Pathfinders Devilfish Scout Rule?

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**mughi3**

The unit in this case is the Pathfinder infantry, although the mandatory Devilfish is part of a Pathfinder Team. It cannot be argued that Pathfinder infantry + Pathfinder Devilfish is a single unit, as obviously they are two seperate ones

and once again you are ignoreing the complete RAW on page 24

"number/TEAM/squad etc..: this shows the number of models in the UNIT" p 24

tau codex: FOC, fast attack choice; entry:-pathfinder TEAM p38

"TEAM: consists of 4-8 pathfinders and a devilfish"-p38

"special rules: this is where you will find any special rules that apply to the UNIT" p24

"special rules: scouts pathfinders are scouts, see universal special rules inthe warhammer 40k rulebook"p38

are the shas'la infantry?

yes

is a devilfish a vehicle?

yes

is the devilfish and the shas'la part of the same team named pathfinders?

yes

as per the RAW does the team consist of all the models in the unit?

yes

does the unit benefit from the scout special rule?

yes

is the the devilfish a dedicated transport?

yes

does it follow the transport rules as found in the warhammer 40K cor rules?

yes

does it get a special abilty to scout above and beyond the dedicated transport rules as per the tau codex?

yes

i cannot spell it our much simpler that that. it is there in black and white in all the RAW related to the issue.

**spmusubi**

Yet "Unit Type" is listed as Infantry in the exact same entry! The single unit which is called "Pathfinder Team" is an Infantry unit, regardless of the fact that the Devilfish is not an infantry model. If you consider both the Pathfinder infantry and the Devilfish as a single unit, then you must apply ALL the unit options to them, not just the Scout one. Surely you don't mean to say that the Devilfish has a pulse carbine, can carry grenades, etc?

"Equipment: These are the unit's standard weapons and equipment." (Codex: Tau Empire, pg24)

**Antonin**

So - I take Chosen Terminators, with a dedicated Land Raider. The Terminators can deep strike. Can the Land Raider?

No, no it cannot. It does not get the terminators special rule just by being part of their unit. Same with the pathfinders - the difference is that you must take the devilfish, while the land raider is permissive, but that difference is immaterial to the rules.

Mughi3 - as you quoted: "TEAM: consists of 4-8 pathfinders and a devilfish"-p38

"special rules: scouts pathfinders are scouts, see universal special rules inthe warhammer 40k rulebook"p38

There is no explicit application of the Scout rule to the devilfish, only to Pathfinders. Additionally, transport vehicles don't get the rules of their squads. Thus, no, no scouting with the devilfish. Yes, this means that unit, as written, cannot scout onto the table.

**nobody**

Here we go again!

**mughi3**

Yet "Unit Type" is listed as Infantry in the exact same entry! The single unit which is called "Pathfinder Team" is an Infantry unit, regardless of the fact that the Devilfish is not an infantry model. If you consider both the Pathfinder infantry and the Devilfish as a single unit, then you must apply ALL the unit options to them, not just the Scout one. Surely you don't mean to say that the Devilfish has a pulse carbine, can carry grenades, etc?

"Equipment: These are the unit's standard weapons and equipment." (Codex: Tau Empire, pg24)

and yet again you ignore applicable RAW.

a special rule applies to the unit

infantry weeapons and wargear are not a special rule

vehicle and infantry also follow the the RAW on what wargear and weapons they can take.

it just so happens that tau have a unit comprised of infantry and vehicles. niether can take the others weapons and wargear as per the RAW but both benefit from the special rul as per the RAW.

**nobody**

So Mughi still cannot prove his point without daisy-chaining rules together?

Here's one you never answered from the last thread: Does the Genestealer retinue of a Broodlord get the "unholy strength" rule?

**Moz**

And regardless of the status of scout on the devilfish, the pathfinder shas'la have scout and may be placed on the table at the start of the battle, regardless of scenario restrictions to the unit.

Unless you want to say the devilfish removes their scout USR, which can only be done by an independent character so have fun with that.

**nobody**

Moz, the ability to start on or off the board in escalation is determined by the force organization slot, not by the unit. In this case the entire force organization slot cannot deploy on the table, so everybody starts off the board. The only army in the game that allows you to split up the slot into units who can start on or off the board is Guard.

