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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Mezmorki wrote:

If the intent is to reduce lethality, the AP tweak applies a change to every army that goes in the same direction- ie everyone has a chance for a better save.


Well, except orks. And it proportionally helps TEQ and MEQ vastly more than GEQ.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






That is true.

Although given the abundance of AP5 weaponry, GEQ units now get a save at least (6+) compared to most often getting nothing.

I've contemplated making a chart or some other scheme for it so that if the shot penetrates exactly the armor, it's a -1. And if the shot is an AP 2 or 3 as well it applies another -1.

In this way, AP3 vs 3+ yields a 5+ save and AP2 vs 2+ goes to a 4+ save. Feels a little better in terms of relative improvement.

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think I've got chart that works fairly well against existing initiative values and BS /WS now:

Roll to hit
When making an attack, the dice score needed is as follows:

4+
BS>I 3+
If BS is more than 2x target I, 2+
If I is twice attackers BS, 5+

I think that should work out fairly well while still giving a spread.

Will work for WS as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/06 02:50:35


   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Random thoughts on your scheme:

(1) High BS units (characters in particular) with special ranged weaponry will probably loose effectiveness. Previously they hit everything on a 2+, and would now hit on a 3+ for most things, and even a 4+ at times.

(2) Initiative 2 units get hit fairly hard. Orks, Tau and Necrons being the major cases. Most units with guns have at least BS3, which means they hit on a 3+ Vs Init 2. BS4 versus Init 2 is 3+ and is no different.

(3) Initiative 5 units (eldar, many Tyranids), gain a more limited benefit from this change. I guess BS4 & 5 units would hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+ & 2+. Seems weird that marines would hit eldar worse now (for example) but that BS3 units would remain just as effective as they are currently (4+).

Results in sort of a strange set of changes.

I wonder about just fixed modifiers for high initiative. Like if the targets Init is 5 or more, you get a -1 to hit, Init 7+ is a -2 to hit, etc. Models with a BS2 or BS1 always still hit on a 5+ or 6+ respectively.

It's hard not to have that just be a straight buff to high Init armies, and I'm not sure they really need the buff?

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mezmorki wrote:
Random thoughts on your scheme:

(1) High BS units (characters in particular) with special ranged weaponry will probably loose effectiveness. Previously they hit everything on a 2+, and would now hit on a 3+ for most things, and even a 4+ at times.

(2) Initiative 2 units get hit fairly hard. Orks, Tau and Necrons being the major cases. Most units with guns have at least BS3, which means they hit on a 3+ Vs Init 2. BS4 versus Init 2 is 3+ and is no different.

(3) Initiative 5 units (eldar, many Tyranids), gain a more limited benefit from this change. I guess BS4 & 5 units would hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+ & 2+. Seems weird that marines would hit eldar worse now (for example) but that BS3 units would remain just as effective as they are currently (4+).

Results in sort of a strange set of changes.

I wonder about just fixed modifiers for high initiative. Like if the targets Init is 5 or more, you get a -1 to hit, Init 7+ is a -2 to hit, etc. Models with a BS2 or BS1 always still hit on a 5+ or 6+ respectively.

It's hard not to have that just be a straight buff to high Init armies, and I'm not sure they really need the buff?



The objective here isn't to copy the existing scheme, otherwise I wouldn't have changed it to begin with. Part of the point was to boost some areas, like higher initiative units gaining limited protection from their reflexes.

Reducing the amount of 2+s to hit is imo a good thing, especially when they're attached to special weapons like fusion pistols and plasma pistols.

It puts shooting and melee on the same footing in terms of hits - it never made sense that you could hit someone from 100 metres away on a 2+, but never an enemy in your face better than 3+.


So, as the objective is to create a new to hit paradigm using WS/BS vs I, that doesn't create egregious issues, it does the job I want it to.


I'm trying to think of BS3 armies that aren't guard or genestealer cults. I don't think there would be a huge issue with them getting slightly better at shooting. If the slight changes to who hits at what value have much of an impact, then points tweaks are not difficult.




   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






^Tau are/were BS3. At least the Fire Warriors were. I think the Crisis suits were too, but they might have had equipment to buff it.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
^Tau are/were BS3. At least the Fire Warriors were. I think the Crisis suits were too, but they might have had equipment to buff it.



