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Aecus Decimus wrote: Talking about marines being elite is silly when marines (and spiky marines) are 75% of the game. However you measure eliteness a faction will never feel elite when it is by definition average. No matter how much you stat creep marines the fact that everyone else's marine army gets the same buffs as yours means you're all still in the same relative position, while anything that can't compete with marines just isn't played.
Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
Dudeface wrote: Ah yes, grots are very elite, physical weaker than even a base human, even more cowardly, armed with the ork equivalent of a glock at best, wearing a loin cloth and largely at best average at actually landing a hit, be it at range or melee and childlike in stature.
How can any of the universes mightiest warriors possibly stand against them.
Feel free to replace the snark with a plan for winning as the Knight player. If you can. They don't even need to shoot the Knight, they can ignore it. Even Space Marines can't do that.
It's not about winning, which is exactly the problem you have.
Genuinely, for the sake of the discussion it's probably best to just ignore Breton at this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 15:18:50
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Aecus Decimus wrote: Talking about marines being elite is silly when marines (and spiky marines) are 75% of the game. However you measure eliteness a faction will never feel elite when it is by definition average. No matter how much you stat creep marines the fact that everyone else's marine army gets the same buffs as yours means you're all still in the same relative position, while anything that can't compete with marines just isn't played.
Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
Yep. Although I don't know that it can be done with mechanics alone, GW also needs to stop making marines the focus of everything. Even when marines don't have the best competitive win rate they're still the most common army because they're the face of the IP. They're the focus of all of GW's marketing, they get the most novels, they get the most model releases, they're at least one side of every starter set, etc. As long as GW treats non-marines as NPC factions it's going to show in their on-table popularity.
Because they aren't. A terminator shouldn't be better than a Lychguard, wraith construct, Custodian, kastellan robot, Crisis suit or meganob.
That sounds familiar.
I think folk have misinterpreted my post.
First, I’m arguing Elites need to feel elite compared to their standard troops.
The example I gave was when Terminators felt like that. It wasn’t a claim Terminators should be the pinnacle of all choices from all Elite FOC Slots.
Hmm, don’t they? I mean aside from the Primaris debacle that muddled the identity of many Marine units, overall Terminators are superior to other Marines in CC and durability, and their base shooting weapon also is literally two of shooting guns normal Marines have.
Which elites within factions are you thinking of that don’t feel superior to base troops? (Death Guard in 8th had that problem when all their higher ups, possessed and spawn lost their Mark of Nurgle and were downgraded from Plague Marines, but other than that?)
Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
agreed, but the problem is that space marine players don't have these options in their codex, and space marines are the most popular army.
so even if every non-marine army (for argument's sake) is now a horde army, you're still gonna be facing 30-40% (stats out of my ass) space marines
Because they aren't. A terminator shouldn't be better than a Lychguard, wraith construct, Custodian, kastellan robot, Crisis suit or meganob.
That sounds familiar.
I think folk have misinterpreted my post.
First, I’m arguing Elites need to feel elite compared to their standard troops.
The example I gave was when Terminators felt like that. It wasn’t a claim Terminators should be the pinnacle of all choices from all Elite FOC Slots.
Hmm, don’t they? I mean aside from the Primaris debacle that muddled the identity of many Marine units, overall Terminators are superior to other Marines in CC and durability, and their base shooting weapon also is literally two of shooting guns normal Marines have.
Which elites within factions are you thinking of that don’t feel superior to base troops? (Death Guard in 8th had that problem when all their higher ups, possessed and spawn lost their Mark of Nurgle and were downgraded from Plague Marines, but other than that?)
It’s more a general thing. Brace yourself for curmudgeonly grumps.
See, bAcK iN mY dAy Elite Units were terrors of the battlefield. Yes I do mean 2nd Ed. Yes my wonky text is tongue in cheek about this very post.
For instance, Wraithguard. The Wraithcannon was horrible against everything - and the Wraithguard themselves were, theoretically, invincible. They had an armour value, and provided your opponent rolled poorly for damage, they just got back up again.
Carnifex were similarly nasty. Genestealers too.
2nd Ed Howling Banshees I still have nightmares about. Warp Spiders too.
Basically ever army had worthy Elite Units - when compared to their baseline units. And it’s that comparison I feel is lacking these days.
