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Yeah. You’re essentially doubling up on your power needs. Chain motor needs power, as does the Powerfield. Such weapons therefore being unwieldy for most does make sense.

But, I would point out a Power Weapon could ultimately be in any form. So from game point of view, I’m happy to counts-as a Character’s Chainsword as a Power Weapon, provided it’s a valid equipment choice etc.

I guess I was a bit confused about power weapon fields- I'd assumed that the power field on "blunt" weapons (IE Thunder hammers, Power Fists, etc) enhanced the weight momentarily at impact. Thus this would use a more "graviton" type technology that would be at odds with moving saw teeth. But if the "super cutting" power weapon field that exists on swords, axes, etc is the same field as the blunt weapons than this begs the question why you'd put a field that cuts better on a concussive weapon?

The Thunder Hammer specifically charget up its field and releases it in a single big concussive blast. AFAIK all the other "power" weapons are just on continuously when activated.

Everything with chain is practically almost useless reality-wise.

cause almost everyone have a thick armor that can chip off the chain blade, especially if used for a long period.

 MoreAxe wrote:
Everything with chain is practically almost useless reality-wise.

cause almost everyone have a thick armor that can chip off the chain blade, especially if used for a long period.

While I agree in principle with this, we always need to keep in mind that space-magic materials from the futuar! can cover a lot of problems

That entirely depends.

Diamonds are super hard, yes?

But rare and prohibitively expensive and difficult to work with that it’s utterly impractical to use as actual armour, yes?

But. Diamond tipped drills exist.

It’s that resistant materials quandary. Between theoretical perfection and practical implementation.

Well, its the old balance between how Hard/Soft something is vs how Brittle/Ductile it is.

Hard stuff tends to be brittle and soft stuff tends to be ductile. Hard is important for resisting impacts, but if something is too hard it might shatter under an impact so you need to make it softer or pair it with a softer material so it can absorb the impact better.

This is why diamond armor would be bad. It would shatter too easily. It would be impervious to low energy impacts, but could only take a single high energy impact and then be useless.

Unless the diamond is somehow fused onto a mega super carbon nanosilkfibre underlay using space magic, with active molecular readjustment powered by waste heat scavenged from your armpits. Then it’s perfect

Anyways.

I still maintain that autoguns are canonically the worst weapon.

I speculated earlier in response to a fair point that SoB Novitiates may very well be equipped with them because one day, they’re gonna wield Bolters. Whilst the Bolter is a different beast entirely? The recoil and maintenance involved in using an Autogun is a better primer than the Lasgun in that regard.

Outside of that particular niche? They’re heavier than Lasguns, require far more maintenance, and their ammo is more laborious to carry and replenish.

 Flinty wrote:
Unless the diamond is somehow fused onto a mega super carbon nanosilkfibre underlay using space magic, with active molecular readjustment powered by waste heat scavenged from your armpits. Then it’s perfect

I mean, carbon nano-fibers are stronger then diamonds and made of the same stuff so...

Diamonds are stupidly common in nature. They're expensive because companies hoard them and market them as a luxury

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Unless the diamond is somehow fused onto a mega super carbon nanosilkfibre underlay using space magic, with active molecular readjustment powered by waste heat scavenged from your armpits. Then it’s perfect

I mean, carbon nano-fibers are stronger then diamonds and made of the same stuff so...

But carbon nanosilkfibre underlay is specially created out of space wax and misery by galacticus class juice spiders of gwrbathontrix beta. Totally different stuff. Made of space magic.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, its the old balance between how Hard/Soft something is vs how Brittle/Ductile it is.

Hard stuff tends to be brittle and soft stuff tends to be ductile. Hard is important for resisting impacts, but if something is too hard it might shatter under an impact so you need to make it softer or pair it with a softer material so it can absorb the impact better.

This is why diamond armor would be bad. It would shatter too easily. It would be impervious to low energy impacts, but could only take a single high energy impact and then be useless.

