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Which is cool, but could you perhaps expand upon that..?
Both Sisters of Battle and Sisters of Silence have boob armour, so what's the significant difference for you?
In my opinion, there's a strong thematic contrast between the two armies, which makes a difference here. The Sisters of Silence, alongside the Custodes, are part of the Talons of the emperor. They are meant to be representative and the personal forces of the Emperor - literally armoured in gold. They are supposed to be anachronistic and highly idealised. The IMAGE is extremely important in this context. The battle sisters don't have that as part of their theme. You can try to tack that theme onto them in your own head, but it's not 'part of the text' so to speak.
I also think the point tauist raised with the photo is important:
They have updated the sisters to be more modern and less tasteless - no sexy repentia, no pointy boobs, no lipstick, more variety. While it is an improvement, it's also kind of not? It lacks CAMP. The old art and models were, at their best, self-aware and campy. The campy-ness and exaggeration was important and characterful. Again, I think it works more with the Sisters of Silence. But with the SoB, it's like they are watered down enough to remove the fun, over-the-top camp, but not quite enough to fully remove all the old tropes. So I guess they just feel in an awkward limbo? It's a bit hard to put a finger on.
The thought process:
1 - Looking at the SoB minis I realized that the (boobarmor) is a very strong design element that sells the idea of a (female) unit efficiently and in a none contrived way, especially on a tiny figure. Because everything else is covered by weapons and details, not leaving much room to work with. I do not know how crucial it is for your project to preserve the female readability, so that might not even be relevant.
2 - Decided to shrink the torso and exaggerate the legs.
a) Raise the waist as high as possible, and enlarge the pelvis in length and width.
b) Hopefully the (female) shape will read
c) Cloth Tabard for the chest armor
d) Or an ornate flower design with two sets of tubes for the chest armor. Idea came from the classical SoB collar/tube that is around their necks, but enlarged and moved down to go over the chest armor.
e) Or leave the chest armor clean for the templar knight look
3 - You already started, it was a challenging to come up with something that could work around an existing shape. You can overlay your picture over the sketch, they should match pretty close.
a) Left - I tried to come up with something that will preserve the knightly lower "chin" guard you already sculpted, but honestly couldn't comeup with anything cool. ended up rendering a larger armor plate that covers entire chest, meh. Hope you can get some ideas from that. I like the rose design for the Besagew piece, that might not translate to miniature very well.
b) Right - I like that one better, it is simple tubes that cross the chest armor, could look cool.
c) Bottom - Ignore those, I though I was on something, but lost vision for it.
I am afraid I was unable to comeup with anything nifty for your girls in the time I had.
4 - I though to free sketch a SoB design
Braveheart inspired.
I hope my thoughts and sketches will give you some ideas or inspirations for your project. I will keep doodling and if I have anything cool, Ill send it over.
Hey!! this is amazing. Really thanks a lot. Your drawings are wonderfully rendered - I especially like the red armour as I intend to go for a highly polished red metallic paint scheme That last design is good enough that I would just steal it wholesale! Would be a great preacher or priest character - possibly a bit too different to be a battle sister? but would look great as an ecclesiarch member. Or a Crusader? Even a pious inquisitor - Many options...
1 - I do think the female readability is important to the faction. I also think it's an interesting exercise to try to keep that intact while removing the obvious boobs. Definitely agree with your proportion changes with this in mind.
2 - I did explore the cloth/ tabard look, and I think it's good for special units/ elite stuff, but a bit too much on every sister. I do like the tubes around the chest a lot - would work especially well on jump-pack or heavy units with large backpacks.
3 -
a) I am also very partial to the rose besagew (a new word I learnt today haha) I do like the large chest plate- the shape gives me an idea which I will reveal with photos later...
b) I think the position of the tubes is really interesting and would work well. It kind of implies the enlarged chest without actually having anything sculpted into the armour. Again I think something for jump packs or heavy weapons.
Definitely lots of inspiration there - thank you again. I'll definitely try out some new chest plates, and I am very tempted to just sculpt that last one into a miniature exactly as-is...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/18 18:17:23
So I am in the planning/ experimental stage in a new conversion and sculpting project involving the Sisters of Battle. I am making a lot of changes to their armour, and I am faced with the question: Boob armour - yay or nay?
Half of me says: No. Get rid of it. Dumb, outdated, and kind of embarrassing.