You're right, fire warriors and kroot were bs3. Markerlights tended to make that temporary though.

Anything not a fire warrior was bs4 or more though.


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ok, I've updated to 1.2 with additional material and tweaks to the previous version in Blue.

I've changed Melee to work like this:

Bonus attacks for charging are resolved before any other
All other attacks are resolved simultaneously

A lot of shooting and movement effects that prevented assaults previously now prevent charge bonuses, so it makes an assault less powerful to do without those first strikes. Also you can charge out of a vehicle, but it's a 1D6" charge, making it less certain.


 Filename 40k 37th Edition 1.2.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description
 File size 361 Kbytes


   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Kinda random, but I made a chart showing the BS vs Init based on your post above.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qafsZ3dKC5t2So0aukFDx_fPc6pAuaQGxLpMFXkPMsA/edit?usp=sharing

Trying to wrap my head around the implications of this.

BS 2 units get a buff when shooting Init 2/3 units.

BS 3 units get a buff vs. Init 2, and are penalized shooting Init 6+ units (admittedly kind of rare situation).

BS4+ all suffer a reduction in shooting. BS4 vs imitative 4+ all hit on a 4+ now. And and BS5/6 only hit on a 2+ versus init 2.

The lethality of shooting for lower BS vs lower Init INCREASES, which is probably the situation where you specificaly don't want it to increase. Tau/Guard/Ork/Tyranid shooting other Tau/Guard/Ork hit more often.

Conversely, BS4 units take a hit shooting Init 4 or more units. Not sure if that's really what you want? BS5+ units loose a lot of their reliability now.

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







If you were actually going to implement the BS v. Init suggestion you'd have to go back and re-stat a lot of things to account for the fact that low I reduces your durability at range as well as in melee.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Hellebore wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Tau are/were BS3. At least the Fire Warriors were. I think the Crisis suits were too, but they might have had equipment to buff it.



You're right, fire warriors and kroot were bs3. Markerlights tended to make that temporary though.

Anything not a fire warrior was bs4 or more though.
Come to think of it, weren't Guardians and Eldar Vehicles BS3 up until. . . 6th? (I only have the 2nd through 4th books from back then)

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Insectum7 wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Tau are/were BS3. At least the Fire Warriors were. I think the Crisis suits were too, but they might have had equipment to buff it.



You're right, fire warriors and kroot were bs3. Markerlights tended to make that temporary though.

Anything not a fire warrior was bs4 or more though.
Come to think of it, weren't Guardians and Eldar Vehicles BS3 up until. . . 6th? (I only have the 2nd through 4th books from back then)


2nd ed eldar vehicles (and most really) had targeters which made them BS4. The 4th ed codex had WS/BS3 guardians, and they decided to standardise eldar profiles to the 4/4/5 one used by dark eldar from 6th onwards.



AnomanderRake wrote:If you were actually going to implement the BS v. Init suggestion you'd have to go back and re-stat a lot of things to account for the fact that low I reduces your durability at range as well as in melee.


Mezmorki wrote:Kinda random, but I made a chart showing the BS vs Init based on your post above.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qafsZ3dKC5t2So0aukFDx_fPc6pAuaQGxLpMFXkPMsA/edit?usp=sharing

Trying to wrap my head around the implications of this.

BS 2 units get a buff when shooting Init 2/3 units.

BS 3 units get a buff vs. Init 2, and are penalized shooting Init 6+ units (admittedly kind of rare situation).

BS4+ all suffer a reduction in shooting. BS4 vs imitative 4+ all hit on a 4+ now. And and BS5/6 only hit on a 2+ versus init 2.

The lethality of shooting for lower BS vs lower Init INCREASES, which is probably the situation where you specificaly don't want it to increase. Tau/Guard/Ork/Tyranid shooting other Tau/Guard/Ork hit more often.

Conversely, BS4 units take a hit shooting Init 4 or more units. Not sure if that's really what you want? BS5+ units loose a lot of their reliability now.



I'm not sure I've made myself clear previously - what you see as a problem are features for me. I WANT BS effectiveness to change based on the target, in exactly the same way WS changed in effectiveness pre 8th.

I could just as easily apply the same logic to the 3-5 WS table and say 'well you'll need to restat things and you really don't want Low WS armies hitting low WS armies easier, or make it harder for marines to hit marines in melee right?'

