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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I'm looking forward to the worst version of this, where Kill Teams don't get Oath of Moment, but also count as a Chapter Keyword and can't be taken with other Chapter models and ALSO trigger that rule that got errata'd in so Space Marines can't take Scouts if they have them.

I'm going to assume that they only have the 'Imperial Agents' faction keyword. This way, even if they have Adeptus Astartes and/or Deathwatch as regular keywords, they can still mingle with all other chapters.

I think you are correct: Agents will be their one and only Faction Keyword, and it will likely be the case that as a result, they do not get Oath of Moment.

But they will have the Astartes or Space Marine Keyword; even though it isn't their faction keyword, it may still qualify them for Enhancements or Strats if you add them to a Space Marine army in order to mimic the Deathwatch of old.

But you know, if the Kill Team Legend Cards are properly Keyworded, you could just field the Xenos Detachment. I think you'll be able to take what they now call a Kill Team (ie. DW Vets) as Battleline... But then you could take up to 3 Proteus, 3 Fortis, 3 Indomitor and 3 Spectrus teams... Blackstars for anyone who wants a ride, a Watchmaster and Artemis to lead; Xenos Inquisitor and Hench Optional. I know that's not a full selection of codex units- you can't shoe-horn in Dreads or Tanks (except those in the Agents dex, so you might have Rhino Access).

I am prepared for the fact that it isn't going to be perfect, but I think it'll be good, and I think the few modifications it might need (mostly vehicle access- particularly Valkyries for the Fleet Detachment, but also Land Raiders for Malleus and Xenos, etc).

 LunarSol wrote:
...and ALSO trigger that rule that got errata'd in so Space Marines can't take Scouts if they have them.

I'm a little out of date on errata/FAQs - what's this last bit?

 Dysartes wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
...and ALSO trigger that rule that got errata'd in so Space Marines can't take Scouts if they have them.

I'm a little out of date on errata/FAQs - what's this last bit?

The chapter limitations I.E. the aforementioned scouts and deathwatch, that were part of their unique detachments apply to all detachments now.

That will not be an issue. The Black Spear Detachment is what puts the limits on not being able to take certain units; not the army rule. The DW Army Rule is, currently, Kill Teams and will be the Agents Army Rule when the codex drops.

You can run Index DW as any detachment in the SM Codex and field any SM unit you want because you are not using the Black Spear Detachment. When the Codex drops you wont be able to.

When you bring in Allies you are not adding a second Detachment but adding non-codex models into your Detachment. The restriction on having only 1 Chapter in your army will not be a problem because Deathwatch will not be a SM Chapter ; they be an Assigned Agents unit

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I'm looking forward to the worst version of this, where Kill Teams don't get Oath of Moment, but also count as a Chapter Keyword and can't be taken with other Chapter models and ALSO trigger that rule that got errata'd in so Space Marines can't take Scouts if they have them.

I'm going to assume that they only have the 'Imperial Agents' faction keyword. This way, even if they have Adeptus Astartes and/or Deathwatch as regular keywords, they can still mingle with all other chapters.

It'll be interesting. Adeptus Astartes is the actual faction keyword, so I'd be curious how it would show up. I would assume you're right and it just doesn't, as it doesn't show up for GK or Custodes either.

As of the last errata though, if any model in your army has the Deathwatch keyword you cannot take Scouts, Tacticals or Dev Squads regardless of detachment or other keywords. That needs to be removed or the unit will still trigger it when taken as allies.

I do have a dw army with vets and primaris.
and asking myself if i need them to play as marines.

I have :
watchmaster
watch captain artemis
3 squads veterans
2 intersessor squads
1 squad helblasters
1 primaris dreath with plasma
1 dw flyer

how would i play this with the new codex??

Imperial Agents has everything but Primaris units and the Ordo Xenos detachment is what you'll use.

@skeleton

They still haven't told us whether DW Vets (which are now DW KTs) are Retinue or Requisitioned units.

