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Just from the codex;

Dakka weapons;
Big Shoota*
Dakkagun*
Deffgun
Deffstorm Mega Shoota (LOW)
Kombi-Rokkit
Kombi-Skorcha
Kustom Shoota
Mek Speshul
Morks Roar*
Rivet Kannon
Shoota
Supa Gatler
Supa Shoota*
Twin Big Shoota*

Heavy weapons;
Bubble Chukka
Da Rippa
Deffkannon
Eavy Lobba
Gaze of Gork
Grotzooka
Kannon
Killkannon
Kombi-Rokkit
Kopta Rokkits*
Kustom Mega Kannon*
Kustom Mega Zappa
Lobba
Rokkit Kannon*
Rokkit Launcha*
Shokk Attack Gun
Smasha Gun
Snazzgun
Stikka Kannon
Supa Rokkits
Traktor Kannon
Zzap Gun


I have noted all of the ones you're likely to find in a given game with an asterisk. From personal experience, the Dakka ones are taken because the unit you're taking comes with it and the unit is useful for other reasons, and the Heavy ones you take because of the weapon.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

To be blunt that would be useless and not only not fluffy, but not helpful with most Ork weapons that are "ranged" weapons. For instance, your 18' rule would benefit shootas and dakkaguns but leave heavy weapons functionally useless. Orkz don't aim besides in a general direction, so ignoring hit modifiers actually makes sense since they weren't aiming at the blur of your stealth suit, they were just aiming in your general direction

Hmm. Do orks have a lot of heavy weapons currently? The only weapons I'm pretty sure are heavy are rokkits, which are low rate of fire and thus probably not well suited for doing the "wall of lead" thing. I imagine a lot of the other heavy weapons would be vehicle-mounted meaning the to-hit penalty for moving and shooting isn't a thing, and their ability to move before shooting would mean you could take advantage of the proposed "ignore to-hit penalties while within 18 inches of the target" rule. You just have to be willing to move around and focus your fire on closer targets. Which, on paper, seems like a decent trade-off and pretty fluffy for orks? You just wouldn't be able to turn off enemy special rules with the units sitting comfortably in your back lines. That would give orks an interesting place as being a shooty army that is rewarded for moving towards the enemy and would avoid just cancelling out enemy special rules. The orks get stronger and fluffier than they are now, and your opponent's stealth suits still do *something*.

Happy to be corrected though. I don't play orks.

6s already always hit AND they got rid of the 6s add another hit roll which was a bad rule to begin with anyway. But put this in perspective, I paid 300+pts for a Morkanaut and when I shoot at anything in the game with a -1 to hit, I am as likely to hurt myself as my target....does that make sense to you? And as mentioned, orkz don't really aim, so giving them -1 to hit because you are stealthy isn't very fluffy. You get hit by the wall of lead not by the sniper shot.

Nonsense. You're more likely to hurt yourself than the enemy because successful hits still have to wound.

There is already a precedent of a rule alike. FW killtank when equipped with a sort of gattling has a +1 to hit when in half range.

Thanks Afrodactyl for the summary for people who aren't familiar with Orks!

As you can see though, one of the worst parts of the changes for the Ork army in the transition to 9th was that the most prevalent assault weapons we had in the army have been changed to basically crappier rapid fire weapons. It's bad enough that the Evil Sunz advance and shoot with no penalties for assault weapons subfaction trait is effectively useless given how we have so little assault weapons that aren't flamers that auto-hit anyways. It heavily reduces the mobility of the army outside of the Speedmob AoR, and Dakka Weapons in general are anemic in terms of amount of shots and AP in most instances. Combined with the poor BS of Orks and you're better off not firing them most games.

Ork shooting generally needs two things in my opinion:

1. A way to take the edge off of shooting penalties, maybe a +1 to hit while 12" or less away as others have suggested. An army wide 5+ always hits rule is probably too strong, and the 12" limitation promotes counterplay, as others have stated.

2. Dakka weapons count as Assault weapons. They're now a hybrid of Assault and Rapid Fire weapons, gaining the benefits and downsides of both. Evil Sunz is now a viable Klan choice, and it even buffs awful units like Shoota Boys.


:EDIT:

Just for completions sake.