In alpha and gamma, however, the pathfinders get to use the "scout" move to get the free move before the game begins.

**mughi3**

Posted By Antonin on 07/05/2006 8:48 AM
So - I take Chosen Terminators, with a dedicated Land Raider. The Terminators can deep strike. Can the Land Raider?

No, no it cannot. It does not get the terminators special rule just by being part of their unit. Same with the pathfinders - the difference is that you must take the devilfish, while the land raider is permissive, but that difference is immaterial to the rules.

Mughi3 - as you quoted: "TEAM: consists of 4-8 pathfinders and a devilfish"-p38

"special rules: scouts pathfinders are scouts, see universal special rules inthe warhammer 40k rulebook"p38

There is no explicit application of the Scout rule to the devilfish, only to Pathfinders. Additionally, transport vehicles don't get the rules of their squads. Thus, no, no scouting with the devilfish. Yes, this means that unit, as written, cannot scout onto the table.

nice red hering unfortunatel it doesn't apply.

the RAW for C:SM does not affect the RAW for C:TAU

tau can do things other armies cannot.

only the pathifnders?

well show me a pathfinder model then, oh wait there isn't any because pathfinders are a team of 4-8 infantry firewarriors (shas'la) and thier special devilfish that form a single UNIT assigned to scout ahead of the main force. thats right a pathfinder TEAM is collectively called simply "pathfinders"

as per the RAW pathfinders are a UNIT that have scout, the UNIT is comprised of a team of 4-8 infantry and a special dedicated fish. therefore both the fish and the infantry scout together because the special rule to scout applies to the UNIT.

again it is right there in black and white-the UNIT beneifis, the fish is part of the UNIT

**mughi3**

Posted By nobody on 07/05/2006 9:54 AM
So Mughi still cannot prove his point without daisy-chaining rules together?

Here's one you never answered from the last thread: Does the Genestealer retinue of a Broodlord get the "unholy strength" rule?

i use the rules that apply, using rules that do not apply is rediculous. do i use infantry movement rules when i am discussing moving vehicles? no because it does not apply

do i uses wargear and weapons for infantry on vehicles? no because it doesn't apply

nice attempt and bait and switch, the nid codex is not the point of discussion. they have thier own codex and thier own applicable RAW.

**nobody**

Sorry, looks like you are still using the exact same arguement that was shot down in the last thread.

The Tyranid codex example is perfectly valid, it uses the exact same terminology that the Tau codex does, and in the same way. So I'll ask my question again: Does Unholy Strength apply to the Broodlord's retinue too? If you are using the Devilfish can scout arguement, you should have no problem with a tyranid player bringing a Broodlord to the table with his retinue and saying they all have power weapons.

Unless you are trying to say that you get to pick and choose which rules interpretations apply to you and your opponent?

**Moz**

A unit with scout may begin the battle on the table. If you are trying to refute this with a general deployment rule, why not say fearless models have to take morale tests because of the general rules in the morale section.

The FOC is not allowed to deploy by escalation scenario rules, the Scout USR kicks in and allows the models with scout to deploy regardless of restrictions.

Special rules break general rules all the time, this is pretty standard stuff.

**nobody**

The fearless USR make specific mention of what rules the unit may ignore. The scout rule makes no claim that you can split the deployment of a force org slot when one or more members has the "scout" special rule.

As an aside, if it were purely an intent arguement I'd agree with you about the split deployment.

**midnight**

Here's the things about that Spainish Codex. It is not internally consistant.

For Tyranids and Tau it uses strict RAW on the instakill by more than double T within Synapse, and the Devilfish Scout.
It doesn't apply the same standard to Terminator Armor as wargear not always allowing deepstriking even though that language was omitted.

If they aren't applying the same methods to all codexes, I am not going to listen.

Additionally it was not done by the Design team, cause they wouldn't write the FAQ in Spanish first. I think that thing can get thrown out as being wrong just on those 2 points alone.