Which is why steel is so amazing, and was the best material for armour that humans had for centuries until the last few decades. It can be crafted to include both properties.

Agree re. diamonds. They could have a place in composite armour though, which we know the Imperium uses. Ceramite seems to be a composite material like a space-magic version of Dorchester/Chobham armour, and that is the main component of most power armour plates.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Anyways.

I still maintain that autoguns are canonically the worst weapon.

I speculated earlier in response to a fair point that SoB Novitiates may very well be equipped with them because one day, they’re gonna wield Bolters. Whilst the Bolter is a different beast entirely? The recoil and maintenance involved in using an Autogun is a better primer than the Lasgun in that regard.

Outside of that particular niche? They’re heavier than Lasguns, require far more maintenance, and their ammo is more laborious to carry and replenish.

Citation needed re. weight. Lasguns are not particularly lightweight even compared to modern weapons. That also doesn't explain why the Imperial Navy equips its elite with autoweapons.

I suspect autoweapons have a bit more hitting power and better penetration of cover, armour, and atmospheric effects than lasguns. Not enough to make the profiles different, but enough to offset the logistics advantages of lasguns for some users.

I also think it comes down to the STC's available- stubber/ auto guns may be more prevalent than Lasguns, just as Lasguns are more prevalent than bolters. Pre-heresy, Volkite was all the rage but the tech got lost/ stolen by Mechanicum. It's been pointed out many times how the Lasgun would be a god-send to modern Soldiers: Doesn't jam, doesn't need much maintenance, doesn't need solid state ammo, can be put through mud, water, etc and still work... and in 40k, it's "flashlight" compared to other guns. So by that token, I think Grotsnik is right, as we have modern equivalent of stubber weapons, and they have all these problems.

I forgot what scifi series I was reading, but the aliens were like "Wait, the Humans still use solid ammuntion.. Good God, why?!?!"

I think that in-universe Autoguns can on a per-shot basis be stronger than lasguns, and this is why they haven't disappeared. However the reliability of lasgun technology and the freeing up of your logistics makes it a better choice for the Imperium. Its just as easy to teach someone to use a lasgun as an autogun, but the lasgun doesn't need ammo constantly shipped to it. You just need charging stations to be provided, and the power packs can also be charged via solar/thermal exposure in a pinch.

Its the logistics benefits that makes the lasgun the main choice, not necessarily its performance in a vacuum.

The shipping space saved by using lasguns can be used to ship artillery shells, tanks, and other more important stuff. The gross tonnage saved is probably incalculable since small arms ammunition is by far the bulkiest thing you'd need to keep your troops supplied after food. You can cut it down to only needing to ship replacement lasguns and power packs instead of millions of rounds of ammo.

You also typically get more shots per reload with a Lasgun, meaning that shot for shot, it’s just a better weapon.

Any differences in power between Auto and Las essentially fall by the wayside when you consider the numbers involved.

Plus. Depending on the model of Lasgun, you can ramp up its output for more oomph at the cost of overall ammo count. Whereas with an auto gun, you need specific ammo for that sort of thing.

Autoguns have recoil. Lasguns don’t. Lasguns are much easier for troops to use effectively.

I think the autoguns still have a place because they can be produced at a much lower technology base.

I’ve also never been that convinced about the recharging by fire thing. You need a pretty massive fire to output enough energy to be useful. It’s a nice idea, but I think it suffers from GWs normal orders of magnitude problem

 Haighus wrote:
From a lore perspective, I inagine being assigned a demo charge is considered a pretty rough deal for all but the most gung ho or dedicated Guard troopers. They are very destructive but also highly likely to be a suicide weapon given the short range and large blast radius. As an extension to this, some penal legion troopers are used as suicide bombers.

JNAProductions wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Lasguns are shockingly good, yet just about every other weapon in the game is better than them. I can't think of one rifle in the game that is worse than a Lasgun.

