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Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






mrFickle wrote:
Imagine if the put 40K through the end time and retired all of the players (customers) models and made you buy all new ones?

That's not what happened with AoS. Every single model got rules through the Compendiums upon release and they continue to have rules in Legends. The majority of AoS armies are made up of models from WHFB and by my count only 5 armies don't have models that were released prior to AoS.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I had a DW and RW army i loved, but the writting is on the wall, im never getting a new release or new lore about terminators or raven wing bike squads that are not primaris. so

You mean the very recent Ravenwing and Deathwing units that don't need to be replaced at all outside of one Finecast character? RW & DW also gained unit flexibility in their latest rules update so now you aren't required to run a Command Squad if you just want an Ancient or Apothecary.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






That was not a new release for terminators or raven wing, we just got to split out the command squad, and i dont expect to ever see lore or more story for them. Its just a matter of time for the old marines to just be phased out into legends.

Which new Ravenwing deathwing models?
The blade guard primaris that everyone got? IM talking terminators the whole shtick of the deathwing.


To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Gert must get terrible back pain, shouldering all of these burdens for GW...
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Backspacehacker wrote:
That was not a new release for terminators or raven wing, we just got to split out the command squad, and i dont expect to ever see lore or more story for them. Its just a matter of time for the old marines to just be phased out into legends.

Which new Ravenwing deathwing models?
The blade guard primaris that everyone got? IM talking terminators the whole shtick of the deathwing.

The DW and RW models aren't even a decade old and are still very good models. You don't need new Terminators and Bikes every couple of years.
Genuine question though, what exactly do you mean by "new lore"?


 Lord Damocles wrote:
Gert must get terrible back pain, shouldering all of these burdens for GW...

I'm just a general opponent of misinformation which is what a solid 50% of the complaints against GW are. Maybe if people were better informed then I wouldn't be making posts about it.
Do you have anything else to add or did you just come here to be rude?
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






By new lore i mean, im never going to get any more stories involving them.

Its basically anything marine related is going to end up being primaris stuff and not terminator deathwing lore.

Effectively those stories are going to be squatted.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Literally, the first Dark Angel novel released in 8th had the Deathwing in it and it's not even true that every single recent Marine novel is all about the Primaris. GW also regularly re-releases older novels so that bit about those books being "squatted" also isn't true.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 17:53:31


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Gert wrote:
Literally, the first Dark Angel novel released in 8th had the Deathwing in it and it's not even true that every single recent Marine novel is all about the Primaris. GW also regularly re-releases older novels so that bit about those books being "squatted" also isn't true.


Other than Castellan Crowe, and I suppose that Black Templars Castellan Sort of counts, What new normal-release Space Marine miniaures have been firstborn rather than Primaris? What 40k novels have centered on them? Maybe I'm just missing stuff but i think the point being made is that, if there is anything new, it'll nearly always be Primaris now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 18:40:15


 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Other than Castellan Crowe, and I suppose that Black Templars Castellan Sort of counts, What new normal-release Space Marine miniaures have been firstborn rather than Primaris? What 40k novels have centered on them? Maybe I'm just missing stuff but i think the point being made is that, if there is anything new, it'll nearly always be Primaris now.

Outside of Space Marine Heroes, not a lot but that wasn't what I was referring to.
As for novels with Firstborn main characters:
Spoiler:
Avenging Son (1st in Dawn of Fire)
The Wolftime (3rd book in Dawn of Fire)
Urdesh: Serpent and the Saint
Darkness in the Blood
Knights of Macragge
Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work

I'm not denying that Primaris are objectively receiving the limelight here, I'm only arguing that the statement about Firstborn not receiving new stories is flat out not true. But GW is also doing a lot better with regards to books from other perspectives like Guard, SoB, and Xenos (gasp!).
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




We've essentially got the literary equivalent of the Blackadder scenario. Every day scores of brave lads go out and sacrifice themselves and get blown to bits, just so the major general in the rear can move his drink cabinet 2" closer to Berlin.

We will never see (In my opinion) any major "update" to the lore of 40k, because it would require real investment. Look, Cawl revealed he'd been keeping entire LEGIONS of Astartes 2.0, with fresh Terminatoresque plate, and loads of new tanks and gear, secret. He gives them to Bobby, who promptly runs off and starts a Full on Crusade. Literally nothing changed in that time frame. The Tyranids are still incalculable, the Chaos legions are still un-stoppable, and the Orks are STILL growing stronger. All they did was pour more gas in the tank, to keep it running another 40k years. And to keep the masses buying their plastic for another 2-4 "seasons"
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Exactly, GW will write the most ridiculous stuff into the setting rather than end it and re start it.