…The other half of says: it's iconic. It's an important part of the design language of the models, and to remove it completely would harm how recognisable they are as a faction.
I am interested in seeing what the consensus is! Very interested to hear any thoughts - especially if you are not a man [:
I would say, make it ornate and it will give character.
Lolz, I get it and agree 50%
That is Indian ceremonial attire, not battle armor. And ancient India put boobs on everything, temples, carvings, paintings, and armor.
https://fi.pinterest.com/pin/439663982367254343/ A bronze Bhuta ritual mask and body mask 18th century, Kanataka, India A&J Speelman Ltd
Mothsniper wrote: So when I design a female armor I reference history books, and Joan of Arc's armor was normal armor. I don't see a practical reason for a dedicated breast armor piece that is similar in function to a codpiece.
Joan was supposedly "... given a suit of "white armor" by Charles VII which was constructed at Tours in March of 1429 while she prepared for battle."
Was it constructed by an armourer who had ever made armour for a woman before? It was unadorned (as the team 'white' appears to mean).
If 40k armour is made for purpose, and decorated as most 40k Imperial armour is, wouldn't it be quite different to Joan's rush-job?
You are reading waaaay too much into my Joan of Arc example. When I reference Joan of Arc, I meant it as a general illustration of the time period by referencing a commonly known character.
If you want to see how real women goin to battle real battle you can research (PENSIC) Because the girls I know who battle, wear "normal" armor with out any boobs. I don't think the reason for that is ( they are doing a rush-job on their armor) I believe it is possible that that design is just not as practical as it seems.
1 - I do think the female readability is important to the faction. I also think it's an interesting exercise to try to keep that intact while removing the obvious boobs. Definitely agree with your proportion changes with this in mind.
2 - I did explore the cloth/ tabard look, and I think it's good for special units/ elite stuff, but a bit too much on every sister. I do like the tubes around the chest a lot - would work especially well on jump-pack or heavy units with large backpacks.
3 -
a) I am also very partial to the rose besagew (a new word I learnt today haha) I do like the large chest plate- the shape gives me an idea which I will reveal with photos later...
b) I think the position of the tubes is really interesting and would work well. It kind of implies the enlarged chest without actually having anything sculpted into the armour. Again I think something for jump packs or heavy weapons.
Definitely lots of inspiration there - thank you again. I'll definitely try out some new chest plates, and I am very tempted to just sculpt that last one into a miniature exactly as-is...
Interesting, perhaps a combination of plate and tubes. Cant wait to see what you have in mind Glad you find the sketches useful. On the last one, I would redesign it a bit, I like the (Iconstas - a wall of icons), chest armor but not so much the square shoulder things.
If you send me a side picture, I can do quick orthographics for the chestplate.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2024/03/18 22:28:52
Mothsniper wrote: So when I design a female armor I reference history books, and Joan of Arc's armor was normal armor. I don't see a practical reason for a dedicated breast armor piece that is similar in function to a codpiece.
Joan was supposedly "... given a suit of "white armor" by Charles VII which was constructed at Tours in March of 1429 while she prepared for battle."
Was it constructed by an armourer who had ever made armour for a woman before? It was unadorned (as the team 'white' appears to mean).
If 40k armour is made for purpose, and decorated as most 40k Imperial armour is, wouldn't it be quite different to Joan's rush-job?
I mean, they burned her at the stake for (among other things) dressing in men's clothes, so there's that.
Mothsniper wrote: So when I design a female armor I reference history books, and Joan of Arc's armor was normal armor. I don't see a practical reason for a dedicated breast armor piece that is similar in function to a codpiece.
Joan was supposedly "... given a suit of "white armor" by Charles VII which was constructed at Tours in March of 1429 while she prepared for battle."
Was it constructed by an armourer who had ever made armour for a woman before? It was unadorned (as the team 'white' appears to mean).
If 40k armour is made for purpose, and decorated as most 40k Imperial armour is, wouldn't it be quite different to Joan's rush-job?
You are reading waaaay too much into my Joan of Arc example. When I reference Joan of Arc, I meant it as a general illustration of the time period by referencing a commonly known character.
If you want to see how real women goin to battle real battle you can research (PENSIC) Because the girls I know who battle, wear "normal" armor with out any boobs. I don't think the reason for that is ( they are doing a rush-job on their armor) I believe it is possible that that design is just not as practical as it seems.
