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brainpsyk wrote:
Then we can just scale the whole Orders system down to just FRFSRF and MMM. If you're advancing you MMM, if you're not advancing then you do FRFSRF. Then the problem is FRFSRF really is underpowered for 9th, because FRFSRF brings infantry output up to where it should be without FRFSRF.

I could imagine GW maybe going back to different orders for Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders. Make FRFSRF and MMM Company Commander orders, then make Platoon Commanders the ones to give out things like Take Aim and Bring it Down. Make them stackable as well, which would be nice.

Personally, I'd like to get away from just HQs giving orders. I think that's a holdover from the static gunline of 8th edition. It limits the availability of orders (which we need more of), in both quantity and unit placement.

Orders need to be brought down to the platoon level, as orders are dependent on squad actions. A HQ on the left flank wouldn't be shouting to a squad on the right flank to MMM!, The HQ tells the Lt. "go take that objective". The Lt then tells a squad MMM!, while telling the rest of the platoon BID/TA/etc. You could make orders "sticky", meaning once an order is given, it stays in effect turn over turn until changed.

If a HQ is near a unit, then it should provide an aura buff. That can be an additional order, or the usual RR1s to Hit (HQ) or Wound (Lts) and/or a Ld buff.

So if you take an infantry platoon, then the Lt provides the orders and a 6" RR1s to wound aura. A LRBT squadron, if in 6" of their Platoon commander, gets RR1s to wound. Then a TC could give an additional order or a RR1s to hit aura via WLT. (this is why I give TCs LOS! when near a LRBT squadron).

Then TCs could be limited to 1 per LRBT platoon (not just 1 per detachment), we'd have A - more orders and B - reasons to take both LRBTs and TCs and C - reasons to keep them together. This would also enable hellhound/sentinel/hydra squadrons to have the sorely needed orders as well.

You guys are forgetting Scions - FRFSRF, Get Back in The Fight and Elimination Protocols (and to a lesser extent - Take Aim for plasma squads), are the orders that allow Scions to actually function.

Getting rid of these orders would make them unplayable. (On that note it's worth mentioning that if you want a more interactive Guard army then an allied Patrol/Battalion of Scions will massively help you achieve that).

Aside from MMM for it's tactical application, FRFSRF and Get Back in The Fight are two of the most powerful infantry orders guard have. The opponent just munched through your front line and consolidated into your second line? Good job you have GBITF!

We haven't forgotten about FRFSRF, I just believe we should drop FRFSRF and EPS, and bring the guards units up to a baseline function without orders. Then we add on doctrines and orders to provide the extra oomph and unique army flavor.

MMM as it is today is a crutch that we have to lean on heavily to play the game, as it allows us to play cagey and hide the first couple turns, while shooting a unit across the board to steal an objective. But that unit a - does nothing but screen until we MMM it, and then b - it just dies. FRFSRF only affects lasguns, and even with that order there's no point in even shooting the lasguns to pluck 1W of an intercessor. HSLas are a little better, only needing 5 models to pluck that 1W (2 with FRFSRF), but either way that's still 1 model killed in exchange for a whole squad.

GBITF is rarely useful for shooting because it means we can shoot lasguns, and it eats one of our very few orders since it doesn't chain. If the guard squads actually were worth shooting, then GBITF would be worth something. It's worth it for scions, if there is a character nearby with the order to spare, or if it allowed the unit that fell back to perform an action (which it doesn't).

So the orders are powerful, but the units the orders are being applied to are not. So until we fix the units, orders don't do much.