There used to be Flechette Blasters, which were S2. They were also five shots and Shred (7th Edition-what Twin-Linked is now) so against anything T5 or down, they performed vastly better than a Lasgun, but as soon as you hit T6, you can't hurt them at all.

Also Splinter Rifles are worse if they're targeting a model that's T2-5 and is NOT Infantry.

Grot blasters come to mind. There are also Auxilia rifles from 30k.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Lore Wise I’m genuinely struggling here. And that’s because so many weapons are seen as cack because of their rules.

I’d have to say Autoguns are probably the worst, in-universe weapon.

Whilst still deadly, they introduce a bunch of logistical and maintenance issues its closest equivalent, the Lasgun, just entirely does away with.

Your ammo is heavier, and you get fewer shots per reload. And because it has more Worky Bits, they require a greater level of maintenance - though that doesn’t necessarily mean real world maintenance regimes, due to space magic and by no means directly analogous construction materials.

But if you can lay your hands on a Lasgun, why the flip would you want an Autogun?

Stubgubs are typically cruder than autoguns IMO.

Also, autoguns clearly have some advantages over lasguns because a few well-supplied factions use them instead of lasguns. Most notably, the fabulously wealthy Ecclesiarchy equips novitiates with autoguns. The Imperial Navy also typically equips auto weapons instead of las weapons. Why? It isn't clear, but they must have some advantages that outweigh the logistics advantages of lasguns for these factions.

There could be advantages like different ammo (armor piercing, dum dum, etc). The Navy uses shotguns in order not to damage the ships as it doesn't pierce the walls etc
For the Ministorum, it may be for religious reasons or the fact that they aren't allowed men at arms and thus not real military weapons ? Interesting point indeed

I agree lasguns are really good weapons, and have some key logistic advantages at an operational and strategic level (but not tactical). However, I think they are being oversold vs autoguns here.

Sure, there are crappy autoguns used by cultists and gangs, but their are also high-end weapons available. Plausible reasons beyond simply combat efficacy have been given for Sororitas novitiates, but what about the Imperial Navy? A powerful institution on par with the Imperial Guard and also supplied by the Departmento Munitorum chooses to equip its elite infantry with autoweapons:


Why not a laspistol instead of an autopistol? Aside from the logistical considerations (which matter less fighting onboard or from a warship and have very little bearing on tactical combat) the effectively recoilless lasweapons should be better in low grav environments. There is also a greater chance of fighting in void environments, where there are no atmospheric effects to impede the laser. So why do they choose autoweapons for this clearly well-equipped elite unit? Obviously autoweapons have advantages over lasweapons in this context that are not outweighed by the logistical advantages of lasguns. I think the general implication is that autoguns can deliver greater effect on target than lasguns, although not to a degree that they are different at the level of granularity of 40k. There is also richochets to consider, which may be both an advantage and disadvantage in a ship's corridor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:

Spoiler:

 Haighus wrote:
From a lore perspective, I inagine being assigned a demo charge is considered a pretty rough deal for all but the most gung ho or dedicated Guard troopers. They are very destructive but also highly likely to be a suicide weapon given the short range and large blast radius. As an extension to this, some penal legion troopers are used as suicide bombers.

JNAProductions wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Lasguns are shockingly good, yet just about every other weapon in the game is better than them. I can't think of one rifle in the game that is worse than a Lasgun.

There used to be Flechette Blasters, which were S2. They were also five shots and Shred (7th Edition-what Twin-Linked is now) so against anything T5 or down, they performed vastly better than a Lasgun, but as soon as you hit T6, you can't hurt them at all.

Also Splinter Rifles are worse if they're targeting a model that's T2-5 and is NOT Infantry.

Grot blasters come to mind. There are also Auxilia rifles from 30k.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Lore Wise I’m genuinely struggling here. And that’s because so many weapons are seen as cack because of their rules.

