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chaos0xomega wrote:
Missile launchers suffer from being "jack of all trades, master of none".

I don't think that's it. It's more like "jack of one trade, master of none". If missile launchers were genuinely decent against all targets they'd be fine, taking a slight downgrade on the anti-tank profile vs. a lascannon would be justified by having the frag profile. The problem is that in 9th edition's math frag missiles don't work. Once you account for all the RNG failure points you're left with a weapon that is barely better than a single shot that always wounds on a 2+ with good AP, especially in a game where the most common infantry profile is W2 or better and DD6 is a decisive advantage over D1. Against marines a krak missile will do more damage than a frag missile, so you're starting to push into edge case situations before frag has any advantage at all, no matter how slight.

Frag would be more useful if large horde units were viable and common.

But it is never going to be useful on planet Space Marine and other MSU elite infantry.

 Tyran wrote:
Frag would be more useful if large horde units were viable and common.

I doubt it. A space marine frag missile against a 10-man GEQ squad does 1.19 damage, a krak missile (or lascannon) does 0.55 damage. That's a pretty underwhelming advantage even against the best possible frag target and worst possible krak target. And just for fun, a plasma cannon does 1.67 damage against those same GEQs while having vastly better performance against elite infantry.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Frag would be more useful if large horde units were viable and common.

I doubt it. A space marine frag missile against a 10-man GEQ squad does 1.19 damage, a krak missile (or lascannon) does 0.55 damage. That's a pretty underwhelming advantage even against the best possible frag target and worst possible krak target. And just for fun, a plasma cannon does 1.67 damage against those same GEQs while having vastly better performance against elite infantry.

Tbf, he did say "large horde units." Against an 11-man GEQ squad, the frag missile does ~1.78 unsaved wounds, so it's roughly keeping pace with the plasma cannon against the frag's preferred target. But then against a rhino, the plasma cannon (overcharged) will do something like 1.489 (ignoring AoC) damage while the krak missile's ~ 1.037 damage. So the plasma cannon does come out ahead mostly due to the krak missile's damage stat. If you made the Damage on the krak missile d6+2, the damage inflicted goes up to ~1.628, which is pretty close to the plasma cannon and less susceptible to rules that reduce Damage by 1. That would also put the krak missile pretty close to the new lascannon's performance against T7 targets (while still leaving the lascannon with the edge in terms of Strength and AP).

Although ultimately, two generalist weapons like the PC and the ML are going to end up with a winner and a loser unless you add in some other factor to give each its own niche.

R&H Missile Launcher HWS, been testing them out. Super fun.
The ability to have the two different profiles on the fly really makes them worth it.

 Blndmage wrote:
R&H Missile Launcher HWS, been testing them out. Super fun.
The ability to have the two different profiles on the fly really makes them worth it.

Fun, until you realize that only one of those profiles does anything and it does everything worse than a lascannon. It's the same problem the grenade launcher has, missile launchers and grenade launchers have two profiles but lascannons and plasma guns are the versatile weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Against an 11-man GEQ squad, the frag missile does ~1.78 unsaved wounds, so it's roughly keeping pace with the plasma cannon against the frag's preferred target.

Yeah, and that's exactly the problem. Against one of the rarest targets in the game, the perfect target for the frag missile, the absolute best it can do is just very slightly better than the generalist weapon.

If you made the Damage on the krak missile d6+2, the damage inflicted goes up to ~1.628, which is pretty close to the plasma cannon and less susceptible to rules that reduce Damage by 1. That would also put the krak missile pretty close to the new lascannon's performance against T7 targets (while still leaving the lascannon with the edge in terms of Strength and AP).

IMO I'd go the other way. Instead of buffing the ML against tanks and elites buff frag missiles to actually be useful. Give them AP -1 or 2D6 shots or whatever, so they're a meaningful option against infantry targets instead of just barely better than a krak missile. Then you have lascannons for killing tanks effectively, plasma cannons for killing tanks and elites reasonably well, and missile launchers for anti-horde with the option to take a decent anti-tank shot if needed.

IMO I'd go the other way. Instead of buffing the ML against tanks and elites buff frag missiles to actually be useful. Give them AP -1 or 2D6 shots or whatever, so they're a meaningful option against infantry targets instead of just barely better than a krak missile. Then you have lascannons for killing tanks effectively, plasma cannons for killing tanks and elites reasonably well, and missile launchers for anti-horde with the option to take a decent anti-tank shot if needed.

That seems reasonable.