There is only one thing that could cause the universe of 40K to implode forcing the survivors to live on different astral plains……. 40K stops making profit
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Literally, the first Dark Angel novel released in 8th had the Deathwing in it and it's not even true that every single recent Marine novel is all about the Primaris. GW also regularly re-releases older novels so that bit about those books being "squatted" also isn't true.


Other than Castellan Crowe, and I suppose that Black Templars Castellan Sort of counts, What new normal-release Space Marine miniaures have been firstborn rather than Primaris? What 40k novels have centered on them? Maybe I'm just missing stuff but i think the point being made is that, if there is anything new, it'll nearly always be Primaris now.


At some point, when all the regular SM roster have been replaced by primaris counterparts, GW will launch chapter focussed primaris releases, no doubt about that. Specific primaris Dark angels (or Blood angels or Space wolves) will happen, it's just a matter of time.

And most of the current firstborn kits aren't even particularly old. How old are eldar guardians?

About the lore, how many new stories involving gen cult, harlequins, drukhari, tau or orks? Or even about chapter locked units like wulfen, njal or bjorn?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/12 09:01:40


 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





As a Space Wolves fan, I can answer that second question: Ashes of Prospero.

Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better.

-Roboute Guilliman
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 RaptorusRex wrote:
As a Space Wolves fan, I can answer that second question: Ashes of Prospero.


So the answer is... One.

 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





 Blackie wrote:
 RaptorusRex wrote:
As a Space Wolves fan, I can answer that second question: Ashes of Prospero.


So the answer is... One.


No, it's one that came to mind.

Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better.

-Roboute Guilliman
 
   
Made in us
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

Funny part is that 40K used to be the sub game that was a joke take on the real powerhouse of the company that was WHFBs.

one supplanted the other in sales and popularity.

My personal feeling is that the current staff who run GW do not understand their own universe or story anymore as all the old team that created the setting have moved on in one way or another.

No matter what part of the lore you like the game has over 20+ years of lore and model kits that are available in the used market. with a thriving market for old school collectors, you can play any time period you like. the old campaign books are still around if you feel like fighting the third or second war for Armageddon, dealing with the 12th black crusade, defending Rynn's world etc.... and the host of players who still play every edition from 2nd-8th you can make 40K into whatever game you want it to be with a group of like minded players.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





What started out as a joke just gave me a crazy idea.

Battlezone Andromeda.

The Milky Way is starting to feel a little crowded these days...so why not?
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Other than Castellan Crowe, and I suppose that Black Templars Castellan Sort of counts, What new normal-release Space Marine miniaures have been firstborn rather than Primaris?

Well, if you ignore SM heroes series I, SM heroes series II plus SM alt termie librarian/chaplain/captain (oh look, the Deathwing complain was basically completely wrong), Crowe, Castellan, entire FW output including recent plastic models, re-release of two starters with squat SM, a few made to orders, so like 50-60 models just in last 3-4 years, there was basically nothing. Oh wait

 Dekskull wrote:
What started out as a joke just gave me a crazy idea.

Battlezone Andromeda.

The Milky Way is starting to feel a little crowded these days...so why not?

Well, Milky Way has a few satellite dwarf galaxies, I wouldn't say no to say rogue trader or admech expedition there to start a new colony. You'd have a blank slate for new races, DAoT humans, or ork/eldar/tyranid offshoots different than the MW ones. Could be a nice supplement, yeah.

 Blackie wrote:
How old are eldar guardians?

You either live in a cave or picked dumbest possible unit to complain about lack of new models
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Irbis wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Other than Castellan Crowe, and I suppose that Black Templars Castellan Sort of counts, What new normal-release Space Marine miniaures have been firstborn rather than Primaris?

Well, if you ignore SM heroes series I, SM heroes series II plus SM alt termie librarian/chaplain/captain (oh look, the Deathwing complain was basically completely wrong), Crowe, Castellan, entire FW output including recent plastic models, re-release of two starters with squat SM, a few made to orders, so like 50-60 models just in last 3-4 years, there was basically nothing. Oh wait


I said normal releases. As in, typical GW releases available long-term as ordinary things intended for common use rather than some one-off special release. The SM heroes series is a more niche set of collectables, the librarian/chaplain/captain were special limited releases (Unless i've just missed the ones you mean?), FW output is Horus Heresy so obviously that's not Primaris and re-releasing old miniatures doesn't address the issue of new stuff being Primaris.