Assault weapons;
Blitz Missiles
Burna
Burna Exhausts
Eyez of Mork
Heavy Squig Launcha
Killa Jet
Kombi-Skorcha
Kustom Mega Blasta
Kustom Shokk Rifle
Saddlegit Weapons
Sawn Off Shotgun
Skorcha
Skorcha Missile Racks
Snagga Klaw
Squig Launcha
Stikka
Stikkbomb Flinga
Tellyport Blasta
Thump Gun
Twin Boomstikk
Wing Missiles
Wurrtower

In reality, Dakka weapons should've been Assault Weapons that just gained shots as you closed the distance. Letting them run and gun would've been too broken though per GW "playtesters" and "rules writers"

Sure I think this is fine, as long as you don’t play with any faction traits either. Several armies give out -1 to hit if certain conditions are met. Why should those players lose their subfaction bonuses?

It’s pretty stupid if orks are somehow not impacted by intervening terrain or the difficulty in hitting an aircraft. The correct way is to rewrite dice modifiers all together across the board. -1 and +1 to hit and wound abilities should not be in the game. It’s too strong when you only have 6 options. Unfortunately it is, so everyone should play by the same base rules.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Sure I think this is fine, as long as you don’t play with any faction traits either. Several armies give out -1 to hit if certain conditions are met. Why should those players lose their subfaction bonuses?

It’s pretty stupid if orks are somehow not impacted by intervening terrain or the difficulty in hitting an aircraft. The correct way is to rewrite dice modifiers all together across the board. -1 and +1 to hit and wound abilities should not be in the game. It’s too strong when you only have 6 options. Unfortunately it is, so everyone should play by the same base rules.

And Twisted Helix gives +1 Strength-making it useless on a normally S3 model targeting a T5 or T8 model.
Ultramarines let you fall back and shoot-so not very useful against Tau or other armies that don't close to melee.
Hell, Dark Angels get permanent transhuman on their Terminators-basically negating the entire Blood Angels trait against them in an all Terminator list, but that bonus is useless against anything S4 or less.

Personally, I think it would have been best if Dakka wasn't a weapon type and was instead a weapon ability. The weapons go back to being Assault with a fixed number of attacks and get get something like:

Dakka: This weapon gains a +1 to Hit when the target unit is within 1/2 the weapon's range characteristic.

And we go home. Orks shoot better when they are close enough for the hail of bullets to be hard to dodge. It even offsets the penalty for shooting when Advancing if you are close enough.

How a is rule can't counteract another rule an argument against blank 5+ to hit when.the game is so full of them?
A widespread example, AoC negating -1ap when speed waagh is about -1ap. Emperor's children ignoring to hit modifiers (all at BS3+!). Daemons with a save that ignores all ap. Etc etc etc...

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
How a is rule can't counteract another rule an argument against blank 5+ to hit when.the game is so full of them?
A widespread example, AoC negating -1ap when speed waagh is about -1ap. Emperor's children ignoring to hit modifiers (all at BS3+!). Daemons with a save that ignores all ap. Etc etc etc...

I've been very outspoken on AoC being bad design and hating the EC army rule.

Daemons have always kinda ignored AP when you think about it though, but now there's a difference in their save thanks to the brilliant GW design of creating really big guns that ignore all saves.

We could ask that those be removed, rather than continue a downward spiral.

Frankly speaking, GW have continued their usual edition wacky rule stacking and mid-edition design paradigm shifts that it's easier to just reboot the rules in 10th rather than the current band aid system they're using. The genie is out of the bottle and most people would be upset if they reversed a lot of their poor rules implementations. If they address this disproportionate problem for modifiers in the reboot, I don't think Orks need the proposed rule from the OP or other posters, but assuming the rules stay the same, it's definitely something that should be considered adding into the balance dataslate.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
We could ask that those be removed, rather than continue a downward spiral.

But asking Orks to ignore modifiers is the same downward spiral. The actual solution is to not just make Orks BS5+ no matter the role. Hell, you think it was accidental Flash Gitz have a Heavy Weapon to bring them back down to BS5+?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
We could ask that those be removed, rather than continue a downward spiral.

But asking Orks to ignore modifiers is the same downward spiral. The actual solution is to not just make Orks BS5+ no matter the role. Hell, you think it was accidental Flash Gitz have a Heavy Weapon to bring them back down to BS5+?

It seems there was a misunderstanding. I agree with you. I'm tired of the constant one upsmanship of the rules in 40k.

