Switch Theme:

Community is toxic to Asuryani fans?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

bibotot wrote:
Not on DakkaDakka but Reddit, Fanfiction websites, and gaming forums. Whenever I suggest the Asuryani to not fight the Imperium only to be completely butchered - since they are supposed to be wise and careful and they can see the ass-kicking from a mile away - people keep deriding me and telling me to get lost.

It's really absurd. And I feel like the whole community hates this faction so much that they don't want to hear anything positive about them.

Sorry, so you suggest that Eldar shouldn't fight the Imperium and then get told to be quiet for that? I think we're missing something here because that doesn't make a lot of sense to me and isn't necessarily Eldar hate, it might just be "missing the point" that none of the races in 40k can stop fighting one another.

That said, yeah I think there is hate for the Eldar for the reasons stated above by many others.

 Bloviator wrote:
Anti-elf racism is the only tolerable racism these days. Being racist against elves is a personality trait for many gamers. Basically, when you have a collection of, uh, not mainstream people (geeks and freaks) interacting, their elevated insecurities will demand an outlet. Elves are the perfect receptacle for angst arising from racism, homophobia and body shame.

I know my personal anti-elf/eldar distaste comes from them being basically Humans +1. It's not helped by the Eldar races being portrayed as hoity-toity and above all the other races (sure, the Imperium does too but they usually back it up with action by actually eradicating their enemies instead of being like "ugh, can you believe that mon keigh dared to taint our sacred grounds with their filthy boots?")

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/04 12:56:39


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





BrianDavion wrote:rejecting the suggestion that the eldar and the IoM be best buddies and never fight isn't toxic,


Andilus Greatsword wrote:
bibotot wrote:
Not on DakkaDakka but Reddit, Fanfiction websites, and gaming forums. Whenever I suggest the Asuryani to not fight the Imperium only to be completely butchered - since they are supposed to be wise and careful and they can see the ass-kicking from a mile away - people keep deriding me and telling me to get lost.

It's really absurd. And I feel like the whole community hates this faction so much that they don't want to hear anything positive about them.

Sorry, so you suggest that Eldar shouldn't fight the Imperium and then get told to be quiet for that? I think we're missing something here because that doesn't make a lot of sense to me and isn't necessarily Eldar hate, it might just be "missing the point" that none of the races in 40k can stop fighting one another.

I think you two may have misinterpreted what the OP is saying. I thought they were arguing for eldar/imperial best buddies too until I re-read. My understanding is that what they're specifically arguing against is eldar throwing themselves into a fight against the imperium and then suffering a massive defeat as a result. As in, if the fight were going to go that badly, you'd think the army lead by future seers would realize it in advance and have the tools to avoid such a massive loss.

I spelled out some reasons why such major losses can happen despite the efforts of farseers on the previous page.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Bloviator wrote:
Anti-elf racism is the only tolerable racism these days. Being racist against elves is a personality trait for many gamers. Basically, when you have a collection of, uh, not mainstream people (geeks and freaks) interacting, their elevated insecurities will demand an outlet. Elves are the perfect receptacle for angst arising from racism, homophobia and body shame.

I know my personal anti-elf/eldar distaste comes from them being basically Humans +1. It's not helped by the Eldar races being portrayed as hoity-toity and above all the other races (sure, the Imperium does too but they usually back it up with action by actually eradicating their enemies instead of being like "ugh, can you believe that mon keigh dared to taint our sacred grounds with their filthy boots?")

I mean, eldar succeed in their objectives pretty frequently in the fluff including removing human presences from maiden worlds entirely. Isn't that about as much success as the imperium ever has at "eradicating their enemies"? And I can think of a few sisters and ecclesiarchs who are happy to complain about enemies with dirty boots profaning their sacred grounds. And both humans and eldar tend to ramble on about how superior their decaying societies are compared to others'.

So I guess I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Unless you're just pointing out that eldar are more likely to fail at their goals because they don't have imperial plot armor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/04 16:13:59



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer





In regards to the elf racism thing, it's just a meme to hate elves. It's funny, because they think they're better than you. That's probably why people like writing when they lose. You're beating down on a snob that insults and berates you, calling you a monkey, and thus berating your intelligence. It's not hard to see why people might write Eldar in losing situations, as we are human.

‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Eldar hating become something of a trope, as the players were portrayed as never being satisfied with anything offered.

