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Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Asenion wrote:
I don't know. Just like on TT it doesn't even seem like a Marine can take down 5 Guardsmen tbh and if we go by lore there are Guardsmen who have easily proven themselves equal to or better then Astartes.

The game doesn't emulate the background perfectly because if it did then Tyranid players would have unlimited points for every battle and 10 Tactical Marines would be able to hold off a thousand Orks. Accepting that you are playing a representation of the 40k background and not a perfect replication means you won't spend eternity asking yourself questions about why X story doesn't align with Y game thing.
As for the second part, just because some Guard characters (lower case for the term not upper case for the unit type) have done X doesn't mean all Guardsmen can do X.
   
Made in ro
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Here to parrot what others have already said about who the Author is, and what side their on. I mean, 1 marine took down an entire coven of Dark Eldar, in a prepared ambush, with a knife and a bolter, in Abnett's book about the Snakes of Ithaca. Surely one dark Eldar is worth 5-10 Guardsmen?

   
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Space Marines aren't machines or gods. One Guardsman with a decent gun can kill anywhere from one to all of them depending on the ammo, conditions, and luck. Lasguns even have a chance to penetrate their armor. I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that we're not giving the guardsmen artillery, tanks, or particularly anti marine firepower. We'll even say that they'll run away once they reach 5% casualties. The Guardsmen win. That's 500 Guardsmen the Marine has to kill. While at least hundreds are firing on one Marine at a time. Make it 10 Marines and give Guardsmen artillery and anti Marine weapons, and the Guardsmen win. Make it 100 Marines against the same number of Guardsmen, and the Guardsmen likely win. 100 to 1 is hard to beat. Give the Marines their support and artillery and anti infantry weapons, it's more even, and I might give it to supported Marines.

Marines are not gods, Bolters are not Zeus' lightning. Against the dark forces and thirsting gods, against monsters of Chaos, and Xenos beyond our imagining, it is the Guardsmen that have held the line for ten thousand years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 20:42:20


‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in fr
Boosting Ultramarine Biker




 Void__Dragon wrote:
40k is not a military sci-fi world ala Starship Troopers. It is in fact a heroic fantasy setting (just in space) more akin to the Iliad and just like it features incredibly powerful protagonists who can rout entire armies through strength of arms.


And His name is Marbo.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
Space Marines aren't machines or gods. One Guardsman with a decent gun can kill anywhere from one to all of them depending on the ammo, conditions, and luck. Lasguns even have a chance to penetrate their armor. I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that we're not giving the guardsmen artillery, tanks, or particularly anti marine firepower. We'll even say that they'll run away once they reach 5% casualties. The Guardsmen win. That's 500 Guardsmen the Marine has to kill. While at least hundreds are firing on one Marine at a time. Make it 10 Marines and give Guardsmen artillery and anti Marine weapons, and the Guardsmen win. Make it 100 Marines against the same number of Guardsmen, and the Guardsmen likely win. 100 to 1 is hard to beat. Give the Marines their support and artillery and anti infantry weapons, it's more even, and I might give it to supported Marines.

Marines are not gods, Bolters are not Zeus' lightning. Against the dark forces and thirsting gods, against monsters of Chaos, and Xenos beyond our imagining, it is the Guardsmen that have held the line for ten thousand years.


Yeah I was kind of thinking that. And the fact is the Guard WILL be bringing vehicles and artillery. Guardsmen are the real power behind the Throne.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 21:04:35


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Asenion wrote:

Yeah I was kind of thinking that. And the fact is the Guard WILL be bringing vehicles and artillery. Guardsmen are the real power behind the Throne.


There are more Leman Russ tanks than there are Astartes in the galaxy.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Asenion wrote:
And the fact is the Guard WILL be bringing vehicles and artillery. Guardsmen are the real power behind the Throne.