Ignore -1 feels like a patch not an improvement. How about buffing dakka weapons with +1 to hit at 1/2 range to make up for how they are just a lesser version of rapid fire currently (and then transition heavy weapons over to dakka)?

 JNAProductions wrote:

]And Twisted Helix gives +1 Strength-making it useless on a normally S3 model targeting a T5 or T8 model.
Ultramarines let you fall back and shoot-so not very useful against Tau or other armies that don't close to melee.
Hell, Dark Angels get permanent transhuman on their Terminators-basically negating the entire Blood Angels trait against them in an all Terminator list, but that bonus is useless against anything S4 or less.

Okay not sure what you were trying to prove with this. None of these are flat out canceled.

Moving from S3 to S4 is one of the biggest jumps in the game. I don’t think there’s any army that consists only of T5 and T8. Plus the Genestealer Cults have several weapons that further modify strength too.

Contrary to popular belief every army can have units charge. Tagging shooting units remains a core part of the game. The ability to walk back from that tag is huge. Even Tau have units that want to be in close combat and there’s plenty of times people charge with chaffe units to tie up something like eradicators.

Only all deathwing lists get permanent transhuman. Even then, there’s still T7 dreadnoughts in those lists as well. All of these cases are examples of the abilities being less optimal at best rather than just completely ignored.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
In reality, Dakka weapons should've been Assault Weapons that just gained shots as you closed the distance. Letting them run and gun would've been too broken though per GW "playtesters" and "rules writers"

Yes, the same idio......sorry I mean playtesters that thought T5 would be so broken that ork boyz needed a price bump on top of gutting their morale, on top of gutting their buffs, on top of gutting their synergies and on top of gutting their stratagems.

To be rather blunt, GW Play testers know less about the ork army than my 3 year old.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

Okay not sure what you were trying to prove with this. None of these are flat out canceled.

except where it is? Take a Speed WAAAGH ork army, the biggest buff is -1AP on all your weapons, AoC completely negates this benefit. Congrats a 100% nerf to a feature of an army. If your counter argument is going to be "Well that is only a specific playstyle suffering...yep, just like -1 to hit is usually a specific play style. if your next argument is that it impacts some units! yeah...and? That is most of the game at this point, its the rock/paper/scissors nature of the game. If i take a super heavy list and run headlong into an Anti-tank list...well i've usually lost before the first dice roll haven't I?

or how about facing off against a harlequins army if youve brought an army with lots of -AP weapons? Congrats all of your -AP is wasted, so you just paid points for weapons which lost their key value, AP. "But but, the whole weapon hasn't been nerfed! Just the AP! so its fair!" ok cool counter point, and your defensive profiles still work against Orkz ignoring -1 to hit penalties, you still have toughness and armor/invuln/FNP to rely on.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Moving from S3 to S4 is one of the biggest jumps in the game. I don’t think there’s any army that consists only of T5 and T8. Plus the Genestealer Cults have several weapons that further modify strength too.

I mean you can be pedantic and say Grots so therefore I am wrong, but since they only make up usually 60-90pts of any ork list i'm going to say....Orkz are a T5+ army.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Contrary to popular belief every army can have units charge. Tagging shooting units remains a core part of the game. The ability to walk back from that tag is huge. Even Tau have units that want to be in close combat and there’s plenty of times people charge with chaffe units to tie up something like eradicators.

Yeah, Tau can absolutely tag a Smurf unit in CC...most of the time that unit is dead before the next turn or its more beneficial for the Marine player to keep that Tau unit in CC, so please keep making bad points to try and prove the point.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Only all deathwing lists get permanent transhuman. Even then, there’s still T7 dreadnoughts in those lists as well. All of these cases are examples of the abilities being less optimal at best rather than just completely ignored.

"but but....they might also take T7 Dreadnoughts!" strong argument bud.


To summarize all of your points, Feth orkz, my -1 to hit is too important to be ignored against their 5+ to hit army.

Christ almighty, its ridiculous isn't it? I sit here and make a valid point that most ork shooting is already anemic and that -1 to hit is an insanely hard nerf to orkz since we don't have much buffs to hit/shooting in general and that the -1 is such a hard nerf that it unfairly targets ork shooting. What did I get for counter arguments? Some guy coming in saying ork shooting is top tier, and now you kiwi saying its not fair that some units/armies pay points for -1 to hit and orks shouldn't be able to ignore that.