As with many tropes, there is a grain of truth to it, but it has become exaggerated over time.

For instance? Yes they’ve near always been able to field a list widely seen as unfair. But, a deeper look usually shows the rest of their codex options to be somewhat lacking. Hence at organised events, you typically only saw The Good List, leading to the perception all Eldar players are therefore power gamers. Kind of a vicious circle of poorly informed folks.

Background wise some of it is folks misunderstanding the limits of Seers. They don’t see a future. They see many. And whilst they can nudge and guide and interfere, it’s an imprecise science, and more than once the interference has lead to disaster for the Eldar.

And much of the interference isn’t so much ending a threat, just ensuring it ends up bothering someone else, because the Eldar are every bit as arrogant and xenophobic as the Imperium. If not more so, as any time they seek an alliance? They’re more likely to walk away with the upper hand.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
Made in ca
Traitor




Canada

I have a distaste for elves of all flavour. That comes from years of min/maxers destroying AD&D campaigns with jank High elf or Dark elf builds (esp. the Dark elves..."I use the inate Darkness 30', then use the tumbling skill to get behind the target, and my character's Blindfighting skill negates the penalties from being blinded, and since the character is using bucklers and daggers, plus his 19 Dex, means he's 0 AC and has three attacks, with the first one being a Backstab.) it ruined the idea of them.

I have stayed far away and have tried Orcs, Orgres, kobolds, and Gnomes because elves and dwarves are the most common races, even above human. Rarely they are picked for the roleplaying experience, but for the bonuses that come from being that race. ...+1 to hit with longswords and bows before profiencenies or stat bonuses.


I would get some eldar.models, so I could do last.stands, or any other situation where they get wiped out to the last man. Maybe the last Craftworld's last stand? I love them that much. Forever being killed by Orcs or humans or robots or whatevers. You know, just typing it gets me thinking of how great.that is. hmmm...maybe I should do Slannash Demon army...huh, what was I saying? Ah yes, Elves, don't like 'em.







Pew, Pew! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





TheBestBucketHead wrote:In regards to the elf racism thing, it's just a meme to hate elves. It's funny, because they think they're better than you. That's probably why people like writing when they lose. You're beating down on a snob that insults and berates you, calling you a monkey, and thus berating your intelligence. It's not hard to see why people might write Eldar in losing situations, as we are human.

See, that's the good kind of space elf hate. One of the things I love about my drukhari is that they're moustache twirlers you love to hate. When my opponent throttles them, I can enjoy their defeat on some level too.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Eldar hating become something of a trope, as the players were portrayed as never being satisfied with anything offered.

As with many tropes, there is a grain of truth to it, but it has become exaggerated over time.

For instance? Yes they’ve near always been able to field a list widely seen as unfair. But, a deeper look usually shows the rest of their codex options to be somewhat lacking. Hence at organised events, you typically only saw The Good List, leading to the perception all Eldar players are therefore power gamers. Kind of a vicious circle of poorly informed folks.

Background wise some of it is folks misunderstanding the limits of Seers. They don’t see a future. They see many. And whilst they can nudge and guide and interfere, it’s an imprecise science, and more than once the interference has lead to disaster for the Eldar.

Yep. This is very much a thing. And then when we suggested it would be nice if the underpowered things were more viable so that we could play a wider variety of not-OP armies, people sometimes chose to interpret it as us wanting even more power to go with our OP monobuild. Like, no dude. I too dislike that the flavor of the month is discouraging list diversity. If it were up to me, I too would nerf the OP thing and then give some love to the UP things. (Unrelated: the current codex actually has pretty good internal balance overall. Hail of Doom was a thing, but I don't feel like there are any bad datasheets any more.)

steelhead177th wrote:I have a distaste for elves of all flavour. That comes from years of min/maxers destroying AD&D campaigns with jank High elf or Dark elf builds (esp. the Dark elves..."I use the inate Darkness 30', then use the tumbling skill to get behind the target, and my character's Blindfighting skill negates the penalties from being blinded, and since the character is using bucklers and daggers, plus his 19 Dex, means he's 0 AC and has three attacks, with the first one being a Backstab.) it ruined the idea of them.

To be fair, if you're naturally graceful/athletic and can turn off the lights on command, it's pretty intuitive to get good at fighting in the dark and to take equipment that makes you even harder to hit.