In a 2k game, you can attach 2 character units (your Watchmaster and Artemis), 2 Retinue units and one Requisitioned unit. If you could fill all 3 of those with your vets (ie. Deathwatch Kill Teams), you'd be good to go, because all the other units can just use the Space Marine cards.

Now, there's a good chance that GW will make DW KTs fit one category or the other but not both... And if that's the case, you won't be able to bring all three DW KTs- you'll be able to bring two if GW calls them Retinue units, and only one if GW calls them Requisitioned units.

The only units we KNOW are Requisitioned Units are BSS and GK Termies; Priests and Navigators are the other two units mentioned in the paragraph, so it's implied that they might also be requisitioned units, but it's not explicit enough to be sure. DW KTs are conspicuously absent from the paragraph, but again, that isn't explicit.

You could field the Watchmaster, Artemis and all three DW KTs and the Blackstar as a Xenos detachment, so you'd get all the DW detachment rules... But unless there's something GW hasn't told us yet, you can't shoehorn in the other units as you've organized them in the list. However, if you can use Legends, you could build 3 Fortis KTs using the Helblasters and Intercessors:

Team One: 7 Intercessors, 3 Helblasters
Team Two: 7 Intercessors, 3 Helblasters
Team Tree: 6 Intercessors, 4 Helblasters

All this is assuming a) GW don't make changes to the Fortis Team Index card when it goes Legends, b) a Helblaster is just a Primaris Marine with a Plasma Incinerator, and c) as mentioned above, this assuming that Legends are an option for you.

As for the Dread though, I'm not sure there's a way to fit him into a Xenos detachment.

Veterans are definitely Retinue as multiple articles mention them being added to other Imperial armies.

 Gert wrote:
Veterans are definitely Retinue as multiple articles mention them being added to other Imperial armies.

Any Agent unit, whether Retinue, Character or Requisitioned, can be added to another Imperial force using the Assigned Agents rule, so the fact the DW KTs (ie DW Vets) can be used with other armies does not in and of itself tell us that DW KTs are Retinue.

I mean it's in this article:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/07/22/codex-imperial-agents-unleash-the-might-of-the-emperors-inquisition/

This roster has been expanded to help fill out your Ordo Xenos, Malleus, and Hereticus presence, with Deathwatch Kill Teams joining the RETINUE units.

 LunarSol wrote:
It'll be interesting. Adeptus Astartes is the actual faction keyword, so I'd be curious how it would show up. I would assume you're right and it just doesn't, as it doesn't show up for GK or Custodes either.

Custodes flat-out aren't Astartes - they're a whole different creation. Grey Knights are so different that they don't count, hence why they don't get Oath of Moment.

As of the last errata though, if any model in your army has the Deathwatch keyword you cannot take Scouts, Tacticals or Dev Squads regardless of detachment or other keywords. That needs to be removed or the unit will still trigger it when taken as allies.

Um, no?

If you're using the Black Spear Task Force detachment specifically, you can't take Scouts/Tacticals/Devastators. But if you're using anything from the core codex and including Deathwatch units, you can still use those other units.

 Gert wrote:
I mean it's in this article:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/07/22/codex-imperial-agents-unleash-the-might-of-the-emperors-inquisition/

This roster has been expanded to help fill out your Ordo Xenos, Malleus, and Hereticus presence, with Deathwatch Kill Teams joining the RETINUE units.

I stand corrected- thanks for taking the time to find the quote.

So back to our friend seeking advice, he would only be able to take two vet squads with Assigned Agents... So that's not a good option.

Which means your recommendation (ie. the Xenos detachment) is definitely @skeleton's best option.... Shame about the Dread. But do grab the Legends Card for the Fortis Team when it drops. For what it's worth, anyone I play with would let you use the Dread.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
It'll be interesting. Adeptus Astartes is the actual faction keyword, so I'd be curious how it would show up. I would assume you're right and it just doesn't, as it doesn't show up for GK or Custodes either.

Custodes flat-out aren't Astartes - they're a whole different creation. Grey Knights are so different that they don't count, hence why they don't get Oath of Moment.