SemperMortis wrote:

Christ almighty, its ridiculous isn't it? I sit here and make a valid point that most ork shooting is already anemic and that -1 to hit is an insanely hard nerf to orkz since we don't have much buffs to hit/shooting in general and that the -1 is such a hard nerf that it unfairly targets ork shooting. What did I get for counter arguments? Some guy coming in saying ork shooting is top tier, and now you kiwi saying its not fair that some units/armies pay points for -1 to hit and orks shouldn't be able to ignore that.

It seems like this is making you a little upset. Relax, unclench your jaw, and take a deep breath my friend. Rather than circle the drain around the difference between facts and concepts versus pedantry, let’s turn this into something productive.

The problem you state is that ork shooting is bad and is disproportionately effected by a -1 to hit penalty, right? I can generally agree with this assessment. Even the early success from speed waaaghs was more about blocking and spamming than shooting. My point is that the -1 to hit ability is a benefit to playing a faction. If the rules are going to give bonuses based on fluff preferences and color scheme, then everyone should be able to use it. No one wants to be forced into playing another faction for rules reasons. In total then our problem is how do we make ork shooting better without invalidating rules for other groups or requiring a shovel worth of dice.

If this is the case the answer seems to be that we should buff something about the orks rather than invalidate other rules. The simple solution seems to be that ork shooting units should get access to the targeting squig. You would need some more crunch to determine the points value for each unit but now you can let your shooting units hit a bit more reliably in general without invalidating anyone else’s rules.

So permanent transhuman is fine, completing invalidating any bonus S5 or higher weapons get…
But Orks can’t ignore some specific subfaction traits?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So permanent transhuman is fine, completing invalidating any bonus S5 or higher weapons get…
But Orks can’t ignore some specific subfaction traits?

If you’re asking, no that’s not fine either. It’s an incredibly boring rule when rate of fire becomes the only answer.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:


It seems like this is making you a little upset. Relax, unclench your jaw, and take a deep breath my friend. Rather than circle the drain around the difference between facts and concepts versus pedantry, let’s turn this into something productive.

The problem you state is that ork shooting is bad and is disproportionately effected by a -1 to hit penalty, right? I can generally agree with this assessment. Even the early success from speed waaaghs was more about blocking and spamming than shooting. My point is that the -1 to hit ability is a benefit to playing a faction. If the rules are going to give bonuses based on fluff preferences and color scheme, then everyone should be able to use it. No one wants to be forced into playing another faction for rules reasons. In total then our problem is how do we make ork shooting better without invalidating rules for other groups or requiring a shovel worth of dice.

If this is the case the answer seems to be that we should buff something about the orks rather than invalidate other rules. The simple solution seems to be that ork shooting units should get access to the targeting squig. You would need some more crunch to determine the points value for each unit but now you can let your shooting units hit a bit more reliably in general without invalidating anyone else’s rules.

Orkz have a subfaction that gets +1 strength on the charge, is it fair that when i fight against T2 and T3 armies I don't get my benefit? or is it just part of the game? How about as mentioned, permanent transhuman defeating entire swathes of my armies benefits? No still not bad? ok so then its specifically that orkz shouldn't be able to negate a specific sub faction's ability even though by doing so they don't become great at shooting, merely ok. I mean, there are elite units in the game whose rule is that they ignore all -hit modifiers entirely, and they hit on 2s or 3s. That isn't broken or bad right?

And I sit here trying to think of which faction gets -1 to hit across the board and I can't think of them. So which is it?

at the end of the day your argument isn't persuasive at all. Its "that isn't fair to this one subfaction of this one army and therefore no" but its ok for the entire armys shooting to be irrelevant because reasons.

And as far as targeting squigs go...no. They used to be a 5ppm upgrade and weren't taken because the unit was crap and the benefit was crap. If you want to pay 5ppm more for ork shooting you should probably just set up your army, shake your opponents hand and congratulate them on the win.

Or give Orks +1 to hit when in a group of 20 to reflect the wall of bullets they would be firing. Sheer volume of fire and you will absolutely hit stuff

warpedpig wrote:
Or give Orks +1 to hit when in a group of 20 to reflect the wall of bullets they would be firing. Sheer volume of fire and you will absolutely hit stuff

That would affect...