Yeah, and that's exactly the problem. Against one of the rarest targets in the game, the perfect target for the frag missile, the absolute best it can do is just very slightly better than the generalist weapon.

I think the issue here is that they're both the generalist weapon. One just does it with a single profile while the other does it with multiple profiles. I still agree with you; just pointing out that the point of the ML isn't for it to be a dedicated anti-horde weapon but to be a generalist weapon that's pretty good against hordes and pretty good against tanks without being the best against either.

why change the missle launcher it flexible and thats its job, you can use it agains armour and infantrie. Shure a lascannon is beter against a vehicle but not against infantrie and a plasma cannon is better against infantrie but not against vehicles and you have a change to cook on off your own men.

 skeleton wrote:
why change the missle launcher it flexible and thats its job, you can use it agains armour and infantrie. Shure a lascannon is beter against a vehicle but not against infantrie and a plasma cannon is better against infantrie but not against vehicles and you have a change to cook on off your own men.

A frag missile, average 3.5 shots, with BS4+, only kills 0.78 Guardsmen. If you change that to BS3+ it only kills 1.04 Guardsmen. It’s useless verse infantry.

Plasma is far better as an all rounder.

I dunno, I don't think you can make frag missiles better without making mortars useless, and I think theres enough traumatized people still out there who don't want to see mortars made better just so that frag missiles can be useful.

Mortars are super cheap and ignore LoS. There's a niche case for those things.

 skeleton wrote:
why change the missle launcher it flexible and thats its job, you can use it agains armour and infantrie. Shure a lascannon is beter against a vehicle but not against infantrie and a plasma cannon is better against infantrie but not against vehicles and you have a change to cook on off your own men.

Because "flexible" and "has two profiles" are not the same thing. The missile launcher has two profiles, the plasma cannon is good against a wide range of targets. And the plasma cannon is better against vehicles, D3 shots at S8/AP-3/D2 is better than a single shot at S8/AP-2/DD6.

As for killing your own models, who cares. Elite armies with plasma tend to have easy access to re-roll 1s, cannon fodder with plasma dies anyway so it doesn't matter if you roll a 1.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I dunno, I don't think you can make frag missiles better without making mortars useless, and I think theres enough traumatized people still out there who don't want to see mortars made better just so that frag missiles can be useful.

Mortars are the best HWS choice right now. They’re the most efficient nLoS weapon they have.

I'd like to go on record as advocating the removal of useless weapons like the ML. It serves no true purpose when Plasma rifles can be spammed (Hellblasters) or Melta/HBs can be spammed which do the job far better in every aspect. The best thing about primaris is that they seemingly deleted a lot of bloat. Grav/MLs/LCs. Not to mention the rediculousness of the melee weapon list.

I'd love for them to go further and do a house cleaning like this for Guard.

It's hard to say Primaris reduces bloat when they add three versions (Assault, Rapid Fire, and Heavy) of nearly every infantry weapon they do add

But the Missile Launcher would be better if they improved the Frag Missile (AP -1 maybe) and managed the rules and unit points values to encourage those larger units that Blast is effective against.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd like to go on record as advocating the removal of useless weapons like the ML. It serves no true purpose when Plasma rifles can be spammed (Hellblasters) or Melta/HBs can be spammed which do the job far better in every aspect. The best thing about primaris is that they seemingly deleted a lot of bloat. Grav/MLs/LCs. Not to mention the rediculousness of the melee weapon list.

I'd love for them to go further and do a house cleaning like this for Guard.

To an extent I agree. ML models can just use the Lascannon profile and have lost nothing, as the Frag was THAT bad against infantry.

Frag missile +1 bs and 2d3 shots

Range weapon that explode should be easier to hit!!!!

This gives missiles the niche of easier to hit but horrible armor penetration and low strength.

Also Essentially making it a heavy weapon that is able to move and fire without BS penalty… (alternatively just make krak and frag missiles able to move and fire without penalty)

Since most troop infantry want to move and claim objectives this encourages missile launchers for mobile units.

If instead of trying to up the damage they gave it the ability to "ignores cover" or something in Frag mode, I could see it being slightly less worthless...but then I don't like the idea of every like-style weapon being granted ignores cover....

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If instead of trying to up the damage they gave it the ability to "ignores cover" or something in Frag mode, I could see it being slightly less worthless...but then I don't like the idea of every like-style weapon being granted ignores cover....

Well, there has to be some difference between samey weapons though. Autocannon, Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon, Lascannon... aren't that different in stats and points costs. Different abilties might be the way to properly differentiate them.