Not necessarily. The way the regimental system is designed, is so that one regiment can rebel without having too much power. For example, in a battlegroup, there may be 5 regiments but each one only fills one specific role. The Cadian 40th and 50th are Infantry regiments, the Valhallan 99th, and Catachan 45th are Armoured regiments, and the Mordian 999th is an Artillery regiment. If the 999th turns against the Imperium it has no Infantry units to defend it or hold ground and no Armour to launch breakthrough assaults. Any responding forces, therefore, have a much easier time defeating them.
The Guard also has no aircraft or space-faring vessels of any kind so if a regiment turns traitor, it has no air support and no way of getting off-world, leaving the Imperium with plenty of time to get more troops to destroy the traitors.
Each institution of the Imperium is powerful in its own ways but has built-in safeguards to prevent them from being abused during periods of civil war thanks to a little thing called the Horus Heresy.
The Guard can take and hold worlds but only because the Navy transports them there. Likewise, the Navy holds supreme power in the void but can't take and hold planets.
The Astartes are a powerful force and largely independent of the Imperium but could not overthrow the ruling body of power as that body commands much greater supplies of resources and troops that could put an Astartes rebellion down. The Mechanicum is also a powerful and largely independent organisation but relies on the Imperium for the majority of its resources from raw materials to workers and like the Astartes could not hope to defeat the Imperium in a war (hence the Treaty of Mars).
The Ecclesiarchy commands the allegiance of all faithful Imperial citizens (i.e. pretty much everyone) and has its own militant arm in the Adepta Sororitas but needs to balance its political ambitions with the fragile peace maintained with the various other Imperial organisations that don't like the Ecclesiarchy getting too much power and doing a Goge Vandire. The Inquisition has theoretically limitless power, answering only to the Emperor, but again this has to be balanced with reality and the fact that the Inquisition is one of the smallest organistations that would take little time to destroy if it pushed its limits too often.
The only Imperial organisation that is truly limitless in power is the Administratum. Without the Administratum the Imperium doesn't function but its many adepts, workers and slaves are too busy filling out forms, signing documents, and having paper wars to care about silly things like politics or having a stranglehold on power.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/29 21:34:29


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






^The mechanicum would probably quite happily do its own mining for raw materials, servitors et all. The Mechanicum doesn't really need the Imperium, although it's comfortable reaping the benefits from it.

Edit: The weak link for the Mechanicum is probably the Golden Throne itself and the Astronomicon, without which, interstellar travel gets much, much harder.

For the OP:
Marines vs. Guardsmen depends on context. The thing is, a primary pillar of Marine deployment is their ability to choose the context.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/29 22:09:09


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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New Zealand

'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops'
-Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists
   
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Tygre wrote:
'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops'
-Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists

Well heck that's just 1 for 10.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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One Marine with a bolter vs Guardsmen with just lasguns? Probably 20-30 depending on context, more if its a situation where the Marine has every advantage. At that point sheer weight of firepower will bring the Marine down.

Give the Guardsmen weapons beyond the lasgun? Like a melta, plasma, or even grenade launcher? Probably closer to 10-15.

Marines are not unkillable, unstoppable machines - but they are definitely in all aspects except numbers better than your standard human trooper. Enough firepower can bring down any number of Marines.

Luckily for the Marines, their job isn't attrition warfare. Its shock and awe combined with disruption of command, supply lines, and bringing overwhelming strikes into a single critical location. The job of the Space Marines is to drop in, destroy a strong point quickly and in as brutal a way as possible, and then leave before the enemy can fully react. Instead, reinforcements arrive to find that the big artillery piece has been destroyed and that most of the people died while eating their lunch, not even having time to fully react or realize what the hell was going on. Lightning strike, destroy key position and then let the Guard handle the day to day activities.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
^The mechanicum would probably quite happily do its own mining for raw materials, servitors et all. The Mechanicum doesn't really need the Imperium, although it's comfortable reaping the benefits from it.

Edit: The weak link for the Mechanicum is probably the Golden Throne itself and the Astronomicon, without which, interstellar travel gets much, much harder.

For the OP:
Marines vs. Guardsmen depends on context. The thing is, a primary pillar of Marine deployment is their ability to choose the context.


If we're going to just keep saying "depends on the context" - well heck, given the right context one Tyranid can kill 10,000 Space Marines. I was hoping we could agree on some basic understanding and interpretation for such a boast and not get into extremely biased/niche circumstances.
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here to parrot what others have already said about who the Author is, and what side their on. I mean, 1 marine took down an entire coven of Dark Eldar, in a prepared ambush, with a knife and a bolter, in Abnett's book about the Snakes of Ithaca. Surely one dark Eldar is worth 5-10 Guardsmen?



Considering the same author had a squad of 12 Ghosts and about a hundred civilian distraction take out 5 Marines, even then there's no consensus.

I personally favor a much lower power scale, matching that quote from Dorn about the 100 men vs 10 Marines. It's generally the case in IG books where Marines are a very clear threat without getting into silly territory, and doing away with the awful transhuman dread thing that some authors mentioned.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

 Insectum7 wrote:
Tygre wrote:
'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops'
-Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists

Well heck that's just 1 for 10.


Its an older quote, but it was used/paraphrased in the Blood and Fire (2013) novel. So in Rogal Dorns opinion a Squad of Space Marines is worth a company of Imperial Army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 04:12:37


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Bobthehero wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here to parrot what others have already said about who the Author is, and what side their on. I mean, 1 marine took down an entire coven of Dark Eldar, in a prepared ambush, with a knife and a bolter, in Abnett's book about the Snakes of Ithaca. Surely one dark Eldar is worth 5-10 Guardsmen?