I’d have to say Autoguns are probably the worst, in-universe weapon.

Whilst still deadly, they introduce a bunch of logistical and maintenance issues its closest equivalent, the Lasgun, just entirely does away with.

Your ammo is heavier, and you get fewer shots per reload. And because it has more Worky Bits, they require a greater level of maintenance - though that doesn’t necessarily mean real world maintenance regimes, due to space magic and by no means directly analogous construction materials.

But if you can lay your hands on a Lasgun, why the flip would you want an Autogun?

Stubgubs are typically cruder than autoguns IMO.

Also, autoguns clearly have some advantages over lasguns because a few well-supplied factions use them instead of lasguns. Most notably, the fabulously wealthy Ecclesiarchy equips novitiates with autoguns. The Imperial Navy also typically equips auto weapons instead of las weapons. Why? It isn't clear, but they must have some advantages that outweigh the logistics advantages of lasguns for these factions.

There could be advantages like different ammo (armor piercing, dum dum, etc). The Navy uses shotguns in order not to damage the ships as it doesn't pierce the walls etc
For the Ministorum, it may be for religious reasons or the fact that they aren't allowed men at arms and thus not real military weapons ? Interesting point indeed

The doesn't pierce the walls thing is an odd one. No infantry small arms except maybe a meltagun can hope to pierce the walls of a warship, so it shouldn't matter for that. It could have an impact on small void craft like lighters and other transports.

Lasguns are not really known for their penetration either though.

Well, that’s an auto pistol, rather than an auto gun. Same lineage, but still a different weapon with different pros and cons.

Given they deal in void warfare, perhaps solid rounds give an advantage.

Las weapons for instance are noted to cauterise any successful wound. So if you survive the initial hit, you’re at low risk of bleeding out. It could still incapacitate you of course.

Autoweapons? Wounds were more familiar with. In void combat, I can see that being more desirable. Bleeding out in low atmosphere must suck.

The pros and cons of autopistols vs laspistols is surely the same as autoguns vs lasguns?

I'd expect bleeding to freeze very quickly in void conditions.

Not sure on it being the same thing.

An auto pistol is essentially a handheld machine gun, so a higher rate of fire. Whereas Laspistols are semi-automatic shooting one bolt at a time.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Autopistol#Known_Autopistol_Patterns

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Laspistol

I can see the higher rate of fire being useful for suppressive fire, and throwing as much lead at an exposed target as possible before it gets into cover.

And whilst I’m not claiming “therefore that model carries this one in particular”, there does seem to be a sub-pattern of Autopistols commonly issued to Naval crews.

Naval Pistol - Many varieties of Naval Pistol are in existence, the most well-known of which are those named for the Segmentum Fortresses of the Segmentae Majoris, such as the famous Cypra Mundi "Irontalon" pistol. Naval Pistols are heavy, large-calibre Autopistols characterised by their robust construction, which allows them to deliver solid blows in melee combat, should it prove necessary. Naval Pistols use special fragmenting ammunition designed to inflict minimal damage to ship systems while having a devastating effect on unarmoured flesh. Naval Pistols are only issued to crewmen of the Imperial Navy, and are never issued to the troops of the Imperial Guard. Nevertheless, Guardsmen often take Naval Pistols as mementos of a particular journey -- when they can get away with it. Naval Pistols hailing from famous starships or fleet bases hold great value in trade, particularly for the officers of some regiments.

A slight note of caution in that we are discussing the pros and cons of the different weapon type as if there are ctual procuement and logistics going on. The main reason the models are shown with those weapons is aesthetic. The navy models have autopistols rather than laspistols because the model design and approval process in GW decided that's what they wanted. Undoubtedly some ships will use lasweapons. Other ships will use plasma weapons, other ships will use a stash of volkite weapons they somehow managed to keep a hold of.

There’s still going to be a large amount of standardisation by necessity.