I mean just allow missile launchers to move and fire without penalty.
No increase in damage just allows infantry to score objectives like they are meant to do.

I mean it’s you think of all the Less sophisticated shoulder mounted surface to air missile systems being used by mobile infantry today.

The more advanced systems like javelins take longer but shoot further and more accurately. But for the generic SAM like missile launcher infantry should be able to move pop up from cover and fire.

Again, and I want to stress this, Space Marines aren't the only ones who use ML-like weapons. Do we give the same type of buffs to Ork Rokkits or Chaos Space Marines? No? Then it's bloat for the bloat god to the most bloated faction in the history of 40k. Either scrap it (My hope) or leave it as is.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, and I want to stress this, Space Marines aren't the only ones who use ML-like weapons. Do we give the same type of buffs to Ork Rokkits or Chaos Space Marines? No? Then it's bloat for the bloat god to the most bloated faction in the history of 40k. Either scrap it (My hope) or leave it as is.

Ork Rokkits aren't exactly the same weapon, but I don't think anyone would disagree they need their own buff.

I mean last Ed ork rokkits literally could move and fire without penalty and then Gw ruined them and tankbustas by making them hvy and unable to move and fire.


Guard infantry would also benefit from this change as would space marines. I wouldn’t carry this change over to tau but it probably wouldn’t matter much there anyway.

gungo wrote:
I mean last Ed ork rokkits literally could move and fire without penalty and then Gw ruined them and tankbustas by making them hvy and unable to move and fire.

That was definitely an odd move since, as far as I can remember, they were an Assault weapon their entire lives otherwise.

Right, my point was you change "frag" profiles on this one system, how many other systems have "frag" systems? Forget MLs. Now we're talking Frags launchers, Fragstorms, Frag Grenades, Cerberus Launchers, Stickk bombs, etc. We give frag profile weapons AP1, we have to review the cost of half the entries in several codexes for cost balancing, because now, it's better for my DKoK to mass volley grenades than to hope for 6s with Las. Fragstorms become better than Storm Bolters, regular Bolters, and basically, we've broken the mold.

Nope, easier to just chuck MLs on the rubbish pile and make it, AC/LC/PC/HB or go home.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, my point was you change "frag" profiles on this one system, how many other systems have "frag" systems? Forget MLs. Now we're talking Frags launchers, Fragstorms, Frag Grenades, Cerberus Launchers, Stickk bombs, etc. We give frag profile weapons AP1, we have to review the cost of half the entries in several codexes for cost balancing, because now, it's better for my DKoK to mass volley grenades than to hope for 6s with Las. Fragstorms become better than Storm Bolters, regular Bolters, and basically, we've broken the mold.

Nope, easier to just chuck MLs on the rubbish pile and make it, AC/LC/PC/HB or go home.

But also the Frag Missile Launcher is launching frag missiles and not frag grenades.

In fact, grenades need a whole different thread LOL

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, my point was you change "frag" profiles on this one system, how many other systems have "frag" systems? Forget MLs. Now we're talking Frags launchers, Fragstorms, Frag Grenades, Cerberus Launchers, Stickk bombs, etc. We give frag profile weapons AP1, we have to review the cost of half the entries in several codexes for cost balancing, because now, it's better for my DKoK to mass volley grenades than to hope for 6s with Las. Fragstorms become better than Storm Bolters, regular Bolters, and basically, we've broken the mold.

Nope, easier to just chuck MLs on the rubbish pile and make it, AC/LC/PC/HB or go home.

Those are all literally different weapons with completely different profiles. Some are heavy some assault some rapid fire some str 3, 4, 5… some have ap 0,1, 2.
The only thing in common is frag in name. I’m not even sure what your point is…

My point is that 40k is too bloated as is, and it starts with needlessly redundant models like ML. There is literally zero purpose to taking them. PC, LC, and AC all do the same jobs, but FAR better. MLs are a solution to a problem that never existed. Stop trying to save Gen 1 marines. They need to go extinct.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My point is that 40k is too bloated as is, and it starts with needlessly redundant models like ML. There is literally zero purpose to taking them. PC, LC, and AC all do the same jobs, but FAR better. MLs are a solution to a problem that never existed. Stop trying to save Gen 1 marines. They need to go extinct.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the ML, just wanted to point out the Frag Missile was different LOL

I get that it's a different weapon, but it's still a multi-profile weapon. Fragstorms can also be krak storms. Frag Grenades can also be Krak Grenades. Anything with an attack option to be "frag mode" would require a review I feel like, or else it's more special treatment for Astartes.