As of the last errata though, if any model in your army has the Deathwatch keyword you cannot take Scouts, Tacticals or Dev Squads regardless of detachment or other keywords. That needs to be removed or the unit will still trigger it when taken as allies.

Um, no?

If you're using the Black Spear Task Force detachment specifically, you can't take Scouts/Tacticals/Devastators. But if you're using anything from the core codex and including Deathwatch units, you can still use those other units.

The latest Errata to Codex Space Marines applies the same restrictions as their specific detachments to any army including Deathwatch, Black Templars or Space Wolves regardless of the detachment used. It’s the very first item in the Errata document.

Though, whether the Deathwatch entry there will remain after the new book comes out remains to be seen, given they’re becoming Agents you’re intended to attach to any army rather than representative of a whole Deathwatch army. I suspect they’ll likely just take it out.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
It'll be interesting. Adeptus Astartes is the actual faction keyword, so I'd be curious how it would show up. I would assume you're right and it just doesn't, as it doesn't show up for GK or Custodes either.

Custodes flat-out aren't Astartes - they're a whole different creation. Grey Knights are so different that they don't count, hence why they don't get Oath of Moment.

As of the last errata though, if any model in your army has the Deathwatch keyword you cannot take Scouts, Tacticals or Dev Squads regardless of detachment or other keywords. That needs to be removed or the unit will still trigger it when taken as allies.

Um, no?

If you're using the Black Spear Task Force detachment specifically, you can't take Scouts/Tacticals/Devastators. But if you're using anything from the core codex and including Deathwatch units, you can still use those other units.

The latest Errata to Codex Space Marines applies the same restrictions as their specific detachments to any army including Deathwatch, Black Templars or Space Wolves regardless of the detachment used. It’s the very first item in the Errata document.

Though, whether the Deathwatch entry there will remain after the new book comes out remains to be seen, given they’re becoming Agents you’re intended to attach to any army rather than representative of a whole Deathwatch army. I suspect they’ll likely just take it out.

Huh. I appear to have missed that. My bad.

Yeah, I hope they remove that. I like my Tacticals/Devs/Scouts.

Codex was leaked its worse then expected.

DW lost Adeptus Astartes so they no longer count as Space Marines. Covis Blackstar is not a dedicated transport so it takes up a slot in your Ally unit count. Tome and Keys are gone as relics. SIA Strats only work on 1 unit now which must be Veterans but they aren't restricted to Bolt weapons so at least the Frag Cannons get a bit better there.

Stalker Bolter and Shot guns are back at 1 in 5 and 2 in 5 respectively.

Because they are not SM you cannot include any other units if you are building a Black Spear which means no Landraiders, Gladiators, termies, ect. In fact no anti-armor at all in the army as far as I can tell outside of the Blackstar. Because they are not keyworded for SM you cannot target them with Strats nor can they use Oath if you ally them. You also cannot use any of the SM Codex detachments because they are no longer a Space Marine Chapter.

In some ways they turned out better than the rest of the codex, but are very much a merc unit and not an ally anymore. I can see dropping a Rhino with a hammer squad into a marine chapter, which in all honesty is what I take them for now, though its probably a better fit elsewhere.

I have three full Watch Companies of Deathwatch. I'll probably just sell one of my Firstborn companies' worth of models now. Keep the rest of the Firstborn for old time's sake, and maybe the Primaris company to show that I'm down with the kids.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
Codex was leaked its worse then expected.

DW lost Adeptus Astartes so they no longer count as Space Marines. Covis Blackstar is not a dedicated transport so it takes up a slot in your Ally unit count. Tome and Keys are gone as relics. SIA Strats only work on 1 unit now which must be Veterans but they aren't restricted to Bolt weapons so at least the Frag Cannons get a bit better there.

Stalker Bolter and Shot guns are back at 1 in 5 and 2 in 5 respectively.