Yes I expect most if not all warships of the Imperial Navy will have some capacity to maintain small arms and create ammunition. And elite forces within that structure will have a wider selection of gear.

But everything we see in the background shows specific lineages of weapons being the standard across different wings of the Imperial War Machine.

Lasguns are plenty good enough (only looking weedy in 40K, because 40K is mental) and solve all number of logistical issues. Well I say solve. I should say Greatly Simplify, with a high percentage of the various models sharing common power packs, even if said power packs might offer slightly different shot and power output ratings.

Bolters are for the cream of the crop. Horrific weapons which really don’t bother with flesh wounds, making them suited to rapid and overwhelming assault.

Naval Shotguns are short ranged, but for fighting aboard ship or station, that’s not the drawback it might be on the field of battle, and is (canonically) made up for by the sheer stopping power of certain rounds, and the saturation nature of others. I’d also wager their simple, robust design is also favourable, as in such close confines you’d benefit from a weapon unlikely to jam. They’re also favoured by Adeptus Arbites because a single weapon can utilise a variety of rounds, bringing situational flexibility,

The Autogun doesn’t really fit as well into these categories. It shares some benefits of Shotguns (different ammo types) and Lasguns (decent range), but those two are just the superior choice in their defined niche compared to the Autogun, especially for mass deployment.

Hence whilst not being a joke weapon by any stretch? They’re simply not favourable compared to the other options.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But rare and prohibitively expensive and difficult to work with that it’s utterly impractical to use as actual armour, yes?

No, diamonds are literally common as dirt. As in, volume of diamonds in Earth crust is equal to that of dirt. Now, the big, clear, flawless diamonds, the stuff that is actually expensive? It's rare, yes, but 90% of the rarity comes from diamond mining companies hiding most of the output in bunkers and only selling a fraction of they find to artificially drive prices up. Otherwise? You can buy real, industrial diamonds in literal jars or bags wholesale:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-Factory-Industrial-Grade-Synthetic-Diamond_60671256403.html

Now, they are difficult to work with, yes, but scientists are working on making synthetic diamonds directly on the surface of tools (because making them stick on/to tools is kind of pain) and we should crack that relatively soon - then simply coating metal armor (to provide elastic backing to hard diamond surface to support/protect it) will be kind of trivial, and I'd bet it will happen in next 20-50 years, never mind 38000

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think that in-universe Autoguns can on a per-shot basis be stronger than lasguns, and this is why they haven't disappeared. However the reliability of lasgun technology and the freeing up of your logistics makes it a better choice for the Imperium. Its just as easy to teach someone to use a lasgun as an autogun, but the lasgun doesn't need ammo constantly shipped to it. You just need charging stations to be provided, and the power packs can also be charged via solar/thermal exposure in a pinch.

See, that 'just' is what kills the whole thing. You need a whole nuclear/fusion plant to charge these. Or maybe some sort of mobile, military generating guzzling tons of oil or promethium or whatever it runs on, which needs to be shipped too. Either lots of heavy, advanced infrastructure, or supplies to still make it run. Autogun bullets, in comparison? That's medieval tech, sure, low tech bullets will be far worse than what we can make now, and definitely inferior to future stuff, but you can resupply on even the most backward of worlds. If it has beginnings of industrial age, it can make bullets, you don't need atomic/space age infrastructure to do it.

And then you have issues with production/maintenance/repair of energy packs and weapons themselves, which I bet requires tons of advanced infrastructure and skills to do (especially, if, like in that dumb meme you put packs into a fire because it wrecks them and only allows you to charge a handful of shots per day, fire simply doesn't supply enough energy to do more than that). Autogun? Anything more advanced than medieval blacksmith will make you any spare parts you need.

To give you an example, in recent Red sea fight UK destroyer shot down three drones with air defense missiles but had to let fourth one fly really close to kill it with autocannons - because 'superior' missiles cost 2 mln $ a pop while autocannon HE programmable bullet costs measly 20$, if that. Oh, and the ship only has a few dozen missiles (and these can't be resupplied at sea, you need big friendly port with missile stores for that), but thousands of autocannon shells. Paper 'superiority' is not everything, logistics matter too.

