02:26:26
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
9th honestly seems built for concessions. Its victory structure is about accounting, and at some point the math adds up and the players need to stop wasting each other's time. Especially on a game night, where there may well be others waiting to play.
Alternately, ditching 9th's 'victory accounting' altogether may be a better way to go about things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/07 02:27:17
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/11/07 08:57:35
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
epronovost wrote: I never concede, but I don't play tournaments or anything that's really time sensitive. I mostly play friendly pick-up games and narrative games with friends. How bad you lose can have an impact on the narrative.
I understand narrative scenarios but if a pick up game is screwed so early conceding might let you play another game.
2021/11/07 09:36:50
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
I have never conceded even a very one sided game, I will fight every moment till the bitter end, ask for no mercy and give none. I'm not stuck in that game with them, they are stuck in it with me. I'm intensely stubborn and quit is not a thing I will purposely do, regardless of if I can win or not in the end. Fighting through a losing battle is in itself a lesson to be learned.
Who I am playing against can quit if they wish to, I will not however.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I tend to concede when the game won't be fun anymore.
If the remaining turns of narrative are "huddled survivors are systematically hunted down and butchered" there's no reason to take the time to play that out - I can easily write that outcome down.
Those are some of the funniest outcomes when they try their hardest and can't kill them all and that brave last few guardsmen live then just remind the opponent that " Cadia Stands ! ". I've actually had one guy get pissed I didn't accept my shame for being crushed most of the game just because I still had some epic moments. Tough times can make strong memories but I can see where not everyone wants to do that as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/07 09:43:36
2021/11/07 13:45:07
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
I am usually playing with tanks, so it consists typically of getting stuck in combat and rolling quintillion dice on both sides to little effect.
That's part of my problem with 9th. My army might survive, but my god that isn't fun to play out.
Bring stuck in combat and unable to fire out or really move for 3 turns sucks with Guard tanks. I could fall back, but I am not going to outrun an enemy charge and it just eats up a huge amount of time... and that's assuming the enemy anti-tank weapons aren't lining up a shot.
2021/11/07 13:58:40
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
I concede a game more often now than before.
It comes down to my army is combat ineffective by turn 3 and the score has gotten too far away from me being able to even catch up for a tie. So what's the point of continuing.
This was not somethin that happened too often to me in earlier editions, where even being nearly tabled I stood a chance of still winning a game. Unlike 9th where I have literally 1 person I can game with and he's always only interested in the GT match play missions/itc games. Which are horribly dull for me. at this point I have played all of 6 games of 9th. It's been a real drag to the point where I just hope to make it 5 turns, a 5 turn game would feel like a victory.
The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.
Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.
2021/11/07 14:11:49
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am usually playing with tanks, so it consists typically of getting stuck in combat and rolling quintillion dice on both sides to little effect.
That's part of my problem with 9th. My army might survive, but my god that isn't fun to play out.
Bring stuck in combat and unable to fire out or really move for 3 turns sucks with Guard tanks. I could fall back, but I am not going to outrun an enemy charge and it just eats up a huge amount of time... and that's assuming the enemy anti-tank weapons aren't lining up a shot.
Hmm, yeah. I miss Tank Shock.
2021/11/07 14:25:30
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am usually playing with tanks, so it consists typically of getting stuck in combat and rolling quintillion dice on both sides to little effect.
That's part of my problem with 9th. My army might survive, but my god that isn't fun to play out.
Bring stuck in combat and unable to fire out or really move for 3 turns sucks with Guard tanks. I could fall back, but I am not going to outrun an enemy charge and it just eats up a huge amount of time... and that's assuming the enemy anti-tank weapons aren't lining up a shot.
Have you found that the non-Blast weapons being able to fire in combat has helped in this regard compared to 8th?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2021/11/07 14:46:02
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am usually playing with tanks, so it consists typically of getting stuck in combat and rolling quintillion dice on both sides to little effect.
That's part of my problem with 9th. My army might survive, but my god that isn't fun to play out.
Bring stuck in combat and unable to fire out or really move for 3 turns sucks with Guard tanks. I could fall back, but I am not going to outrun an enemy charge and it just eats up a huge amount of time... and that's assuming the enemy anti-tank weapons aren't lining up a shot.
Have you found that the non-Blast weapons being able to fire in combat has helped in this regard compared to 8th?
Well, it has helped compared to 8th, but Guard tanks especially aren't that good at shooting. Unless I build with the expectation of Close Combat (I.E. heavy flamers) then it doesn't help much. Uncrippled tanks are hitting on 5s, damaged tanks on 6s, etc. And I don't bring heavy flamers on all my tanks in the interest of diversity. So Heavy Flamers are pretty good and more useful with locked in combat tanks, but don't make the game that much more fun. If my decision-making in the game is:
"Fire flamers at the thing nearby, fire the cannon at the enemy far away in case the flamers work" then that's not really interesting. I can't choose where to move, I can't choose targets (except for the "just in case" cannon)... I basically can't do anything except roll a quintillion dice.
It's just kind of a slog any way you look at it. If I'm locked up with a 20 man mob of (X horde unit), then 3 heavy flamers will kill like... 4-7 on average (depending on saves). Lots of dice (roll 3d6 to hit, roughly 10d6 to wound, roughly 7 wounds, then 7 saves if AP permits). That's 3 shooting phases locked up - or, the rest of the game if I get locked on bottom of Turn 2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/07 15:04:03
2021/11/07 16:37:11
Subject: Re:How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
I tend to play things out since the last couple of turns tend to be the most interesting when there’s not much left on the table. That said I did concede a game in a recent “friendly” tournament, I was most likely going to lose anyway due to the wacky (fun!) deployments/missions and my opponent was awful to interact with. I should’ve just played in the regular GT at the event.