**Antonin**

Posted By mughi3 on 07/05/2006 10:04 AM

as per the RAW pathfinders are a UNIT that have scout, the UNIT is comprised of a team of 4-8 infantry and a special dedicated fish. therefore both the fish and the infantry scout together because the special rule to scout applies to the UNIT.

again it is right there in black and white-the UNIT beneifis, the fish is part of the UNIT

No, per the RAW, there is nothing that says the "unit" receives "scout." The rule says the Pathfinders get scout. To be in black and white, there would need to be some rule saying "the whole unit gets Scout" or perhaps the whole unit may scout, or something similar. So, what you are claiming is not only not in black and white - it appears instead to be an inference that since "they could not possibly have meant that" that the rule is what you claim it is.

You have not answered my question, except basically to say that the ulres apply differently to different armies, a claim I find highly suspect. How about a different SM example - a squad of veterans with move through cover is in a Rhino. Does the Rhino reroll difficult terrain tests?

**mughi3**

Sorry, looks like you are still using the exact same arguement that was shot down in the last thread.

i am only using the RAW, you cannot shoot down whats in print

The Tyranid codex example is perfectly valid it uses the exact same terminology that the Tau codex does, and in the same way.

actually no it is not.

since you don't seem to know the RAW on the broodlord special rules

unlike the tau dex the nid dex special rules are differnet, they makes a specific seperation between models in the broodlords unit as to which special rules apply to which models. (there is no broodlord team called broodlords to benefit from the special rules))

"synapse creature: the BROODLORD is a synapse creature.."

"infiltraite: BROODLORDS and thier GENESTEALER RETINUES......"

etc....

the tau dex makes no such seperation

pathfinders is a term for the team of infantry and thier vehicle as they make a "pathfinder team"

pathfinders scout therefore the entire team scouts. as per the RAW.

**mughi3**

No, per the RAW, there is nothing that says the "unit" receives "scout.

abviously you cannot read

"special rules: this is where you will find any special rules that apply to the UNIT" p24

**Moz**

Continuing the double argument of this thread, I will restate that units with Scout may be deployed at the beginning of the battle. This is verbatim and breaks any rule that would prove otherwise. Specific examples aren't necessary, and would be particularly weird in this case since the Codex with the quirk wasn't written yet.

**nobody**

How lovely, you are still omitting portions of the rules to try to make your point.

The Broodlord's entry states that that the Brood is one Broodlord and a retinue of 6-11 Genestealers.

It was established in the other thread that the terminology used for "brood" is the same that the Tau codex uses for "team." Thus, that Brood means unit.

It was also established that the exact same phrase is used for "special rules," that it applies to the unit.

What does this mean? How about that they stated that the broodlord and it's retinue gain the infiltrate skill is irrelevant since the special rules apply to the whole unit anyway.

Now certainly, I don't agree with this assessment, but it is the logical conclusion if we use your interpretation of the wording of the rules.

**Vengis** · Posted By mughi3 on 07/05/2006 10:58 AM abviously you cannot read Abviously.

Posted By mughi3 on 07/05/2006 10:58 AM

abviously you cannot read

Abviously.

**spmusubi**

and yet again you ignore applicable RAW.

a special rule applies to the unit

infantry weeapons and wargear are not a special rule

vehicle and infantry also follow the the RAW on what wargear and weapons they can take.

it just so happens that tau have a unit comprised of infantry and vehicles. niether can take the others weapons and wargear as per the RAW but both benefit from the special rul as per the RAW.

Why would the weapons and wargear selections not apply to the unit? The *ahem* RAW quote I gave "Equipment: These are the unit's standard weapons and equipment." (Codex: Tau Empire, pg24) does not apply to the Pathfinder Devilfish because why? Where is your RAW quote that it doesn't?

**mughi3**

What does this mean? How about that they stated that the broodlord and it's retinue gain the infiltrate skill is irrelevant since the special rules apply to the whole unit anyway.

Now certainly, I don't agree with this assessment, but it is the logical conclusion if we use your interpretation of the wording of the rules.

no it is not

read both entries in thier entirety

pathfinders is a collective term for a pathfinder team which includes thier transport.

there is no dispensation for pathfinder shas'la getting scout and pathfinder devilfish not getting scout

hence the special rules for pathfinders gaining the scout abilty applies to the team collectively called pathfinders

the nid codex makes specifc restrictions on what parts of the lords brood gets what special rule, if there were no dispensation then yes they would all get each of the special rules as per the base use of special rules as listed on p34

"Equipment: These are the unit's standard weapons and equipment." (Codex: Tau Empire, pg24) does not apply to the Pathfinder Devilfish because why? Where is your RAW quote that it doesn't?

overidden by tau codex

p28 & 29-infantry armoury

and

p 30 & 31-tau vehicle armoury

a devilfish has no access to the infatry armory where said weapons exhist and the vehicle armory does not allow them for vehicles.

they are a mixed team of both infantry and a vehicle and still must maintain armory restriction

since were going through this i decided togo look up the escalation rules again.