Beast Snaggas, max size only.
Boys, 20-30 man blobs.
Grots, 20-30 blobs.

And that's it.

leopard wrote:
maybe change how "-1 to hit" actually works?

e.g. roll to hit as usual, without modifiers, count how many hits you have, discard 1/6 of them - group the hits into groups of six, with one odd group for whats left, remove one hit from each group to a minimum of one hit left, then roll for damage

now Orks loose 1/6 of their hits, Marines loose 1/6 of their hits, everyone looses 1/6 of their hits.

I have 3 Eliminators. One misses naturally, 2 hit, and I lose one hit. I did not lose 1/6 of my hits, I lost 1/2 of my hits.

To be fair though, if you're relying on shooting for doing some reliable damage with orks, you're doing something wrong.

 skchsan wrote:
To be fair though, if you're relying on shooting for doing some reliable damage with orks, you're doing something wrong.

I wouldn't go that far. Orks have generally been able to field very strong shooting lists for the last couple of codexes.

Mek guns, deffkoptas, all of the buggies, dakkajets, wazbomms, Grot Tanks, kill tanks, killa kans, tankbustas, shokk attack guns, etc have all had a place as premier Ork shooting units.

The list that made everyone lose their minds over Orks was a Freebootas buggy/jet spam that was almost entirely a shooting list.

Ork shooting excels at either drowning the opponent in shots and overwhelming them (old school 18 mek gun lists, loota bombs, etc), or capitalising on the few sources of +1 to hit we have (Freebootas, the old strat for exploding 5s, etc) to literally double our shooting output.

Ork shooting is very effective when it goes off, it's just really countered by -1 to hit because it halves our damage output.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
To be fair though, if you're relying on shooting for doing some reliable damage with orks, you're doing something wrong.

I wouldn't go that far. Orks have generally been able to field very strong shooting lists for the last couple of codexes.

Mek guns, deffkoptas, all of the buggies, dakkajets, wazbomms, Grot Tanks, kill tanks, killa kans, tankbustas, shokk attack guns, etc have all had a place as premier Ork shooting units.

The list that made everyone lose their minds over Orks was a Freebootas buggy/jet spam that was almost entirely a shooting list.

Ork shooting excels at either drowning the opponent in shots and overwhelming them (old school 18 mek gun lists, loota bombs, etc), or capitalising on the few sources of +1 to hit we have (Freebootas, the old strat for exploding 5s, etc) to literally double our shooting output.

Ork shooting is very effective when it goes off, it's just really countered by -1 to hit because it halves our damage output.

But you're mostly talking about shooty units that are designed to be shooty, which for most part is reflected on the units with BS+4 or have some kind of special rules to boost its BS/to hit roll results. I mean, I can potentially see things like rokkits getting a special rule (something like "heatseeker - ignore up to 1 minus to hit").

And here we sit, months later and ork shooting is still basically not appearing in any competitive lists.

 skchsan wrote:
But you're mostly talking about shooty units that are designed to be shooty, which for most part is reflected on the units with BS+4 or have some kind of special rules to boost its BS/to hit roll results. I mean, I can potentially see things like rokkits getting a special rule (something like "heatseeker - ignore up to 1 minus to hit").

I'm not sure what you're saying here, should units designed to be choppy be shooty too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
To be fair though, if you're relying on shooting for doing some reliable damage with orks, you're doing something wrong.

Not really. Orks should be able to do a shooty list. They should be able to do a choppy list. They should be able to do (relatively) high and low model count. They've long fluffed Orks as interested in loud noises (Shooty) getting stuck in (Choppy) and speed (low model count)

I figure that we could play around with the Ork statline a bit. More shooting oriented Orks could take a page from one of those ideas and get plus 1+ to hit when within Dakka Range, we could also add bonuses for sheer shot count and give orks a sort of table when shooting more than say 15 shots per unit, and have them start gaining some small bonuses as you get into some of the absurd shot count squads like full Loota Squads or near full strength Shoota Boy squads.

But fundamentally orks are poorly served on many of their shooting units by the lack of a suppression mechanic. Imagine if laying down a hail of bullets on a target made it easier for another unit to charge, or perhaps inflicted a debuff to enemy infantry shooting counter balanced by a slight durability buff representing them taking cover. Yes the average ork boy is inaccurate, but standing in the open against 30 Shoota Boyz all opening fire on you is stupid.