I had expected male-looking armour was still the norm back then, having never seen boob-plate of any sort.
So I am in the planning/ experimental stage in a new conversion and sculpting project involving the Sisters of Battle. I am making a lot of changes to their armour, and I am faced with the question: Boob armour - yay or nay?
Half of me says: No. Get rid of it. Dumb, outdated, and kind of embarrassing.
…The other half of says: it's iconic. It's an important part of the design language of the models, and to remove it completely would harm how recognisable they are as a faction.
I am interested in seeing what the consensus is! Very interested to hear any thoughts - especially if you are not a man [:
Thanks all
Split the difference. They're women, give them a woman shape: The armor should have a curve/cleavage, but lets not go putting eagle/cross/etc nipples on the armor.
Edit to add: What you're missign is the High Heels. Should the Sisters still be wearing boots with high heels?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/19 11:06:27
Breton wrote: Edit to add: What you're missign is the High Heels. Should the Sisters still be wearing boots with high heels?
I don't feel like any of them have heels in the new range? Unless I am missing something. The cannones Veridyan does, but that's firmly the in old style of sculpts. Greyfax has heels but she's not a sister.
Flinty wrote: Jill Bearup on Youtube has some interesting and entertaining videos on female armour
She has clear opinions on combat wedges
Ha have seen a couple of these before. Wonder if she has done any warhammer ones...
shmvo wrote: The Sisters of Silence, alongside the Custodes, are part of the Talons of the emperor. They are meant to be representative and the personal forces of the Emperor - literally armoured in gold. They are supposed to be anachronistic and highly idealised. The IMAGE is extremely important in this context. The battle sisters don't have that as part of their theme
The sisters were originally the elite 'wives' of a lunatic high lord / ecclesiarch, their armour was intended in lore to flaunt that position.
That said the original models and cover of the witch hunters codex very much had a 'novelty boobs on the front of a tank' look to them, suggesting the actual power armour is shaped somewhat in-line with drawings in this thread and everything over the top is cosmetic.
Speaking of cosmetic, whoever sculpted the old metal celestine appears to have had the idea that the long sleeves worn by the sisters were there to conceal exposed cables.
Ultimately, it comes down to taste. These sorts of costumes were used as a visual shorthand signifying "powerful women" in the 80's and 90's. They are certainly dated by modern standards, but there's plenty of late 20th century nostalgia to go around in 40k for people who like that sort of thing.
Ha have seen a couple of these before. Wonder if she has done any warhammer ones...
I don't think she's done a video dedicated to Warhammer, but Warhammer has popped up in various videos. I remember Sigvald making an appearance in one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/19 22:18:38
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Breton wrote: Edit to add: What you're missign is the High Heels. Should the Sisters still be wearing boots with high heels?
I don't feel like any of them have heels in the new range? Unless I am missing something. The cannones Veridyan does, but that's firmly the in old style of sculpts. Greyfax has heels but she's not a sister.
The idea that Sisters' power armor has high heels has no basis. There's the Blanche art on the cover of the 2nd ed codex, yes, and the resin model in homage to it GW did twenty years later. But the metal Sisters from back in the day didn't have high heels. Their feet were actually flatter than the plastic Sisters we have now, possibly due to casting constraints making pronounced heels of any kind impractical.
And modern Sisters have heels no more than Marines do, or to go with a real life examples, many shoes and boots aimed at dudes, including my own.
It's just one of those things that crop up when you gloss over the key features of a model and assume it features all the things you don't like, consider out of fashion or in bad taste, and so on. The actual metal models of yore didn't use to have them.
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Mothsniper wrote: So when I design a female armor I reference history books, and Joan of Arc's armor was normal armor. I don't see a practical reason for a dedicated breast armor piece that is similar in function to a codpiece.
Joan was supposedly "... given a suit of "white armor" by Charles VII which was constructed at Tours in March of 1429 while she prepared for battle."
Was it constructed by an armourer who had ever made armour for a woman before? It was unadorned (as the team 'white' appears to mean).
If 40k armour is made for purpose, and decorated as most 40k Imperial armour is, wouldn't it be quite different to Joan's rush-job?
You are reading waaaay too much into my Joan of Arc example. When I reference Joan of Arc, I meant it as a general illustration of the time period by referencing a commonly known character.