.p84

says only basic infantry without dedicated transports may be deployed

which is what started this debate since a pathfinder team is rquired to take a dedicated transport

but then reading on it says

"some UNITS have special rules, such as SCOUTS, that allow them to deploy on table. such special rules apply as normal."

the core rules alone allow the unit called a pathfinder team to overide normal escalation rules(same goes for guard sentinels which are vehicles) and deploy on table with thier transport. because they are scouts.

**spmusubi**

overidden by tau codex

p28 & 29-infantry armoury

and

p 30 & 31-tau vehicle armoury

a devilfish has no access to the infatry armory where said weapons exhist and the vehicle armory does not allow them for vehicles.

they are a mixed team of both infantry and a vehicle and still must maintain armory restriction

That's not a RAW quote at all! Where does it say "vehicles or infantry may only be equipped with weapons listed in their respective Armoury entries" in the rules?

The Burst Cannon mounted on the Devilfish isn't inside the vehicle armoury, yet it comes with it. Pulse carbines with built in markerlight designators aren't found in the infantry Wargear, but Pathfinders come with them.

Devilifsh only have access to the Vehicle Armoury, but the standard equipment of a Pathfinder team would override this, yes? "Equipment: These are the unit's standard weapons and equipment." If the Devilfish comes with the markerlight carbine standard, there's no need for that to be in the Vehicle Armoury. It's only if it was a purchasable upgrade that it would need to be in the Armoury.

**Antonin**

Moz - absolutely, units with scout will start on the table. however, units with some scouting elements and some non-scouting elements cannot always start on the table - hence, this dispute. So yes, you are right, but its not a relevant point.

**Moz**

There's no other precedent for a single FOC slot with only some scouting units. Unless there's a specific rule you are referencing that I am not aware of, Scout overrides the general and the unit with it may deploy as stated by the USR.

The FOC slot will still be rolled for with reserves and whatever elements that did not scout (devilfish) will come onto the table by normal escalation rules.

It's important here that the Scout USR only references the unit with the ability. If it said anything about the FOC slot then things would be different.

**Antonin**

Yes, I agree there is no precedent for this situation - the pathfinder/devilfish is the only time this arises, that I am aware of. Again, irrelevant; there is a standard rule that you roll for a single FOC choice and it all comes on the tabel at the same time. The same goes for deployment; you deploy the FOC choice at the same time. (this is somewhat muddier with IG, though not in any relevant way here).
No rule exists, that I am aware of, that exempts the pathfinders/devilfish from the requirement to enter the table together, and therefore they must enter the table together. So, even with the "Scout" of certain elements, to bring on the unit piecemeal would break the rule.

**Moz**

I guess a USR breaking a general rule just doesn't seem all that weird to me, even if it's not explicitly stated that following the USR would break a general rule.

Say we were playing a game:
I would put my pathfinders on the table, and you would say "They have to come on with the devilfish, says so right here. Since the fish can't come on, they can't either."
I would say "units with scout may always deploy at the start of the battle, says so right here"

Where does it go from there?

**Antonin**

It dumps us into the other part of this discussion, which is hotly contested by many people. If I remember correctly, the Spanish FAQ, which says that the devilfish does not have scout, means the unit stays off-table in escalation. That does accord with the plain RAW.

**Moz**

Nono, our civil little section of this thread has nothing to do with that. You and I are both assuming the Spanish FAQ is canon and the Devilfish does not scout. I contend that the Pathfinders themselves start on the table in Escalation, while the fish starts off the board. Sorry, I see my example didn't really include that part.

**nobody**

Moz,

In your example the next question you have to ask is:

"Would it be worth the hit to my sportsmanship to win this arguement?"

Your opponent would be justified (IMHO) in viewing it as an attempt to take advantage of a vague rule to your own benefit.