Rarely they are picked for the roleplaying experience, but for the bonuses that come from being that race...

Speaking from experience with DND 3rd-5th and Pathfinder, I found that people who played elves usually did so for the aesthetics.


I would get some eldar.models, so I could do last.stands, or any other situation where they get wiped out to the last man. Maybe the last Craftworld's last stand? I love them that much. Forever being killed by Orcs or humans or robots or whatevers. You know, just typing it gets me thinking of how great.that is. hmmm...maybe I should do Slannash Demon army...huh, what was I saying? Ah yes, Elves, don't like 'em.

I know you're kidding, but may I suggest a Rhana Dandra themed army with a bunch of phoenix lords? Or maybe a dire avenger spam army (might have to ignore the rule of 3) representing that story about 300 avengers holding off a Slaaneshi horde while their friends escape? Or even a Ynnari army so that you can actively get your own guys killed for fun and profit?









ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






On the AD&D thing, I suspect that’s more a failure of the DM more than anything.

TTRPG can be hard to get right, as you kind of need your group to all be on roughly the same wavelength.

Whilst there’s nothing inherently wrong with pouring over every book you can to find obscure combos, if everyone else is playing a more casual affair? You’re the odd duck and May wish to consider whether it’s the right group for you.

A DM/GM will always need to bend like a reed in the wind before their player’s preference. But even that can only go so far before folk just need to accept it’s not meant to be and abandon.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the AD&D thing, I suspect that’s more a failure of the DM more than anything.

TTRPG can be hard to get right, as you kind of need your group to all be on roughly the same wavelength.

Whilst there’s nothing inherently wrong with pouring over every book you can to find obscure combos, if everyone else is playing a more casual affair? You’re the odd duck and May wish to consider whether it’s the right group for you.

A DM/GM will always need to bend like a reed in the wind before their player’s preference. But even that can only go so far before folk just need to accept it’s not meant to be and abandon.

We're getting well and truly off-topic, but I'd add that min maxers and less optimization-focused players can coexist in the same D&D party as long as one form of fun doesn't prevent another. Maybe one guy has a hyper-optimized character that can solo combat encounters the rest of the party combined would struggle with. Fair enough. Maybe try to arrange combat encounters where there's a notably stronger miniboss among the enemy that the optimizer can deal with while the rest of the party handles its minions. I recall one PF game where our soul knife casually fell into a build that could one-shot most of the bosses, but he wasn't terribly good at anything other than doing damage. So the DM started creating encounters where the bosses could fly or or started in hard-to-reach places. Consequently, it ended up being easier for those with ranged and movement abilities to handle the bosses while the soulknife became our go-to for keeping the minions at bay.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
In regards to the elf racism thing, it's just a meme to hate elves. It's funny, because they think they're better than you. That's probably why people like writing when they lose. You're beating down on a snob that insults and berates you, calling you a monkey, and thus berating your intelligence. It's not hard to see why people might write Eldar in losing situations, as we are human.


I wouldn't say meme, as its older than that. The AD&D 2nd edition Complete Book of Elves started the book by outright stating elves are innately superior to every other race (and it went way downhill from there. Way, way down hill by the time you reach the Grey Elves and their happily accepted 'indentured servitude' of other, lesser 'sub-races' of elves who eagerly accept their roles). Its known now as the 'Master Race Handbook'

When the Torment Numenera kickstarter happened (for the computer game) and it was revealed that the author of the former was on the writing team, one of the kickstarter goals was that he'd apologize for writing the book. (he did not). Elf hate gets more than justified.

I remember reading dragon magazine back in the 80s, and the advertising tagline for Talislanta setting was simply 'No elves.' (their current tagline is 'Still no elves')

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/04 18:39:30


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in vn
Dakka Veteran




 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
bibotot wrote:
Not on DakkaDakka but Reddit, Fanfiction websites, and gaming forums. Whenever I suggest the Asuryani to not fight the Imperium only to be completely butchered - since they are supposed to be wise and careful and they can see the ass-kicking from a mile away - people keep deriding me and telling me to get lost.

It's really absurd. And I feel like the whole community hates this faction so much that they don't want to hear anything positive about them.

Sorry, so you suggest that Eldar shouldn't fight the Imperium and then get told to be quiet for that? I think we're missing something here because that doesn't make a lot of sense to me and isn't necessarily Eldar hate, it might just be "missing the point" that none of the races in 40k can stop fighting one another.