I’d argue that, from my limited perspective? 3.5 Chaos Chosen were the last, great, elite unit. Each one customisable. They could be a massive points sink, but you had the opportunity for a Proper Swiss Army Knife Unit. Not every model would be effective against every foe. But if you took your time, thought it out? There was basically nothing they couldn’t pose not just a credible but immediate threat to.
I freely admit this is my newfound Sad Grumpy Old Man coming through. And I’m far from familiar with the modern game. But it’s still something I sorely miss
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I think elite infantry can still be very nasty particularly with all the buffs handed out but its just less noticeable now. Deleting units in one round of attack is expected so when they do something like that it isnt so game defining. They also tend to die fast if focussed on (as is modern 40k) so often don't have time to do anything. At least thats my reading of the current edition based on a handful of games and many battle reports in the background as I do other stuff
Because they aren't. A terminator shouldn't be better than a Lychguard, wraith construct, Custodian, kastellan robot, Crisis suit or meganob.
That sounds familiar.
I think folk have misinterpreted my post.
First, I’m arguing Elites need to feel elite compared to their standard troops.
The example I gave was when Terminators felt like that. It wasn’t a claim Terminators should be the pinnacle of all choices from all Elite FOC Slots.
Hmm, don’t they? I mean aside from the Primaris debacle that muddled the identity of many Marine units, overall Terminators are superior to other Marines in CC and durability, and their base shooting weapon also is literally two of shooting guns normal Marines have.
Which elites within factions are you thinking of that don’t feel superior to base troops? (Death Guard in 8th had that problem when all their higher ups, possessed and spawn lost their Mark of Nurgle and were downgraded from Plague Marines, but other than that?)
It’s more a general thing. Brace yourself for curmudgeonly grumps.
See, bAcK iN mY dAy Elite Units were terrors of the battlefield. Yes I do mean 2nd Ed. Yes my wonky text is tongue in cheek about this very post.
For instance, Wraithguard. The Wraithcannon was horrible against everything - and the Wraithguard themselves were, theoretically, invincible. They had an armour value, and provided your opponent rolled poorly for damage, they just got back up again.
Carnifex were similarly nasty. Genestealers too.
2nd Ed Howling Banshees I still have nightmares about. Warp Spiders too.
Basically ever army had worthy Elite Units - when compared to their baseline units. And it’s that comparison I feel is lacking these days.
I’d argue that, from my limited perspective? 3.5 Chaos Chosen were the last, great, elite unit. Each one customisable. They could be a massive points sink, but you had the opportunity for a Proper Swiss Army Knife Unit. Not every model would be effective against every foe. But if you took your time, thought it out? There was basically nothing they couldn’t pose not just a credible but immediate threat to.
I freely admit this is my newfound Sad Grumpy Old Man coming through. And I’m far from familiar with the modern game. But it’s still something I sorely miss
I feel if you do a friendly 9th edition game and say "nothing bigger than a dread or carnifex, please", elite units still can shine. Blightlord terminators are really tough to get rid of, especially during Aoc times Orks had a hard time breaking most Marine armours.
I think the problem here doesn't lie within bad elites but with the high lethality overall. Most things die pretty fast which doesn't make for great memories.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I feel if you do a friendly 9th edition game and say "nothing bigger than a dread or carnifex, please", elite units still can shine.
Except when both players bring equivalent "elites" and now it's a game between average units.
Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
agreed, but the problem is that space marine players don't have these options in their codex, and space marines are the most popular army.
so even if every non-marine army (for argument's sake) is now a horde army, you're still gonna be facing 30-40% (stats out of my ass) space marines
To an extent I think that's a problem that will always exist in some way. Space Marines are just popular. That said, there have been times in the game when Space Marines weren't as common, and other times when literally all I saw at the local club was Space Marines. So there is at least some precedent of conditions which saw more faction diversity.
Hordes need help. Some amount of rebalancing will help that, and probably some encouragement on the presentation can help as well. And probably some good army deals would help as well, honestly. I can't tell you how many times I thought about playing Guard, and then the price tag put me off.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I feel if you do a friendly 9th edition game and say "nothing bigger than a dread or carnifex, please", elite units still can shine.
Except when both players bring equivalent "elites" and now it's a game between average units.