Considering the same author had a squad of 12 Ghosts and about a hundred civilian distraction take out 5 Marines, even then there's no consensus.

I personally favor a much lower power scale, matching that quote from Dorn about the 100 men vs 10 Marines. It's generally the case in IG books where Marines are a very clear threat without getting into silly territory, and doing away with the awful transhuman dread thing that some authors mentioned.


Another thing is people are acting like the Guard run if just a single Guardsman gets killed or whatnot. If that was the case how is it they can take down Tyranids, Demons, Orks, Necrons, etc?
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Asenion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^The mechanicum would probably quite happily do its own mining for raw materials, servitors et all. The Mechanicum doesn't really need the Imperium, although it's comfortable reaping the benefits from it.

Edit: The weak link for the Mechanicum is probably the Golden Throne itself and the Astronomicon, without which, interstellar travel gets much, much harder.

For the OP:
Marines vs. Guardsmen depends on context. The thing is, a primary pillar of Marine deployment is their ability to choose the context.


If we're going to just keep saying "depends on the context" - well heck, given the right context one Tyranid can kill 10,000 Space Marines. I was hoping we could agree on some basic understanding and interpretation for such a boast and not get into extremely biased/niche circumstances.


The thing is Marines have lots of training and practice, and in the right situations CAN just wipe the floor with regular human troopers. As someone stated, a single marine guarding a narrow hallway can easily fend off a disproportionate number of Guardsmen, as the Marine will have cover (along with power armor) and a direct firing line while the Guardsmen have to advance in the open in small numbers. On the flip-side, a few decent sharpshootres 1km away from the marine in concealed positions while the Marine is busy duking it out with a squad of regular Guardsmen stand a decent chance of doing some real damage.

1 Marine fighting it out against 10,000 Guardsmen out in the open is just kind of the extreme end of bad writing. If you want to say that the Marine was part of a drop pod strike that took out the command post of the X Army Group and stole a bunch of maps and files on their way out as they torched the place then yeah, in the end that one Marine probably effectively downed 10k Guardsmen. Without the leadership, the enemy is weaker. Having maps with positions taken will cause chaos as the Marines might find further weak points to either strike, or send the Guard to advance into. Captured files could lead to more vips found, or learn of offensives so that they can be countered, or baited out, etc.

The strength of Space Marines is that they can usually choose where they will be fighting, since they have their own transports, drop pods, transport ships, etc. They can send in overwhelming force into a single location, break it, and leave before the enemy has time to fully react.
   
Made in au
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SemperMortis wrote:
If you are a Bolter Porn aficionado? Yes

If you have any kind of common sense? No

If you base it on the game play? No

GW/Black Library Writers failed History class...horrifically, they also failed Math, but luckily their straight A's in Literature and creative writing carried them through public education.

3rd War for Armageddon, the largest battle since the Horus Heresy (Fluff). What were the forces involved? Imperial Guard brought about 1.5 Million and the Marines had 50,000.

In WW1, the allied forces along the Western Front had more than 15 MILLION men. The US alone contributed 2.1 Million troops to the Western Front.

So again, GW sucks at history and math


Several of the original GW creators (no idea about the folks there now) were history enthusiasts, so I kind of assumed that the weird scale of 40k was an intentional joke that never landed.
   
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Cairo, Egypt

 Insectum7 wrote:

Marines vs. Guardsmen depends on context. The thing is, a primary pillar of Marine deployment is their ability to choose the context.


This is so key.

Even on the table top I don't get to throw down a couple 100 guardsmen with tank companies and walls of artillery. I get 100-200 guardsmen to 50 or so Marines with a couple of tanks.

If we assume this is in the larger context of a war the Marines have managed to catch a small portion of million-man army and engage them in isolation. The same with Ork, Nids and other hoard armies.

Eldar and Necrons are the masters of mobility with interstellar teleportation, but Marines aren't far behind.

The situation where a Marine has to do the Charge of the Light Brigade against a prepared position should be rare, Marines can always pull back and drop behind that prepared position.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 08:06:02


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Tygre wrote:
'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops'
-Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists

Yep. One marine is worth ten guardsmen. Where the absurd idea of ten thousand came from?

I am gobsmacked that several people actually think that it is a question worth seriously pondering rather than just answering "LOL, no."


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Crimson wrote:
Tygre wrote:
'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops'
-Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists

Yep. One marine is worth ten guardsmen. Where the absurd idea of ten thousand came from?

I am gobsmacked that several people actually think that it is a question worth seriously pondering rather than just answering "LOL, no."