I have a very strong distaste for people arguing one race shouldn't be fighting each other because of their nature. Like how Tyranids shouldn't fight Necrons because they couldn't eat them, ignoring the fact the Necrons' planets have soil for biomass harvest.

This is not what I mean. The Asuryani are pragmatic and shouldn't be picking fights that would:

+ Lose horribly.

+ Invite retaliation somewhere down the future.

They could inadvertently cause another bad thing to happen instead because fate is fickle. But the direct outcome of the engagement should not be something the Asuryani be regretful about.

For example, in the Garden of Ghosts animation, I cannot comprehend how both the Asuyrani and the Space Marines have been reduced to stupid pathetic horde-lovers. No tactics, no reason for anything, just running into each other's weapons and getting killed in droves.
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




Its 40k both in lore and in the tabletop actual "tactics" are an abomination... After all its a power fantasy, its like asking for emotions in online porn, you are completelly missing the point!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/05 14:41:24


 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





bibotot wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
bibotot wrote:
Not on DakkaDakka but Reddit, Fanfiction websites, and gaming forums. Whenever I suggest the Asuryani to not fight the Imperium only to be completely butchered - since they are supposed to be wise and careful and they can see the ass-kicking from a mile away - people keep deriding me and telling me to get lost.

It's really absurd. And I feel like the whole community hates this faction so much that they don't want to hear anything positive about them.

Sorry, so you suggest that Eldar shouldn't fight the Imperium and then get told to be quiet for that? I think we're missing something here because that doesn't make a lot of sense to me and isn't necessarily Eldar hate, it might just be "missing the point" that none of the races in 40k can stop fighting one another.



I have a very strong distaste for people arguing one race shouldn't be fighting each other because of their nature. Like how Tyranids shouldn't fight Necrons because they couldn't eat them, ignoring the fact the Necrons' planets have soil for biomass harvest.

This is not what I mean. The Asuryani are pragmatic and shouldn't be picking fights that would:

+ Lose horribly.

+ Invite retaliation somewhere down the future.

They could inadvertently cause another bad thing to happen instead because fate is fickle. But the direct outcome of the engagement should not be something the Asuryani be regretful about.

For example, in the Garden of Ghosts animation, I cannot comprehend how both the Asuyrani and the Space Marines have been reduced to stupid pathetic horde-lovers. No tactics, no reason for anything, just running into each other's weapons and getting killed in droves.


It's almost like 40k is some kind of bombastic over the top setting where the power and scale levels are cranked up to 11 and futuristic elf people people run towards World war 1 style tanks and artillary lines with swords despite having far more advanced ranged weapons and not a hard scifi setting where people are logical and rational and do things that make sense.


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Bloviator wrote:
Anti-elf racism is the only tolerable racism these days. Being racist against elves is a personality trait for many gamers. Basically, when you have a collection of, uh, not mainstream people (geeks and freaks) interacting, their elevated insecurities will demand an outlet. Elves are the perfect receptacle for angst arising from racism, homophobia and body shame.
The hell... ? Elves aren't real.

 Togusa wrote:
... in 40K everyone is super racial fascist.
A hopelessly off-base reduction.

 CynosureEldar wrote:
The number of outright nazis that play 40K...
You mean a shockingly tiny group that virtually no one ever sees or encounters?

Methinks you've been spending too much time at Sigmarxism...




Just to be clear I'm talking about the in game lore, not the players. Maybe it's getting better? But for a while it was getting worse. Remember the T'au Castration Camps?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
bibotot wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
bibotot wrote:
Not on DakkaDakka but Reddit, Fanfiction websites, and gaming forums. Whenever I suggest the Asuryani to not fight the Imperium only to be completely butchered - since they are supposed to be wise and careful and they can see the ass-kicking from a mile away - people keep deriding me and telling me to get lost.

It's really absurd. And I feel like the whole community hates this faction so much that they don't want to hear anything positive about them.

Sorry, so you suggest that Eldar shouldn't fight the Imperium and then get told to be quiet for that? I think we're missing something here because that doesn't make a lot of sense to me and isn't necessarily Eldar hate, it might just be "missing the point" that none of the races in 40k can stop fighting one another.



I have a very strong distaste for people arguing one race shouldn't be fighting each other because of their nature. Like how Tyranids shouldn't fight Necrons because they couldn't eat them, ignoring the fact the Necrons' planets have soil for biomass harvest.