If the elites are at least expressed in different ways, that goes a long way in itself. Marines fearing for their lives against the onslaught of Genestealers is at least a different experience than MEQ vs. MEQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aecus Decimus wrote: GW also needs to stop making marines the focus of everything.
Yah. Big time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/10 17:15:31
Apple fox wrote:I was reading that conversation and I think a lot of it is less on what an elite is, and more a failure to manage expectations and power fantasy.
Both in the narrative of the game, and the rules of the game.
Insectum7 wrote:Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
IMO there are a bunch of things going on that converge to make elite infantry and Marines in particular feel underwhelming to those players invested in their fluff as 'elites'.
1. The fiction around Marines often centers on two things: Marines beating the crap out of random Guardsmen, Orks, and other cannon fodder, and Marines doing heroic protagonist deeds because that's what heroic protagonists do in heroic fiction. Then you play tabletop 40K, and suddenly you're on a level playing field with an enemy that for the sake of fairness is just as capable of kicking your ass as you are theirs. Bolter porn is power fantasy, wargames are not. Marines in fiction are often conducting lightning raids where they have speed, surprise, violence of action, and raw plot armor against an often unprepared or outmatched foe; Marines on the tabletop are fighting a meat grinder against a peer adversary that is just as coordinated as them.
2. Related to the above, this is not a game of four squads and a vehicle anymore. Elite infantry die nearly as quickly when hit by anti-tank weapons, stepped on by Titans, or vaporized by Volcano Guns as anyone else. You are not facing down hordes of Guardsmen coming at you in small groups to heroically beat up. You are facing an entire army of Leman Russes with air support, and the level of raw firepower getting thrown around tends to devalue the elites, even if they can stomp all over light infantry. Plus, real-world factors like cost and painting time incentivize taking the heavy stuff over hordes of light infantry to begin with. Marines don't feel as special when they're fighting Tyranid Warriors rather than Termagants, and the pool of players willing to paint 200 Termagants is small.
3. Because Marines are so overwhelmingly common (both as a % of factions, and in terms of actual real-world popularity) they tend to go up against other Marines and more-elite-than-Marines factions (Knights, Custodes, etc) more often than they do against green tide lists. That means your chapter of Ultimate Badasses is showing up to an Ultimate Badasses Competition and you know what, even Arnold Schwarzenegger can look a lot less intimidating when he's surrounded by peers.
4. Again because Marines and Marine-adjacent are so common, they're the common targets for take-all-comers lists. They're the reason plasma spam has always been a thing, and why for five editions of the game AP3 was the magic breakpoint that elevated a weapon from meh to lethal. So any time you show up with Marines for a random pickup game, chances are the enemy has tailored to kill you.
5. And making that worse, the inherent skew of a T4/W2/3+ statline means that weapons with high AP and multiple damage kill Marines very efficiently, so there are obvious weapons to spam. I know you've harped on this before, Insectum; the move to W2 at higher points cost means that high-volume, mid-AP, mid-S, D2 weapons return even more points against Marines than they did previously. With basic small arms being comparatively less effective, there's more incentive than ever to spam specialized anti-Marine weapons, and skew is more rewarding.
It's like getting into 28mm moderns and choosing to play as Delta Force because you thought Black Hawk Down was awesome, and then finding that instead of facing untrained Somalis with little more than AKs, your opponents are mostly other Delta Force operators, Navy SEALs (even more elite than you), Spetsnaz, and tank battalions. Also, every scenario is pitched battle on open ground rather than commando raids, and everyone's loaded up with as much .50cal and armor-piercing ammo as possible because defeating your fancy body armor is everyone's goal. Even the one guy playing a Russian conscript horde has a gakload of artillery and air support tailored specifically to kill Deltas because half the shop plays Deltas because Deltas are in every starter set and Deltas are on every piece of Warhammer 2000 marketing because Deltas are the face of the franchise.
Your Delta Force troops are never, ever going to feel 'elite' in this context, and it has nothing to do with how they stack up against other troops in the real world, or whether they're balanced in game terms. It's just not possible to make the most common, de facto baseline faction, the one marketed to newbies and representing a majority of armies on the tabletop, feel above-average. They define the average.