And your answer for that, is my answer for BS. I want marines to challenge each other, I want eldar and tyranids to use their speed to make them harder to hit, without extra layers of rules on top, I want imperial guard to be able to use their crappy lasguns more effectively against the slower but more advanced tau, or the marauding orks who annihilate them in melee.

These are all features that make the armies work against each other in more dynamic and interesting ways, forcing new tactics and army list considerations.


The only reason I was tweaking the BS/WS vs I table was to ensure it represented these effects in the way I was intending.






   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Simplest way to handle it is just to make vehicles by default count as I3. Setting something to I3 doesnt change its defenses from the default game - a BS3 model hits I3 on 4s, BS4 on 3s, BS2 on 5s etc.

Outside of Orks needing some kind of help, after a review of a few different fights, things seem *relatively* even across the board. One may consider a boost for necrons as well, either a point of T or a little points discount.


Don't forget Tau having I2 as well. Suddenly they're now getting shot at even easier as well.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 Mezmorki wrote:
Yeah, I really prefer the the older AP system compared to a save system.

People claim to love the AP modifier system (i.e. 9th edition) but then complain about the lethality of the game! When so many weapons have a -1 or -2 to your armor save, it's a huge blow to the value of armor, and hits heavily armored units like marines even more. Which is probably why they started giving them all 2 wounds, as you point out.


(so this is my first post here on the site)

May I suggest something that i thought of last edition that I'm surprised i haven't seen anyone else think of, or at least voice? Why not have armor values outside of the normal range of 2+ - 6+? A 1 is always a failure anyways so keeping the AP modifier from 8th (i assume 9th has it too since I see people talking about it but haven't looked myself) you keep the lethality of some weapons, especially anti tank weapons, while still having a variable system. Just a thought, as I dont know how it would be worded or conveyed in rules but it could allow terminators to have something like 10 points of armor while a primaris marine could have 7 and a standard marine could have 6. If the term was hit by something with only -1 AP it would still be better than 2+ but a 1 is always a fail so it would only convey to a 2+. Just my 2 cents.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Jarms48 wrote:
Simplest way to handle it is just to make vehicles by default count as I3. Setting something to I3 doesnt change its defenses from the default game - a BS3 model hits I3 on 4s, BS4 on 3s, BS2 on 5s etc.

Outside of Orks needing some kind of help, after a review of a few different fights, things seem *relatively* even across the board. One may consider a boost for necrons as well, either a point of T or a little points discount.


Don't forget Tau having I2 as well. Suddenly they're now getting shot at even easier as well.


Using the table I've got, the only change will be that bs3 armies will hit i2 on 3+ rather than 4+. Which given that it's only guard and Tau this affects it's not really a big issue.




Mr.Night wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:
Yeah, I really prefer the the older AP system compared to a save system.

People claim to love the AP modifier system (i.e. 9th edition) but then complain about the lethality of the game! When so many weapons have a -1 or -2 to your armor save, it's a huge blow to the value of armor, and hits heavily armored units like marines even more. Which is probably why they started giving them all 2 wounds, as you point out.


(so this is my first post here on the site)

May I suggest something that i thought of last edition that I'm surprised i haven't seen anyone else think of, or at least voice? Why not have armor values outside of the normal range of 2+ - 6+? A 1 is always a failure anyways so keeping the AP modifier from 8th (i assume 9th has it too since I see people talking about it but haven't looked myself) you keep the lethality of some weapons, especially anti tank weapons, while still having a variable system. Just a thought, as I dont know how it would be worded or conveyed in rules but it could allow terminators to have something like 10 points of armor while a primaris marine could have 7 and a standard marine could have 6. If the term was hit by something with only -1 AP it would still be better than 2+ but a 1 is always a fail so it would only convey to a 2+. Just my 2 cents.


I've got 7+ succeeding on a 6+ followed by a 4+.

1+ saves definitely could exist, as you described.

I've been thinking about ap0 on the largest destroyer Titan weapons.




I've also realised I didn't put an updated armour value list in the doc now it's functions like toughness.

Until the update I'll leave this here:

AV == T
10 == 6
11 == 7
12 == 8
13 == 9
14 == 10






   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




To hit roll for range weapons should get minus for speed and distance of the target.

Initiative instead should be a factor in hth combat.

All Imo.
   
 
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