This is not what I mean. The Asuryani are pragmatic and shouldn't be picking fights that would:

+ Lose horribly.

+ Invite retaliation somewhere down the future.

They could inadvertently cause another bad thing to happen instead because fate is fickle. But the direct outcome of the engagement should not be something the Asuryani be regretful about.

For example, in the Garden of Ghosts animation, I cannot comprehend how both the Asuyrani and the Space Marines have been reduced to stupid pathetic horde-lovers. No tactics, no reason for anything, just running into each other's weapons and getting killed in droves.


It's almost like 40k is some kind of bombastic over the top setting where the power and scale levels are cranked up to 11 and futuristic elf people people run towards World war 1 style tanks and artillary lines with swords despite having far more advanced ranged weapons and not a hard scifi setting where people are logical and rational and do things that make sense.


Honestly, 40K is just British Anime, complete with the over the top swordsmanship and crazy powers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/05 16:51:23


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






I do think some portion of the hate comes from the fact that a good, well played Eldar force has the capacity to butcher Marines, and that the Eldar themselves can seem a little . . . fey.

That's probably a minority, but I'm sure I've encountered that.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Traitor




Canada

I wasn't joking about getting space elf models to play out last stands. But my distaste for elves doesn't extend to the players of elves. I would pitty the person that can't seperate themselves from the models or game.

Pew, Pew! 
   
Made in es
Dakka Veteran




steelhead177th wrote:
I wasn't joking about getting space elf models to play out last stands. But my distaste for elves doesn't extend to the players of elves. I would pitty the person that can't seperate themselves from the models or game.


How lucky are your opponents that your hatred for their chosen army dosent extent to their own personae.

In "gangland" Poland and "ganland" USA people arent that lucky... Every die roll means their lives are on the line, it must be thrilling.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




It is not a question of every day, but if games after game after game, for multiple editions you get farmed by eldar, I could imagine some people could be unhappy about it. I played only 2 editions. 8th and 9th. And both tought me , among other things, that each new eldar codex means less fun for people, specialy those who play marines.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
"Asuryani"


Who?

Where did this new made up word come from?

 Bloviator wrote:
Anti-elf racism is the only tolerable racism these days. Being racist against elves is a personality trait for many gamers. Basically, when you have a collection of, uh, not mainstream people (geeks and freaks) interacting, their elevated insecurities will demand an outlet. Elves are the perfect receptacle for angst arising from racism, homophobia and body shame.


Oh OK the Eldar, yeah, them.

Elves, from Tolkein on down, are basically the 'better than you' faction. Smarter, wiser, magical, faster, more agile, more empathic, better looking with better hair.

Yeah Marines are super soldiers and their stat line is literally Humans+1. But they were made by human and they're a linear progression. Plus their big, ugly and bald.

Elves are are just Mary Sues with extra Mary Sue on top. So yeah, there's a lot to dislike about their core concept that Commie Fishmen and Space Mummies from Before Time don't really have.
Don't forget they need to be a dying or isolated race, because elves have to be better at failing too.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in eg
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Cairo, Egypt

A dying race whose sorrow is 10,000 times that meager feeling you humans mistake for sadness!

Yet whose inevitable decline has absolutely no effect on the game except that sometimes they have work a little to defeat you mere mortals.

They're not just Better Than You (tm), they're also complete drama queens about it.

 
   
Made in us
Ariadna Berserk Highlander



Florida

Well in my own experience my dislike for all things pointy eared started back as far as D&D and other fantasy settings (80's timeframe) where the smugness filled the air.

I remember a big uptick in elf hate, in most of my circles and online, when the Jackson lotr movies popped out.

Only 2 specific elves I like, which shows good taste as both Ashram and Parn share in sharing exquisite judgment of character.

All was thought hopeless until...

Suddenly the skies burned and the earth crashed.

Somehow Hellraiser and Pirates of Dark Water had a baby...IIIIINNNN SPAAAAACE!

So they're an exception.

But Eldar are still terrible. Except Striking Scorpions.

On a slightly more serious note I'd say the general dislike for elves does generally come from the Legolas syndrome (not the first to portray the archetype smug and beautiful elf but one that really broke mainstream).

Typically they tend to be better for the sake of being better in a lot of material and that usually garners a lot of dislike.