2021/11/08 00:04:33
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am usually playing with tanks, so it consists typically of getting stuck in combat and rolling quintillion dice on both sides to little effect.
That's part of my problem with 9th. My army might survive, but my god that isn't fun to play out.
Bring stuck in combat and unable to fire out or really move for 3 turns sucks with Guard tanks. I could fall back, but I am not going to outrun an enemy charge and it just eats up a huge amount of time... and that's assuming the enemy anti-tank weapons aren't lining up a shot.
Have you found that the non-Blast weapons being able to fire in combat has helped in this regard compared to 8th?
No. Basically no tank smaller than a super heavy is going to unstick itself, so for the vast majority of tanks it's a meaningless rule. In addition, the enemy had the choice of what unit to engage the tank with, so it's effect should already have been suppressed anyway even if it could deal meaningful damage to the unit engaging it. Also, almost all IG tanks have blast weapons for their main armament, so it's a moot point anyway.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/08 00:06:50
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2021/11/08 02:44:03
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am usually playing with tanks, so it consists typically of getting stuck in combat and rolling quintillion dice on both sides to little effect.
That's part of my problem with 9th. My army might survive, but my god that isn't fun to play out.
Bring stuck in combat and unable to fire out or really move for 3 turns sucks with Guard tanks. I could fall back, but I am not going to outrun an enemy charge and it just eats up a huge amount of time... and that's assuming the enemy anti-tank weapons aren't lining up a shot.
Have you found that the non-Blast weapons being able to fire in combat has helped in this regard compared to 8th?
No. Basically no tank smaller than a super heavy is going to unstick itself, so for the vast majority of tanks it's a meaningless rule. In addition, the enemy had the choice of what unit to engage the tank with, so it's effect should already have been suppressed anyway even if it could deal meaningful damage to the unit engaging it. Also, almost all IG tanks have blast weapons for their main armament, so it's a moot point anyway.
I'll disagree a tiny bit. Not about dedicated anti-tank units making in to CC with tanks, but during 8th I threw unit remnants and who-knows-what into vehicles to stop them from firing all the time. The new rules do counter those tactics to some degree. Like I can't toss a depleted unit of Scouts or Termagants into a Leman Russ Commander to nullify it anymore.
(I guess the LRCs would usually be armed with Plasma Cannons anyways, but HBs should be able to peel off a small squad)
Can you stick Multimeltas on the LR Sponsons these days? Is that a thing?
In any game, I can only concede when 2 things are both true:
1) Victory is mathematically impossible (As in, no amount of rolling 6's will get my remaining units onto an objective more than 15" away that I have to have that turn to win)
2) There is no interesting, plausible alternative goal I can come up with for my remaining forces to keep myself invested (e.g. I can't win the game, but I can still kill the psyker who killed my big tank, or play out the duel between the HQ monsters, or bring down their big Knight, or just hold the fuel station for a turn to spite the presumably gas-guzzling Speed Freeks currently running rampant.) Note that 'Survive' can be counted as a plausible goal, if I feel that it's an interesting question.
Other factors include:
3) Especially in narrative: The force in question would retreat under the circumstances. Some of my armies are made of more sensible or at least self-preserving people than others are, and when I would 'retreat' playing Imperial Guard or an Ultramarines successor versus when I'd 'retreat' playing a hypothetical army of World Eaters would be quite different margins - every individual kill the latter could still achieve would count as potentially 'interesting,' after all.
4) Margin of victory is not a factor in whatever I'm doing. My presence in tournaments of any stripe is exceedingly rare (As in, I haven't done so for any game since the pandemic hit, and I wasn't a frequent tournament attendant even before that) so this is similarly a rare factor,
Of course, how liberally 2 can be applied might depend partially on mood and opponent gregariousness and other subjective factors, but that's about the sum of it; I physically cannot win, and my ability to influence the remaining game has waned to the point that sticking around would only be to act as a punching bag for the opponent as well as possibly even out of character.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/08 23:47:47
"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"
-Tex Talks Battletech on GW
2021/11/09 12:12:38
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
Personally, i've conceded once in 20 years of playing and that was in 8th edition in turn 5 in a game where I was using a very uncompetitive/tuned mono khorne CSMs against a tuned and competitive tau army (post psychic awakening).
Otherwise I often have opponents concede. In casual games it is often turn 4+ as I really don't run competitive lists but in competitive games has been as early as turn 2.
- 10,000 pts CSM
2021/11/09 13:20:16
Subject: How often do you concede? Has it changed by edition?
AngryAngel80 wrote: I have never conceded even a very one sided game, I will fight every moment till the bitter end, ask for no mercy and give none. I'm not stuck in that game with them, they are stuck in it with me. I'm intensely stubborn and quit is not a thing I will purposely do, regardless of if I can win or not in the end. Fighting through a losing battle is in itself a lesson to be learned.
Who I am playing against can quit if they wish to, I will not however.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I tend to concede when the game won't be fun anymore.
If the remaining turns of narrative are "huddled survivors are systematically hunted down and butchered" there's no reason to take the time to play that out - I can easily write that outcome down.
Those are some of the funniest outcomes when they try their hardest and can't kill them all and that brave last few guardsmen live then just remind the opponent that " Cadia Stands ! ". I've actually had one guy get pissed I didn't accept my shame for being crushed most of the game just because I still had some epic moments. Tough times can make strong memories but I can see where not everyone wants to do that as well.
God, this post with the joker avatar and the name "Angry Angel" is just the fuel I needed to get through my morning, thank you. Absolute artwork.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
- 10,000 pts CSM 