Because they are not SM you cannot include any other units if you are building a Black Spear which means no Landraiders, Gladiators, termies, ect. In fact no anti-armor at all in the army as far as I can tell outside of the Blackstar. Because they are not keyworded for SM you cannot target them with Strats nor can they use Oath if you ally them. You also cannot use any of the SM Codex detachments because they are no longer a Space Marine Chapter.

So I can paint a few more regular marines to make the split out squads into codex ones, then play a codex chapter with black armour. Yay. But can include my deathwatch vets as actual space marines, just some kind of ersatz ally? Joy.

So, uh, I hope none fo you guys were hoping for Boarding actions. According to Goonhammer, no DW units besides the soon-to-be-legends Termies appear in the entire Boarding Actions compendium. Nowhere, Nada, nothing. You may not take them.

I play a pretty heavily converted Crimso Fists army themed all around Anti Xenos and trophy keeping. Deathwatch Vets would.fit my theme pretty nice.

Any advantages to bringing Deathwatch to a Marine list? No Oath but full rerolls against Xenos is good. It seems to me they play like melee focused Sternguard.

Any thoughts to Allied DW in a Marine army?

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
So, uh, I hope none fo you guys were hoping for Boarding actions. According to Goonhammer, no DW units besides the soon-to-be-legends Termies appear in the entire Boarding Actions compendium. Nowhere, Nada, nothing. You may not take them.

Sure you can.

1) You just take the soon-to-be-Legend DW termies.

2) Nothing stops you from playing Narrative Boarding Action missions....

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I play a pretty heavily converted Crimso Fists army themed all around Anti Xenos and trophy keeping. Deathwatch Vets would.fit my theme pretty nice.

Any advantages to bringing Deathwatch to a Marine list? No Oath but full rerolls against Xenos is good. It seems to me they play like melee focused Sternguard.

Any thoughts to Allied DW in a Marine army?

They difficulty is that they can't use Agents Strats when they're assigned, and they don't have the Astartes Keyword, so they can't benefit from any of the host army's strats either. You can give them a halfway decent load-out, but without a detachment rule and access to strats that load out isn't what it could be. Now I'm hoping that they fix this in an errata; if they don't, Deathwatch are best used as a Xenos detachment, because it's the only way they get detachment rules.

Goonhammer suggests a double rhino rush- I think they pair Artemis and Shooty vets in one and a Watchmaster and Fisty vets in the other- the idea being that ability rules from the datacards combined with the transport and enhanced load-out is solid enough, even without access to detachment rules. I'm not sure I buy it, but they also make the point that those units have real value when you pair them with guard, because they fill gaps in the army's capabilities. In a Space Marine Army, sure, it's nice to bring ACTUAL Deathwatch units to Space Marine Army painted as Deathwatch, but even with their load out, transport and datacard rules, they're still at best equal to other, similarly priced marine units with their full access to an Army rule that actually does something rather than merely allow the Army to show up, a detachment rule, full access to strats and for the characters, access to enhancements.

I think that Legends is going to smooth out some of my biggest problems- the missing data sheets. Fortis, Indomitor and Spectrus Teams should be present, and I suspect that the missing Inquisitors, the Jokaero and the Daemonhost will be too. And we might even get DW Termies and Bikes. Now I get it- Legends isn't ideal, nor does it bode well for the future.

I'd like to see a designer's commentary for this book - and I'd love to hear the reasoning behind why Deathwatch are apparently no longer Space Marines, going by their keywords.

I assume the Grey Knights entries in the book (assuming they're full entries, not just "you can use these units" notes) are also not Adeptus Astartes, like in the Index?

 Dysartes wrote:
I'd like to see a designer's commentary for this book - and I'd love to hear the reasoning behind why Deathwatch are apparently no longer Space Marines, going by their keywords.

I assume the Grey Knights entries in the book (assuming they're full entries, not just "you can use these units" notes) are also not Adeptus Astartes, like in the Index?

If I had to guess, it's because they're not from a single Chapter, and so their original method of waging war doesn't quite work for them anymore. The Deathwatch have different tactics that are Xenos-focused. Also, even if they're showing up in battle with other Marines, they're probably not taking orders from the Chapter that's present - they're doing their own thing.

