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Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

Thanks for the ethnic skintones articles. That is the type of thing that will make diversity more attainable on the tabletop.

I ran into the skintone issue with painting up historicals. I wanted some Gladiators that were from various parts of the Roman World. I did not know how to paint Nubians, Libyans, Iberians, Greeks, Italians, Gauls, Goths, etc. and be different. I had to figure it out myself.

These types of articles would have been really helpful and would have helped me earlier diversify my skintones in other ranges as well. Talk about "Being the change you want to see in the world!" Good job!

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Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Agree - it's a useful article. For me, not something I had tried to paint a lot and it's another string to your miniature painting bow and something to learn.

Lord Damocles - I am 100% on the box. I don't know if it was a 2nd edition release or 3rd, but definitely one marine on the cover painted as African ethnicity. I was working there around 4th/5th edition and it had been on the shelf forever.

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There's more inclusiveness in the Hobby now than a couple of decades ago, that's a given.

However, I feel also the scale of the miniatures plays a role why it's not diversified : simply put, you don't see enough details except when you look at them up close. I'm talking here about sculpted details on the miniature, not painting. With 3D sculpting and renders, you can more easily see these details but when printed / produced, the end result doesn't look as great on the renders.

A couple of decades ago, the tools used for sculpting meant that the miniatures were more "crude", and thus small details like a different face could easily be lost when producing the miniature in metal. Now we can translate more crispy details than ever, so it's easier. Even so, it's hard to differentiate a face from another at the tabletop's point of view unless the scale is big like 50mm or 75mm. The smaller the scale, the meaningless some details are.
   
Made in nl
Dakka Veteran






To be honest, I usually don't see a lot of difference for different ethnicities on the faces of miniatures. The details are too small for that and a bit of paint can make them look (almost) any group most of the time. Especially with my painting skill. The differences that are there might become visible on ultra-close-up photography or the like but not in the course of regular play. Hairstyles are, in many ways, far more indicative but often are covered by hats and other headwear.

That said, I do paint my minis to be of different ethnic backgrounds when it makes sense. For historical armies it can be a little more unlikely of course, you wouldn't have Native Americans in a 12th century Western European army for instance. But in fantasy settings everything goes. In Science Fiction even more so. It also makes armies look more interesting to me if there is some diversity in there.

   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Another late reply (: but, IMO, inclusiveness is lip service, if you ignore history, follow a narrative, or don't include culture.

Frex, we did have blacks in historically important wars, but they were often NOT integrated. Some Hollywood movies overlooked that.

In boardgames, BGG'ers are particularly sensitive about diversity (and we had that handicapped miniatures thread), but the solution tends to be sticking a minority into the party and leave it at that.

In RPG's, we have very little African culture. Yet, Legend of the Five Rings has both an RPG and CCG that delves hard into Japanese mythology. D&D had its Orientals Adventures supplement.

Magic the Gathering is the only game I know that had an Africa-centric expansion that went beyond skin color. Its Visions set is an impressive set that's based on a fictional African continent. (Unfortunately, years later, we'd have a tweet by a freelancer about his experience with WotC's racism: "Game designer Orion D. Black has left their job at Wizards of the Coast’s Dungeons & Dragons department, calling out the company for paying lip service towards diversity and change while exploiting BIPOC, especially Black freelancers, and silencing and ignoring criticism of systemic problems.")

This is a "rich white male" hobby. Again, IMO, you're not going to change it because of the "lip service" of including diverse sculpts, but fundamental changes. Frex, Eurogames have a higher proportion of female gamers than Ameritrash games, not because they have "female figures" (although BGG'ers are certainly demanding them), but because Eurogames have an emphasis on non-violent non-confrontational interactions, not that you can't find a female player who'd happily play a loinclothed barbarian carving up everything in sight.

That said, you could argue that the hobby *is* inclusive -- if you think that fictional races are not discounted because they're not real. That's definitely a controversy in itself, as, the farther you go from a European-style fantasy race, the more evil the race tends to be. Conversely, many players *like* to play unusual races, arguably giving players an opportunity to play diversity on their own terms.