There are a lot of little things GW could tweak to improve the five points above, but considering how Marine-centric the game is you'd have to really shake things up to make MEQs a minority and then actually feel special. And even then, the scale of the game is such that basic power armor can't really feel tough when a superheavy tank still reduces it to smoking boots. If I wanted to capture the feel of the Astartes animation I'd look to a smaller-scale game like Kill Team, but even then you need more mooks and fewer specialists with plasma guns (or Tyranid Warriors, or Custodes, et cetera) to get an asymmetric feel, plus a tacit acknowledgment that those mooks have to have an equal shot at winning or they're not going to show up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 18:49:18
The thing that needs to be remembered about the Astartes animation is that a squad of Marines basically cuts up a large number of GEQs mostly a piece at a time. Like five Marines shoot at 10 ish GEQs, and the GEQs take casualties and fall back. Then the same 5 Marines fight a guy or two at a time, eliminating them, in a quickly moving battle. All of that has been totally do-able in the tabletop game, particularly back when the game had more meaningful morale mechanics. The "Astartes Bolter Porn Fantasy" has been totally achievable in 40k, and it wasn't like some totally unbalanced affair.
But one of the ingredients to making it happen is ensuring that there's actually light troops around too. You have to make sure they have value. Not just winning value either (like holding objectives), but actual FUN value. If 20 GEQs all Rapid Fire into SMs from a good position, and the result is a single wound on the SMs. . . That's not fun.
Also, yes, on the tabletop the Space Marines have to contend with the fact that there are also tanks with tank firepower around. And the idea that Marines should be tanking AT fire needs to get knocked out of certain players heads.
I don't think SMs have to be in the minority to feel elite necessarily, though. But you do need ways to differentiate them from other troops. Back in the day, Frag+Krak Grenades, and ATSKSF meant more, and made some good headway into making them feel elite without just pumping Attack and Defense stats. It meant that even among other "Elites", such as Aspect Warriors, SMs had some meaningful differences.
There's a whole combination of things to improve for it, imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/10 19:29:19
Being elite is, in my opinion, being something +1.
For example, terminators are traditionally tactical marines +1, while the various veteran marine units are tactical / assault marines +1. Both examples are very little examples of +1 in that they have literally that bonus to several of their stats, and also have increased options allowing them to fulfill their chosen niche more effectively.
While some armies don’t have quite so direct a comparison, I feel this holds true pretty much across the board for most armies. Elites take something another unit in the codex does (often - but not always - from the troop section), and then just do it better. Often times with a narrowing of scope in comparison, making them more “elite” at that thing but less flexible in the process. Then, in terms of points, elites will pay a premium for this enhanced ability.
It’s also worth noting that elites tend to focus on what it is their army is known for, to some extent. So elites tend to focus and enhance roles which are “core” to the armies identity, such as orks and melee, but often times don’t encompass every role that can be fulfilled.
a_typical_hero wrote: A Knight is elite compared to a Grot. On the tabletop and in the actual background. If you think otherwise, you should read up on some definitions of "elite".
Except it's not a Grot, its a knight vs 100 grots. What's more elite a quarter, or 5 nickels?
a_typical_hero wrote: A Knight is elite compared to a Grot. On the tabletop and in the actual background. If you think otherwise, you should read up on some definitions of "elite".
Except it's not a Grot, its a knight vs 100 grots. What's more elite a quarter, or 5 nickels?
How does that even make sense as a comparison? Obviously if you compare 2000 points of each faction then no army or unit is ever going to be elite because the goal is that the game is balanced. It's a comparison that tells us absolutely nothing, except that you're really desperate to prove some kind of incomprehensible point.
a_typical_hero wrote: A Knight is elite compared to a Grot. On the tabletop and in the actual background. If you think otherwise, you should read up on some definitions of "elite".
Except it's not a Grot, its a knight vs 100 grots. What's more elite a quarter, or 5 nickels?
How does that even make sense as a comparison? Obviously if you compare 2000 points of each faction then no army or unit is ever going to be elite because the goal is that the game is balanced. It's a comparison that tells us absolutely nothing, except that you're really desperate to prove some kind of incomprehensible point.
You play a lot of 510 vs 4 point games do you? You think when people said they want Space Marines to play as elites/like the fluff they're talking about one guy giving the finger to 400 Gants and Gaunts?