So... fluff reasons. It's not that they're not Astartes, it's that they're fighting so differently from the rest of them.

Ditto the Grey Knights. That lack the Adeptus Astartes keyword not because they're not Astartes, they're just way too different.

I think that you're right, that's what GW would SAY. But I think that you, like the rest of us, now that's bs.

Because the difference between a Deathwatch Marine and a Blood Angel isn't greater than the difference between a Salamander and a Blood Angel, yet both of those are still marines.

Back in 9th, when psychic powers weren't just extra weapons, GW might have been able to talk me into this for GK- every Marine being a psyker did make them considerably different from other marines. But in 10th, a psychic power is only ever really a brain gun or brain armour anyways.

I think the real reason is just that the people who wrote the rules don't actually play. It's the only way that anyone, given these rules, could suggest that dropping two squads of DW vets and two DW characters- none of which get an effectie army rule or detachment rule or access to strats or enhancements- into a space marine army painted like Deathwatch- would feel like you were playing Deathwatch.

Seriously. The disconnect between "Good" and what DW looks like now is so extreme, that not playing the game that you're writing rules for is literally the only way I can explain it.

Just realized this today…

GW is a cold hearted bitch.

If you own the GW wall calendar, Deathwatch is the poster for August, the very month they nuked the faction, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, if playing with friends and using Deathwatch as allies in a different detachment, just request to use the 3 SIA strats for the DW units, this should be built in. Silly that they leave it at home when joining other Imperial allies.
Would like to see this FAQ’d in.

So it looks like playing Deathwatch has basically three options:

1.) Play Ordo Xenos Detachment as Imperial Agents with 60 Deathwatch Veterans, Corvus Blackstars, Artemis and Watch Captains and use Legends for the other kill teams. You get your Deathwatch flavor but can't play in tournaments, and all your other Deathwatch stuff sits on the shelf. Seems like only an assault army would be viable because the only anti-tank is the big hammers. Toss in whatever's best in Imperial Agents to fill to 2000pts if you want to run tournaments, otherwise fill with Legends units if you want pure Deathwatch.
2.) Play regular Space Marines as Deathwatch but don't bother with Deathwatch Veterans because you'll get 2 squads in Rhinos at a different cost* that don't get your Army or Detachment rules. In other words, it's purely cosmetic. On the up-side, you get to use all your Primaris and vehicle stuff you might have built for Deathwatch. This is probably where I'm at right now. The Primaris Kill teams just switch to regular units and you hope that 11th treats us better.
3.) Play Imperial Agents with the Imperial Navy Detachment for mini-Oath of Moment with Deathwatch in support. This has the most useable stratagems (IIRC only 2 are Voidfarer locked) aside from Ordo Xenos. Hope you like Rogue Traders and Navy Breachers.

*Everyone seems to assume higher cost, but given they'll lack Army/Detachment rules and strats, they should be lower cost? But it's GW so who knows.

 Dysartes wrote:
I'd like to see a designer's commentary for this book - and I'd love to hear the reasoning behind why Deathwatch are apparently no longer Space Marines, going by their keywords.

I'm not sure why you are tying yourself into knots thinking GW isn't aware of what they are doing. They told us way back on the lead up to 10th edition. Their answer probably looks a lot like this:

Fictitious GW Design Commentary wrote:Many units in Codex Agents of the Imperium do not share keywords (notably faction keywords) or faction ability as other similar units (notably the Requistioned units compared to their codex versions and Deathwatch Veterans compared to Codex Space Marine units). All units in Codex Agents of the Imperium share the same faction and faction rule as is normal in codexes. This is a functional rule to allow the units in this codex to operate together based on the faction rule and faction keyword. This also allows the faction ability, Assigned Agents, to govern adding these units to other armies.

Of special note, Deathwatch units do not have Oath of Moment ability nor the Adeptes Astartes keyword despite being made up of Space Marines from different chapters. We do not want Deathwatch to perform better in a Space Marines army by way of double-dipping into keywords and faction abilities.