Unless they play a furry. No way am I gonna let one of *those* in my campaigns.

EDIT: In the end, or at least for miniatures, it comes down to supply and demand. Create a reason for these for these sculpts, other than because someone else says you should, and they'll be made. As previously said, 3D printing should help, as it allows individuals to print miniatures whose sculpts are not in high enough demand for a larger market. I sure wouldn't mind more ethnic diversity in gaming -- perhaps more cyberpunk?

EDIT EDIT: With RPG's, you can -- and we should expect to have -- ethnic diversity when two different cultures are able to interact. A port which acts as trade between two different cultures would be an example, and I think that, with the great ability to travel in the future, futuristic settings should take diversity for granted (eg. Spelljammer, cyberpunk). With wargames, you have different fantasy races fighting each other all the time, and, in RL, you certainly had conflicts across race (as well as sects, political factions, socioeconomic classes) -- although I dunno if that sort of thing would be welcomed in gaming.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/12/24 13:43:05


Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in nl
Stubborn Hammerer






Struggling about in Asmos territory.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:

Even back when I was making my Ethnic Skintone article (shameless plug, yep!) I noticed there was not a lot of sculpts that reflected a diverse amount of cultures and ethnicities. BUT in addition to that problem the other problem is that in the mini painting/ sculpting/ designing hobby, we're all about exaggeration and contrast- so when does wanting to include other facial features become a caricature of those features and set back what you were trying to do?

Of course, now a days we have 3d printing and any independent designer can put out heads compatible with multi-part kits. But traditionally, I didn't see a lot of other ethnicities in the mini ranges, except historical and even then it was mostly the small re-enactment museum pieces.

So, I guess my question is where does wanting to share in a culture and show inclusiveness and cultural misappropriation and racial insensitivity clash? I sure don't have an answer, so please discuss!

You do know you can literally give your mini's the "skintone" you want right? Heck I've made my duardin have dark skin tones because I figured they would get dark skin for being around fire 24/7 smithing, welding, pulling gems from lava crust etc.

If you expect africa in space I don't know what to tell you though.

"Why would i be lying for Wechhudrs sake man.., i do not write fiction!"

 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






> If you expect africa in space I don't know what to tell you though.

Here you go!

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-black-panter-important-places-significance/



****

And, back in 1966, Wakanda's "techno-organic jungle" was created by Lee and Kirby themselves making it an early, if not the first, African-sf creation. "The Techno Organic Jungle was created by Black Panther after his travels across the globe. He managed to merge vibranium technology and the organics of a jungle to create a benevolent techno organic virus that allowed nature and machine to live in harmony. He used the jungle to test his skills against the Fantastic Four." : Marvel Wiki, https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Techno_Organic_Jungle

You're going to have to click the link to see their very Kirby-esque vision but Lee and Kirby made an African fictional world based on culture as much as skin color. And, again, this was the 1960's.

Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in nl
Stubborn Hammerer






Struggling about in Asmos territory.

 ced1106 wrote:
> If you expect africa in space I don't know what to tell you though.

Here you go!

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-black-panter-important-places-significance/


****

And, back in 1966, Wakanda's "techno-organic jungle" was created by Lee and Kirby themselves making it an early, if not the first, African-sf creation. "The Techno Organic Jungle was created by Black Panther after his travels across the globe. He managed to merge vibranium technology and the organics of a jungle to create a benevolent techno organic virus that allowed nature and machine to live in harmony. He used the jungle to test his skills against the Fantastic Four." : Marvel Wiki, https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Techno_Organic_Jungle

You're going to have to click the link to see their very Kirby-esque vision but Lee and Kirby made an African fictional world based on culture as much as skin color. And, again, this was the 1960's.

Heh..

Well anyway, whenever I read wakanda I think of the native (actually not really but whatever) american word for god. (wakanta ka) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakan_Tanka
Can't say I'm a fan of comics.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/12/30 16:16:15


"Why would i be lying for Wechhudrs sake man.., i do not write fiction!"

 
   
Made in gb
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Earlobe deep in doo doo

Thanks a lot for that article

It has been useful for me many times.

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