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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
10th Edition
10 Bolter Marines
20 Shots
BS 3+ yields = 40/3 Hits
Wound 50% = 20/3 Wounds
Fail 1/3 Saves = 20/9 Wounds
1.11 Dead Marines

10 Bolt Rifle Marines
20 Shots
BS 3+ yields = 40/3 Hits (50/3 if Stationary due to Heavy)
Wound 50% = 20/3 Wounds (50/6 if Stationary)
Fail 1/2 Saves = 20/6 Wounds (50/12 if Stationary)
1.66 Dead Marines (2.08 Dead if Stationary)

AP -1 and +1 BS kill half a Marine each for Bolt Rifles over Bolters.

Bolt Rifles also have that handy extra range (I think? They were defo 30” when they first came out). So there’s a chance of them getting at least one volley more than Boltguns, and have (had) a longer Rapid Fire Range. Not a huge difference, but enough to muddle the numbers somewhat in different editions.

Plus the extra shots now following the dataslate. Intercessors needing to drop 4 shots a turn with heavy/assault and AP baked in and still being considered crap is.... worrying.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ignoring a 5+ save is a 50% boost in lethality.
That’s significant.

Honest question here - I'm not following your logic here. Ignoring a given pip is only 20% (1 Always fails, so the range of success is 2-6 = 5 results, 20% per pip?) And without AP 5 some of those 5+ saves are already going to fail through the RNG - so some subset of the 40% that now autofail were already failures - I don't see how you get to 50%?

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ignoring a 5+ save is a 50% boost in lethality.
That’s significant.

Honest question here - I'm not following your logic here. Ignoring a given pip is only 20% (1 Always fails, so the range of success is 2-6 = 5 results, 20% per pip?) And without AP 5 some of those 5+ saves are already going to fail through the RNG - so some subset of the 40% that now autofail were already failures - I don't see how you get to 50%?

If 6 hits get past the wounding step:

With a 5+ save an average of 4 go through
With AP5 all 6 go through

This gives a difference of 2 which is 50% more than 4.

Dudeface wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
10th Edition
10 Bolter Marines
20 Shots
BS 3+ yields = 40/3 Hits
Wound 50% = 20/3 Wounds
Fail 1/3 Saves = 20/9 Wounds
1.11 Dead Marines

10 Bolt Rifle Marines
20 Shots
BS 3+ yields = 40/3 Hits (50/3 if Stationary due to Heavy)
Wound 50% = 20/3 Wounds (50/6 if Stationary)
Fail 1/2 Saves = 20/6 Wounds (50/12 if Stationary)
1.66 Dead Marines (2.08 Dead if Stationary)

AP -1 and +1 BS kill half a Marine each for Bolt Rifles over Bolters.

Bolt Rifles also have that handy extra range (I think? They were defo 30” when they first came out). So there’s a chance of them getting at least one volley more than Boltguns, and have (had) a longer Rapid Fire Range. Not a huge difference, but enough to muddle the numbers somewhat in different editions.

Plus the extra shots now following the dataslate. Intercessors needing to drop 4 shots a turn with heavy/assault and AP baked in and still being considered crap is.... worrying.

Purely by weapon stats, Tactical Squad Bolters are (Range 24", A2, BS 3+, S4, AP0, D1) while Bolt Rifles are (Assault, Heavy, Range 24", A2, BS 3+, S4, AP -1, D1).

That Dataslate ability is insane! +2 Bolt Rifles attacks if the unit targets only one enemy unit is awesome. Poor Tactical Squad gets nothing because Firstborn unit.

That does solve the marine-on-marine lethality... for one unit

10 Bolt Rifle Marines
40 Shots
BS 3+ yields = 80/3 Hits (100/3 if Stationary due to Heavy)
Wound 50% = 40/3 Wounds (50/2 if Stationary)
Fail 1/2 Saves = 20/3 Wounds (25/6 if Stationary)
3.33 Dead Marines (4.16 Dead if Stationary)

Yeah. It's pretty bonkers-and yet I know at least some people still don't think Intercessors are worth taking.

and against any army that isn't a space marine?

It's stupid good.

The word "nauseating" comes to mind.