The only two there that are new, ordinary miniature releases that have been Firstborn Marines are Crowe and the Castellan. The rest have been special/limited releases and not part of GWs main product line, they don't counter the problem when they're relegated to something that's not released as a standard thing like all the rest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/16 16:06:49


 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I said normal releases. As in, typical GW releases available long-term as ordinary things intended for common use rather than some one-off special release. The SM heroes series is a more niche set of collectables, the librarian/chaplain/captain were special limited releases (Unless i've just missed the ones you mean?), FW output is Horus Heresy so obviously that's not Primaris and re-releasing old miniatures doesn't address the issue of new stuff being Primaris.

The only two there that are new, ordinary miniature releases that have been Firstborn Marines are Crowe and the Castellan. The rest have been special/limited releases and not part of GWs main product line, they don't counter the problem when they're relegated to something that's not released as a standard thing like all the rest.

Can I ask, why does there need to be more Firstborn releases? The vast majority of the Firstborn range is either timeless (Rhino chassis vehicles) or still recent enough that the kits don't need updating. The only issues I can see are Finecast Named Characters and the Techmarine models. Every single unit in the Codex is plastic barring those exceptions and many were released not long ago, in fact, the core units of a Firstborn army (Tacticals, Devastators, and Assault Marines) were all redone during 7th Edition.
I just don't see how people can look at one of the most up to date armies and decide that because the new releases aren't Space Marine subtype X instead of Y, that means that subtype X is getting removed despite subtype X having very recent releases and consistent presence in novel publications. I mean I know it's ignorance, either deliberate or unintended, but still.
To go specifically to the Deathwing and Ravenwing brought up earlier, what do they even need? You have HQ's, Named Characters, the basic units for the armies, and extra units to bulk out the force. The models are even recent and objectively do not need updating. A DW/RW player has literally everything they could possibly need but somehow these subfactions still need releases. Why?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/17 11:57:06


 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Irbis wrote:

You either live in a cave or picked dumbest possible unit to complain about lack of new models


Who talked about lack of new models? I simply asked how old are the current guardians. I'm very well aware that they're about to get a new box, but it's still an update after 20+ years so it's a pretty solid example, my friend. That was in response to someone considering some 10ish years old firstborn models as very old ones and with lack of support, while the faction they belong to actually got tons of new stuff in the last few years, in the form of primaris releases. And I don't think Dark Angels players will have to wait 20+ years for new Deathwing or Ravenwing kits since the release of the current models.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


I said normal releases. As in, typical GW releases available long-term as ordinary things intended for common use rather than some one-off special release. The SM heroes series is a more niche set of collectables,


Yup, they were such a niche product. Except that time that they weren't because they were available as mass market releases through board games that were available for several years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 11:23:43


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Lincoln, UK

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

All of it impeccably copyrightable.

And especially for a Fantasy game, copyright is important.



This keeps getting said, but it really isn't how copyright works. It doesn't matter how distinct the theming or identity of a faction is, whether it's Steampunk fantasy Pirate Dwarves or Historical French Medieval Cavalry, you can't copyright ideas, themes, styles etc and only the design of the actual miniature itself is what's protected. Changing the miniatures to be more uniquely themed doesn't make them any more or any less copyrightable.


It's subtler than simple copyright, it's a distinct "design space" that they can exploit without competition, and so charge what they like.

They're putting a gap between themselves and other companies with the sheer size of their newer ranges. Look at the complex 3D poses and skinniness of many newer models too - shapes that other companies can't make (or recast) easily in metal or resin, and may lack the expertise to sculpt in plastic.

It becomes harder to compare like for like with other companies' product, so they avoid a price war. That may lose them sales of, say, generic fantasy orcs, but it gives them complete control of the sale of "skinny bird demons" or "lanky robotic rust-stalking assassins". It's the job of the sales and marketing people to convince you those are the models you want, or indeed need if you want to play GW games.

It's also another reason why ranges like Astra Militarum are in such a rut. Other companies cover that space just as well if not better, there's a significant overlap with historical model kits, and others are often cheaper - especially companies working in plastic or selling resin bits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 13:11:30


 
   
 
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