Not one Marine vs 400. That’s silly and I suspect exaggeration for effect. But I feel a squad of Marines should feel more threatening and capable than a squad of Guardsmen - or even two squads.
That’s not to say 10 Marines vs 20/30 Other should ever feel like a foregone conclusion - but it should feel like an occasional triumph when you get lucky and take out the Marines with small arms fire. More that the Marines should be confident that they’ll suffer no more than acceptable casualties, than should walk out entirely unscathed.
The same for stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Aspect Warriors, Chaos Marines and so on and so forth, in case people confused the example given with cheerleading for Marines specifically.
Maybe the scale and scope of your average 40K battle has grown beyond that. As again, bAcK iN mY dAy a 2,000 point army was quite dinky. Yes a 2nd Ed Battlecannon May ruin a squad of Marines quite handily, but Leman Russ etc just weren’t as numerous, so provided I was careful I could mitigate the worst of it and prioritise taking those Battle Cannon out of the equation.
I guess I just want it to feel like anything which takes out Elite Stuff had to sing for its supper. Whilst it is of course amusing on occasion, nobody likes losing an expensive, prized unit to desultory fire.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/11 09:05:38
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Not one Marine vs 400. That’s silly and I suspect exaggeration for effect. But I feel a squad of Marines should feel more threatening and capable than a squad of Guardsmen - or even two squads.
Point for Point its closer to 3. One Marine squad should take 2 Guard squads with only a few red shirt losses (Bolter Marines, but keeping Pasanius, Learchus, Uriel, etc) 3 squads should be MAD.
That’s not to say 10 Marines vs 20/30 Other should ever feel like a foregone conclusion - but it should feel like an occasional triumph when you get lucky and take out the Marines with small arms fire. More that the Marines should be confident that they’ll suffer no more than acceptable casualties, than should walk out entirely unscathed.
The same for stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Aspect Warriors, Chaos Marines and so on and so forth, in case people confused the example given with cheerleading for Marines specifically.
Maybe the scale and scope of your average 40K battle has grown beyond that. As again, bAcK iN mY dAy a 2,000 point army was quite dinky. Yes a 2nd Ed Battlecannon May ruin a squad of Marines quite handily, but Leman Russ etc just weren’t as numerous, so provided I was careful I could mitigate the worst of it and prioritise taking those Battle Cannon out of the equation.
I guess I just want it to feel like anything which takes out Elite Stuff had to sing for its supper. Whilst it is of course amusing on occasion, nobody likes losing an expensive, prized unit to desultory fire.
Nobody likes losing an expensive prized unit, period - though desultory fire has long and often been the hard counter to the expensive prized units. One of the best ways to kill Terminators in 3rd was a mountain of flashlights.
And you do bring up a point that hasn't been brought up very much. Because the various armies (usually) have so many more units, its much easier to focus-fire specific units no matter the range etc. We've got more units, and no longer have to target the closest Infantry/Monster That rule probably has more to do with "elite" units going down faster than before - there's no rule and little reason not to shoot a unit until it stops moving because everyone can shoot everyone for the most part. How much less dangerous is that desultory fire from a half dozen units if it also has to be spread out TO a half dozen units?
Let me get more a more comfy chair first...okay do go on.
See, bAcK iN mY dAy Elite Units were terrors of the battlefield. Yes I do mean 2nd Ed. Yes my wonky text is tongue in cheek about this very post.
For instance, Wraithguard. The Wraithcannon was horrible against everything - and the Wraithguard themselves were, theoretically, invincible. They had an armour value, and provided your opponent rolled poorly for damage, they just got back up again.
Your point is inarguable. Back in the day, there were fewer factions and all of them felt very different. There were both internal and external hierarchies of elite units. Space Marines back then were an elite army and often difficult to play for that reason. Against most opponents, you would be outnumbered, sometimes badly outnumbered. However, your troops were extremely capable.
The Eldar were also elite - more fragile than Marines but also faster and more deadly (they had best small arm in the game, for example).
Your non-elite armies were the Orks and IG and the Chaos guys kind of hovered in between because of their composite nature (three, three, three lists for the price of one!). Both the Orks and IG did have elite units within their ranks, however.
Tyranids were the hordiest of hordes, but had elite fighters who made greater demons think twice about getting involved.