Speaking of logistics, these drones cost 2200$ a pop. Guess who definitely won that engagement?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hence whilst not being a joke weapon by any stretch? They’re simply not favourable compared to the other options.

Autoguns offer psychological effects. Loud burst from up close is much harder to ignore than silent ray of light and will have enemies ducking for cover (which is also funnily why orks don't use las weapons and prefer bullets, in addition to supply issues above). You can also make sintered bullets hard enough to pierce flesh and flak suits but shattering harmlessly on hard surfaces like ship walls. Or something that only explodes against flesh, not metal.

Then there is the issue most space suits would be hardened against electromagnetic radiation for obvious reasons (which would include lasers) while they might just less resistant to bullets. Whipple shield against micrometerorites is about as protective as wet tissue against 7.62 mm. Oh, and smoke/dust filled corridors degrade laser damage, while doing nothing to bullets. And funnily enough, without pesky gravity, autogun would be just as accurate as laser in zero G. Are these advantages enough? Maybe not, but it's certainly not as black and white as you say.

Lasguns aren’t described as silent, and depending on your source seem to be particle weapons rather than lasers.

Certainly any source I’ve read involving the use of a Lasgun mentions a “crack” of ionising air.

Of course the background is massively inconsistent as to what Lasguns actually do!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not sure on it being the same thing.

An auto pistol is essentially a handheld machine gun, so a higher rate of fire. Whereas Laspistols are semi-automatic shooting one bolt at a time.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Autopistol#Known_Autopistol_Patterns

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Laspistol

I can see the higher rate of fire being useful for suppressive fire, and throwing as much lead at an exposed target as possible before it gets into cover.

And whilst I’m not claiming “therefore that model carries this one in particular”, there does seem to be a sub-pattern of Autopistols commonly issued to Naval crews.

Naval Pistol - Many varieties of Naval Pistol are in existence, the most well-known of which are those named for the Segmentum Fortresses of the Segmentae Majoris, such as the famous Cypra Mundi "Irontalon" pistol. Naval Pistols are heavy, large-calibre Autopistols characterised by their robust construction, which allows them to deliver solid blows in melee combat, should it prove necessary. Naval Pistols use special fragmenting ammunition designed to inflict minimal damage to ship systems while having a devastating effect on unarmoured flesh. Naval Pistols are only issued to crewmen of the Imperial Navy, and are never issued to the troops of the Imperial Guard. Nevertheless, Guardsmen often take Naval Pistols as mementos of a particular journey -- when they can get away with it. Naval Pistols hailing from famous starships or fleet bases hold great value in trade, particularly for the officers of some regiments.

I cannot find the source for the claim that laspistols only have a semi-auto fire mode, although I am sure some do. The Warhammer wikia is rubbish and has no in line citations. Lexicanum has the same passage, but the cited source (page 34 of the 4th edition rulebook) does not make that claim at all. It has probably come from somewhere (unless the wikis just copied the same headcanon), but I'm wary of absolutes like that. Some lasguns are also stuck on semi-auto fire only, and many have selective fire. I'd be very surprised if no laspistols had fully automatic fire as an option.

Munitorum manual page 62 states that laspistols operate strictly on a single shot basis. However I agree that the galaxy is a big place, so local variants probably exist that are tolerated with auto fire available.

Just the munitorum being disconnected writing your standard military manual. Not so untrue I suppose for once

The whatever emperor's childern used in novel saturnine to knock out communication system with sound attack.

262 decibel and humans were left alive? Pathetic. Guess it's got some magical field protecting humans as over 200db kills humans

For the record center of nuke used in hiroshima was quieter at the epicentre...

Knocking down command systems all fine and dandy but why save enemy commanders