Kind of like Superman.

Except he isn't an elf.

Or...is he? hmmm...

The other more global reason would be Eldar (as well as their fantasy brethren) have always held up really well in their respective settings on the tabletop where other armies have had struggles. I can say ASF and botwd left a terrible taste for most.

So ya balance of a faction where they are highly skilled and equipped with deadly weapons was always rough recipe.

But never had a problem with say the elves in Wizard but it really does seem that most types of elf across most spectrums are the highly skilled, beautiful, perfect and smug gets used in a multitude of media.


"If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh."
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






"Typically they tend to be better for the sake of being better in a lot of material. . ."

That also describes Space Marines.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

cavebear56 wrote:
Typically they tend to be better for the sake of being better in a lot of material and that usually garners a lot of dislike.

Kind of like Superman.


I think the fact that people like Space Marines shows that there's more to it than just resenting 'everything you can do I can do better' factions.

Maybe it's because Marines are written to be self-inserts while Eldar/elves are distinctly 'other'. Superhuman protagonists tend to be written as a vessel for a relatable fantasy (eg Marines are pretty much power fantasy through and through), but Eldar/elves are often written as just weird and inhuman enough to be hard to relate to.

I also suspect some of it is gamers identifying more positively with hypermasculine than androgynous character coding. Maybe less so now than it used to be, but I remember a lot of homophobic comments about LotR's elves in the early-00s.

   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

My understanding about Eldar Farseers was always that they more saw possible futures, and attempted to steer the outcomes into the best possible one, more so than just "seeing the future". And sometimes they get it wrong, and it backfires, big time. The obvious example being in the novel Void Stalker, where their actions actually bring about the events that they were trying to prevent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
"Typically they tend to be better for the sake of being better in a lot of material. . ."

That also describes Space Marines.

And there's plenty of dislike for space marines, possibly for similar reasons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/06 00:11:46


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
My understanding about Eldar Farseers was always that they more saw possible futures, and attempted to steer the outcomes into the best possible one, more so than just "seeing the future". And sometimes they get it wrong, and it backfires, big time. The obvious example being in the novel Void Stalker, where their actions actually bring about the events that they were trying to prevent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
"Typically they tend to be better for the sake of being better in a lot of material. . ."

That also describes Space Marines.

And there's plenty of dislike for space marines, possibly for similar reasons.


I dislike Space Marines only bc they get literally armies of new releases all the time and DE has not had a new unit in 12yrs and had units taken away. But we got 5 units converted from finecast to plastic 2 of wych are worst than the finecast sculpts, so I guess thats good enough according to GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/06 00:15:25


   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
My understanding about Eldar Farseers was always that they more saw possible futures, and attempted to steer the outcomes into the best possible one, more so than just "seeing the future". And sometimes they get it wrong, and it backfires, big time. The obvious example being in the novel Void Stalker, where their actions actually bring about the events that they were trying to prevent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
"Typically they tend to be better for the sake of being better in a lot of material. . ."

That also describes Space Marines.

And there's plenty of dislike for space marines, possibly for similar reasons.


I dislike Space Marines only bc they get literally armies of new releases all the time and DE has not had a new unit in 12yrs and had units taken away. But we got 5 units converted from finecast to plastic 2 of wych are worst than the finecast sculpts, so I guess thats good enough according to GW.

That's a pretty good reason, IMO.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Man, people disliking Elves because they are Mary Sues from "Tolkien on down" really miss the whole point...

...Which is that physical beauty, magical prowess, inhuman reflexes, preterhuman strength, and great hair do nothing to prevent the inevitable decline of their race, while frumpy men with bad breath and greasy hair will succeed, because their soul is noble.

The hroar and feär of an elf are tied inextricably to the world, and thusly they appear perfect within it. But the souls of men are free, even from the world itself. Whence comes death, then - as Illuvatar's gift, an unshackling from the pains and sufferings of the world, a freedom the Elves, for all their worldly perfection, will never enjoy.

(Except for those who fall in love with men or choose to be men, in the case of half-elves lol)
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 catbarf wrote:
cavebear56 wrote:
Typically they tend to be better for the sake of being better in a lot of material and that usually garners a lot of dislike.

Kind of like Superman.


I think the fact that people like Space Marines shows that there's more to it than just resenting 'everything you can do I can do better' factions.