I think a combination of faction bloat and the explosion of the model range/unit types has diluted that. GW loves to hype every new unit as super elite, which makes the designation more of a participation trophy than anything else. Someone mentioned "gold paint" for everything, and that's exactly the case.
Another factor is that the desire on GW's part to simplify things so that everything has some sort of niche means you don't get anyone like the old Marines who were not the best, but were generally better all 'round than just about everyone else.
What that meant was that one didn't need to create ludicrous stories about Marine competence because you saw it on the tabletop. I'm not just talking about hitting well or whatnot, you could do stuff that's simply impossible now, like firing into your own troops to prevent them from being overrun (against Tyranids, terminator squads kept the heavy flamers in the rear, to clean the guys in front off if things got too intense). The short-range firepower of Marines was particularly intense and many a game turned on a tactical squad dumping mags from their bolt pistols almost in the faces of the genestealers.
So yeah, points are a measure (if they're calculated correctly, a big "if"), but ultimately it's a question of tabletop performance.
Not one Marine vs 400. That’s silly and I suspect exaggeration for effect. But I feel a squad of Marines should feel more threatening and capable than a squad of Guardsmen - or even two squads.
Point for Point its closer to 3. One Marine squad should take 2 Guard squads with only a few red shirt losses (Bolter Marines, but keeping Pasanius, Learchus, Uriel, etc) 3 squads should be MAD.
That’s not to say 10 Marines vs 20/30 Other should ever feel like a foregone conclusion - but it should feel like an occasional triumph when you get lucky and take out the Marines with small arms fire. More that the Marines should be confident that they’ll suffer no more than acceptable casualties, than should walk out entirely unscathed.
The same for stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Aspect Warriors, Chaos Marines and so on and so forth, in case people confused the example given with cheerleading for Marines specifically.
Maybe the scale and scope of your average 40K battle has grown beyond that. As again, bAcK iN mY dAy a 2,000 point army was quite dinky. Yes a 2nd Ed Battlecannon May ruin a squad of Marines quite handily, but Leman Russ etc just weren’t as numerous, so provided I was careful I could mitigate the worst of it and prioritise taking those Battle Cannon out of the equation.
I guess I just want it to feel like anything which takes out Elite Stuff had to sing for its supper. Whilst it is of course amusing on occasion, nobody likes losing an expensive, prized unit to desultory fire.
Nobody likes losing an expensive prized unit, period - though desultory fire has long and often been the hard counter to the expensive prized units. One of the best ways to kill Terminators in 3rd was a mountain of flashlights.
And you do bring up a point that hasn't been brought up very much. Because the various armies (usually) have so many more units, its much easier to focus-fire specific units no matter the range etc. We've got more units, and no longer have to target the closest Infantry/Monster That rule probably has more to do with "elite" units going down faster than before - there's no rule and little reason not to shoot a unit until it stops moving because everyone can shoot everyone for the most part. How much less dangerous is that desultory fire from a half dozen units if it also has to be spread out TO a half dozen units?
The old Target Priority rules didn't just lower lethality, but were another of the old rules that helped differentiate "elite" units from "less elite" units. High Leadership "elite" units like Astartes, Aspect Warriors, Necrons, etc had a much higher probability of passing the required Leadership Test to target a unit besides the closest than those with lower Leadership. It was one of the rules that actually made a unit's Leadership stat important. Same for the old Morale rules.
Being able to "play around" the Core Rules also helped. Good luck trying to lock 3.5 era Raptors in Combat, for example. Or force Loyalist Scum to run off the board.
Now, the only way gw has to show that a unit is "elite" is how killy/tough it is. It's what happens when the Core Rules are reduced to such a degree in the quest for "simplicity", which is then subsequently lost when more complexity is added (usually poorly) in the codexes, instead of being in the Core Rules, where it belonged in the first place.
Breton wrote: Except it's not a Grot, its a knight vs 100 grots. What's more elite a quarter, or 5 nickels?
You do not grasp the concept of elite, that's why your comparisons and arguments don't make sense. To the point where it is either trolling or embarassing. If it is the former, hats off to you, Sir. I fell for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/11 15:19:46
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Breton wrote: You play a lot of 510 vs 4 point games do you? You think when people said they want Space Marines to play as elites/like the fluff they're talking about one guy giving the finger to 400 Gants and Gaunts?