If you want to see how real women goin to battle real battle you can research (PENSIC) Because the girls I know who battle, wear "normal" armor with out any boobs. I don't think the reason for that is ( they are doing a rush-job on their armor) I believe it is possible that that design is just not as practical as it seems.
I had expected male-looking armour was still the norm back then, having never seen boob-plate of any sort.
I am sorry, but the armor in our history is designed with a purpose of deflecting a strikes away to avoid penetration not to emphasize maleness. Having boob chest plate would deflect a strike from boobs right into the middle of the neck or solerplex or stomach. No serious human who wanted to survive would wear heavy armor that is designed to redirect chest strikes into the middle.
Mothsniper wrote: I am sorry, but the armor in our history is designed with a purpose of deflecting a strikes away to avoid penetration not to emphasize maleness.
I used the term "male-looking armour" to reference the normal non-female shape, and nothing to do with sculpting or whatnot. I did not mention male armour was made in a male form, but that all armour at the time was that for use by males. The thousands of suits of armour I have seen (no exageration) have been made for battle, and were worn by males. The few exceptions were ornamental suits for both, or the few 'male-looking' suits for use by females, with nothing discernably different from the others.
We all know boob-plate is kinetically ridiculous, as do the artists.
Mothsniper wrote: I am sorry, but the armor in our history is designed with a purpose of deflecting a strikes away to avoid penetration not to emphasize maleness.
I used the term "male-looking armour" to reference the normal non-female shape, and nothing to do with sculpting or whatnot. I did not mention male armour was made in a male form, but that all armour at the time was that for use by males. The thousands of suits of armour I have seen (no exageration) have been made for battle, and were worn by males. The few exceptions were ornamental suits for both, or the few 'male-looking' suits for use by females, with nothing discernably different from the others.
We all know boob-plate is kinetically ridiculous, as do the artists.
Roger that! Thousand apologies then, I have misunderstood. Agree!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/03/20 19:12:24
Not as much as I would have liked to have gotten done, but I'm mostly done with the first attempt, at least with the chest area. This one inspired from the drawing on the left side:
Spoiler:
The 'spike' in the middle immediately put me in mind of a fleur de lis, and it's another interesting case where you can add detail that matches the original breast shape pretty well, without actually just sculpting breasts. There's also the option of simplifying it way down to a more flat, angular plate as you originally drew, and then having the fleur de lis as a painted detail or an engraving/ light embossing.
Nice!!! I see what you did there. I really did not want "chin" guard covered because it is a very cool shape that comes into a V and fits perfectly into the torso. And you saved the "chin" guard wile incorporating the spike from the sketch.
I am curious now how fleur-de-li can be reduced but still keep its fleur-de-lisnisity?
How do you keep the putty so smooth? I always had trouble sculpting smooth flat/curved surfaces with a sharp edge.
The coifs, I am also learning new words, The idea for the helmets I had is not the one that nuns have, it's the head armor "style" from the English soldier armor design from the Braveheart movie. I love the way the face is "cropped" tightly by ether the armor or vail or headwear, for me it just has that pious vibe.
So imagine the Braveheart helmet combined with the Sigmar-Battle-Priest iron-headband (like the one Luthor Huss has) What do you think of that?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2024/03/24 02:25:03
I also had this idea, but I do not know how it will look, it might be cool or totally silly. I also do not know how to implement that without distorting fleur-de-li proportions or altering the shoulder armor.
The petals to repeat the curve of the shoulder concave curve. Or the shoulder concave curve repeat the curve of the fleur-de-li petals. So if both would be brought together the two pieces would fit into each other's curves like a ball-and-socket joint fits.
I am throwing some ideas at ya what do you think of that?
As for boob armor, there should be room in 40k for all sorts of things. Marines with robes and purity seals everywhere, tactical marines with no flair, and everything in between. Same for the sisters.
That last design is good enough that I would just steal it wholesale! Would be a great preacher or priest character - possibly a bit too different to be a battle sister? but would look great as an ecclesiarch member. Or a Crusader? Even a pious inquisitor - Many options...
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Having boob chest plate would deflect a strike from boobs right into the middle of the neck or solerplex or stomach. No serious human who wanted to survive would wear heavy armor that is designed to redirect chest strikes into the middle.
I really did not want "chin" guard covered because it is a very cool shape that comes into a V and fits perfectly into the torso. And you saved the "chin" guard wile incorporating the spike from the sketch.