I think because that quote came from a time when it was a game setting, while modern perspectives see it as a protagonist's setting as so much of it is told from the perspective of marine protagonists winning against ridiculous odds.

It comes back to that plot armour point made previously.


A wargame as a setting is described almost like a history text, just the facts, averages etc.

Modern 40k has been retro transcribed into a multiheaded protagonist monstrosity. I commented as much on how small it seems when each army's special characters have to be at the centre or every protagonist worthy event in the game.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Crimson wrote:
Tygre wrote:
'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops'
-Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists

Yep. One marine is worth ten guardsmen. Where the absurd idea of ten thousand came from?

I am gobsmacked that several people actually think that it is a question worth seriously pondering rather than just answering "LOL, no."

It is totally absurd if you're talking about a straight slugfest, yes, complete rubbish.

But if you're talking about the full vertical integration of marine assets and the amount of effort saved by ending a conflict quickly, then I'd argue one can get those numbers. If you multiply the 1 v 10000 by 100, that's a Battle Company with a Strike Cruiser and intermediary assets vs. a million Guardsmen with their assets. Show up quick, butcher the command, bombard weapons depots from space, swiftly excise attempts to rally new organization, and start cutting up the rest piecemeal until capitulation.

Unless of course the plot says otherwise.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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I feel there’s no point in considering the Guard having the preferred ground.

That’s…not how Astartes fight. It’s not their purpose. Because they’re not squandered.

A Guard Regiment might be ordered “stand there. Shoot the enemy. When you die, try not to bleed on your equipment too much”. Because they are completely disposable and imminently replaceable.

Astartes? Far more precise. If their tactical projections show a range of attack options, they’ll go with the most favourable situation. Because unlike the Guard? They have a say in the matter.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
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Also, when we consider Space Marines making a concentrated war effort, it's not like it's all or nothing. It's not "All the Marines die and lose" or "All the Marines survive and win." 20 Marines out of 100 fighting a million Guardsmen might be a worthy loss, but it is absolutely a huge blow to the Marines. 20 people that took decades to raise to where they are. Hundreds of years of experience gone in one battle. And if they take heavy losses, let's say 40 dead, that's a massive, unforgivable loss.

40 out of 1 million Marines may not be huge, but if Marines lost too many people per fight, it's an effective loss, and can eventually wipe them out.

But, how many Guardsmen do you think it would take to kill one Tyranid Warrior? In my head, a Tyranid Warrior should beat a Marine 1v1 almost every time, but I imagine most people would say that it would take less Guardsmen to kill a Tyranid Warrior than a Space Marine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 17:38:11


‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in de
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I mean, Cain's books and even Gaunt's books show heretic astartes falling constantly to las weapons, or other base level weapons. Cain literally duels one and survives with just a chain sword.

Then again, the Astartes have naval ships. As has been expressed in other threads, whoever calls the navy first kinda wins. If you have ground based weapons, but nothing that can reach or dissuade a full battleship from raining death on your planet, you lose. Lance strikes beat guardsmen and Space Marines in the RPS game of 40k, 100% of the time. And just guessing, but I think the navy would pick the Astartes over the calls of the IG 99% of the time.

If Sly Marbo is on that planet, he can destroy most naval ships by frowning at it hard enough.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Also on the fleet thing?

Astartes picket vessels such as the Gladius class might be commended, or at least overseen, by a single Astartes.

Given they’re standard issue across Chapters? Sucks to be those 10,000 hypothetical Guardsmen.

For reference? The Gladius Class was around 3km in length. To mix settings? A Super Star Destroyer is around 5.5km.

That’s right. A ship and it’s equivalent typically deployed in squadrons as picket and support ships are staggeringly huge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/30 18:40:33


Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

We're assuming the grounds forces have no way to prevent themselves from being ship'd out of existence, no void shields or anti-ship laser batteries.

Even if that leaves the option of drop-pods. The answer is simple. Dig your command dug-out to be only 6 feet in height, and the Marines are stuck.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
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DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






I mean, grenades and flamethrowers do exist for those exact circumstances...
   
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If we assume the single Astartes has an entire ship of support, I think we can assume 10k Guardsmen have anti naval defenses.

‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

 Gert wrote:
I mean, grenades and flamethrowers do exist for those exact circumstances...


Make the corridors long and winding, then. I mean it doesn't take a genius to add some basic level of protection.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
If we assume the single Astartes has an entire ship of support, I think we can assume 10k Guardsmen have anti naval defenses.


No. That would be the Imperial Navy, because ongoing post-Heresy military jitters.

You know, that same thing preventing Chapters getting as big as they can and doing whatever they want?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
 
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