Not to such a trollish extreme obviously but yes, what people want out of elite armies is a low model count where each model is expensive but as capable as several lesser models. I have no idea why you think that "elite" means "my 2000 points has a 100% win rate against your 2000 points".
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I guess I just want it to feel like anything which takes out Elite Stuff had to sing for its supper. Whilst it is of course amusing on occasion, nobody likes losing an expensive, prized unit to desultory fire.
The problem is once again marine dominance. You make marines durable to represent their elite status, and now marine vs. marine games (which are the majority of the game) are tedious slap fights where neither side can kill much and the game is won 51-50 by standing on objectives with minimal interaction. So now you have to solve the stalemate by ensuring that everyone has access to effective anti-elite weapons, at which point the fact that marines are 75% of the game means that every army is spamming those anti-elite weapons as hard as possible and you're right back to elites dying quickly. The only way you can make this design concept work is to make marines a minority. If marines are 5-10% of the game and non-marine armies are mostly non-elite units all those flamers/frag missiles/etc come back into the game and when a marine army or elite unit in a non-marine army does show up it isn't promptly deleted by a wall of mass plasma.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/11 15:35:27
Kind of remember Eldar and Tyranids eating Marines for breakfast in 2nd edition, but I guess I was only 10 or something, so experiences may be skewed.
The problem with saying "eliteness should be in functionality" is that it leads you to "if I make the correct decisions (from the bigger list of options than my opponent) I should win". But who wants to play the NPC faction, where if your opponent plays correctly, you lose (or are significantly more likely to lose, dice will be dice after all)?
Tyel wrote: Kind of remember Eldar and Tyranids eating Marines for breakfast in 2nd edition, but I guess I was only 10 or something, so experiences may be skewed.
The problem with saying "eliteness should be in functionality" is that it leads you to "if I make the correct decisions (from the bigger list of options than my opponent) I should win". But who wants to play the NPC faction, where if your opponent plays correctly, you lose (or are significantly more likely to lose, dice will be dice after all)?
A big issue elite army in a lot of game genres is that they are often hard to play.
Make them to durable and they are bullet sponges, they struggle with good objective gameplay, Space marines where this I think focused on. They Are also supposed to be the introductory army.
I think GW has spent so much removing the luck from a lot of elite that a major factor in making them feel right is that luck.
A terminator could wade though lots of attacks, but one gets though and dead.
Now, it can be roll those 60 dice, and enjoy that one dead marine if your lucky.
Since wounds take away a major part of luck that I think is important to elite army, that durable nature can be taken away with a little bad luck. Why horde army are supposed to just pick up units, with little luck involved.
Of corse this depends a lot on how elite you think a basic space marine should be. As well as the escalating damage the game endures with now.
I'm actually really, really glad to see a thread on this. I was just having a discussion about this with a friend the other day.
To really have a meaningful discussion about "being elite"? You need to define the metric you're using to decide. For myself?
An "elite" army would meet the following metrics:
-Cannot fill out a Brigade or Battalion without breaking lore or utilizing multiple small units, even at high point value games.
-Better than average statline in 2 or more of the following characteristics on a unit: Ballistic Skill, Weapon Skill, Armor Save, and Leadership.
-Special rules that let a smaller number of models/units feel like more. Combat Squads immediately jumps to mind here.
With that said, the Marine Issue is always omnipresent in this discussion. Their representation tabletop v lore will always be an issue that is basically unsolvable without reshuffling how the main starter boxes are done...and a drastic, hard change to the army.
The problem is once again marine dominance. You make marines durable to represent their elite status, and now marine vs. marine games (which are the majority of the game) are tedious slap fights where neither side can kill much and the game is won 51-50 by standing on objectives with minimal interaction. So now you have to solve the stalemate by ensuring that everyone has access to effective anti-elite weapons, at which point the fact that marines are 75% of the game means that every army is spamming those anti-elite weapons as hard as possible and you're right back to elites dying quickly. The only way you can make this design concept work is to make marines a minority. If marines are 5-10% of the game and non-marine armies are mostly non-elite units all those flamers/frag missiles/etc come back into the game and when a marine army or elite unit in a non-marine army does show up it isn't promptly deleted by a wall of mass plasma.
Why should "slap fests" happen though? GW has absolutly no problems with giving armies both super resiliance and extrem fire power or melee abilities or both at the same time. The only change, that would happen is that if both marine players played in to each other with no tactics, no differences from playing various marines factions, would just be a very fast game. ending with the player rolling better or getting off the first charge or shoting first winning.
Anti-elite weapons in w40k, or at least those that actualy get taken, and not those that are anti elite in the lore, are always good vs everything. Plasma kills marines of various types, put wounds on vehicles, hurts characters, it even can put some last few wound on bigger stuff if the rolls are totaly skewed.
Marines on the other hand get this odd specialisations with deadly weapons in lore, that don't really do much to either horde or elite in game. Which then ends with marines taking minimal basic units and concentrating on the elite. And then the decision what ever an army is good or bad is mostly out of the hands of the player, because either the elite marine unit is undercosted for the core rules and the meta or it is not and then it is bad. Any marine army that can't run at least half of their army as those undercosted units will end up being bad, because of hyper efficient the good armies are at killing marines.
Plus I think the job of GW designers should be to make the marine army feel to the players as if they were playing an marine army. And they can do it, the custodes players, including the ones that don't play dread and FW spam, can attest to that. Marines should be a resilient and deadly force, with variety coming from the different factions and playstyles coming out of those rules sets. Right now lore or not lore, a squad of 5 GK termintors doesn't feel more elite, then 5 strikes,and something like paladins makes no sense as a unit under the point cost and meta that exists right now. What the GK player does get is the power armour interceptor spam with NDKS, the army that has been played since start of 8th ed. who knows maybe it would be better to just remove the strikes and GK terminators. Change the interceptors and paladins in to GK troops, with or without renaming, and let the GK players use the army that way. It would be a bit like playing a jump pack army without the WS or BA traits, but psychic powers on each unit.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: GW has absolutly no problems with giving armies both super resiliance and extrem fire power or melee abilities or both at the same time.
That's not how it works. If you have extreme defense and extreme offense on both sides then the two cancel out and what you have is average offense and average defense with bigger numbers. The suggestion was to have extreme defense, which means it has to be extreme relative to offense and you get slap fights.
The only change, that would happen is that if both marine players played in to each other with no tactics, no differences from playing various marines factions, would just be a very fast game. ending with the player rolling better or getting off the first charge or shoting first winning.
No, that would be a scenario where you have extreme offense and minimal defense. If you have extreme defense then you have units that can tank the incoming firepower and stay alive.
Anti-elite weapons in w40k, or at least those that actualy get taken, and not those that are anti elite in the lore, are always good vs everything. Plasma kills marines of various types, put wounds on vehicles, hurts characters, it even can put some last few wound on bigger stuff if the rolls are totaly skewed.
Yes, that is the problem with a marine-dominated game. If 90% of games were against horde guard with no vehicles you'd see flamers and grenade launchers instead. Plasma is only "good against everything" because in the current marine-dominated game the good targets for plasma are everywhere and the targets where plasma sucks barely exist.
And they can do it, the custodes players, including the ones that don't play dread and FW spam, can attest to that.
That's because gold marines are not 75% of the game like marines of other colors. If gold marines dominated the meta then they wouldn't feel elite at all because their reference point would be gold marines and the most common opponent would be a mirror match against other gold marines. They'd be the new average and every other army would feel like useless cannon fodder.
I personally think modelcount is a big factor in this. At least from my image I wouldn't have a problem with a 5 man Marine squad wiping the floor with 20-30 Guardsmen (as in some publications) IF the Guardsmen would outnumber them 10:1 or more (as they should from a lore perspective.)
But as nobody wants to build, paint or play against 1000 Guardsmen this would mean SM armies of 10-30 models Edit: to keep the Guardsmen in a handy range of lower 3 digits. At that point the "NPC factions" ready for being slaughtered would at least have the advantage of having the bodies to play for objectives while the Marines have to decide where they want to be as they can't be everywhere.
And that is kind of what Elite means to me. A Space Marine is Elite and a great fighter, but there are too few to be everywhere.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/11 23:07:56
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- though desultory fire has long and often been the hard counter to the expensive prized units. One of the best ways to kill Terminators in 3rd was a mountain of flashlights.
Both the Orks and 
~7510 build and painted
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