Maybe it's because Marines are written to be self-inserts while Eldar/elves are distinctly 'other'. Superhuman protagonists tend to be written as a vessel for a relatable fantasy (eg Marines are pretty much power fantasy through and through), but Eldar/elves are often written as just weird and inhuman enough to be hard to relate to.

I also suspect some of it is gamers identifying more positively with hypermasculine than androgynous character coding. Maybe less so now than it used to be, but I remember a lot of homophobic comments about LotR's elves in the early-00s.


Elves can be just as much inserts and power fantasy, just of a different sort. They aren't the chunky beefcake hypermasculine stereotype but there is more to "relatable fantasy" than just that one niche stereotype. Protagonists don't have to be the biggest buffest one around, and Eldar/elves are more like the kinds of characters seen in wuxia fantasy where agility, grace, and skill are valued and prevail over brute strength. Eldar are space ninjas and there are games where the protagonist is far more like that than Superman. Players don't seem to have any problem identifying with them.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Iracundus wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
cavebear56 wrote:
Typically they tend to be better for the sake of being better in a lot of material and that usually garners a lot of dislike.

Kind of like Superman.


I think the fact that people like Space Marines shows that there's more to it than just resenting 'everything you can do I can do better' factions.

Maybe it's because Marines are written to be self-inserts while Eldar/elves are distinctly 'other'. Superhuman protagonists tend to be written as a vessel for a relatable fantasy (eg Marines are pretty much power fantasy through and through), but Eldar/elves are often written as just weird and inhuman enough to be hard to relate to.

I also suspect some of it is gamers identifying more positively with hypermasculine than androgynous character coding. Maybe less so now than it used to be, but I remember a lot of homophobic comments about LotR's elves in the early-00s.


Elves can be just as much inserts and power fantasy, just of a different sort. They aren't the chunky beefcake hypermasculine stereotype but there is more to "relatable fantasy" than just that one niche stereotype. Protagonists don't have to be the biggest buffest one around, and Eldar/elves are more like the kinds of characters seen in wuxia fantasy where agility, grace, and skill are valued and prevail over brute strength. Eldar are space ninjas and there are games where the protagonist is far more like that than Superman. Players don't seem to have any problem identifying with them.

100%. Ain't there some terrible fiction series with an author self insert as an elf dual wielding katanas?
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





EviscerationPlague wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
cavebear56 wrote:
Typically they tend to be better for the sake of being better in a lot of material and that usually garners a lot of dislike.

Kind of like Superman.


I think the fact that people like Space Marines shows that there's more to it than just resenting 'everything you can do I can do better' factions.

Maybe it's because Marines are written to be self-inserts while Eldar/elves are distinctly 'other'. Superhuman protagonists tend to be written as a vessel for a relatable fantasy (eg Marines are pretty much power fantasy through and through), but Eldar/elves are often written as just weird and inhuman enough to be hard to relate to.

I also suspect some of it is gamers identifying more positively with hypermasculine than androgynous character coding. Maybe less so now than it used to be, but I remember a lot of homophobic comments about LotR's elves in the early-00s.


Elves can be just as much inserts and power fantasy, just of a different sort. They aren't the chunky beefcake hypermasculine stereotype but there is more to "relatable fantasy" than just that one niche stereotype. Protagonists don't have to be the biggest buffest one around, and Eldar/elves are more like the kinds of characters seen in wuxia fantasy where agility, grace, and skill are valued and prevail over brute strength. Eldar are space ninjas and there are games where the protagonist is far more like that than Superman. Players don't seem to have any problem identifying with them.

100%. Ain't there some terrible fiction series with an author self insert as an elf dual wielding katanas?

Ah yes, Jarlaxle. Every Fighter for a solid ten years afterwards was a dual-wielding dark elf with a fancy hat for a companion. Truly dark times.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




On the 'elf' lore, Privateer press's elves - their retribution of scyrah faction (bring replaced y Dusk house kalyss which is an interesting lore directory tion but o/t) was in my opinion one of the best realisations of the 'elf' concept in a long long time.

Fascinating lore. Privateer Press at their peak (start of mk2) The best part? Humans came first. The elven gods saw the human god getting stronger because of 'worship' and they wanted in. They tried to make a +1 race which admittedly lives a century or two longer but in a lot of ways is still quite flawed. And it went downhill from there (too closely linked to their gods). There are so many other clever takes on the concept.


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: