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You fail, Burn. Most recent ruling wins. FAQ is most recent. And stop making up bulls#it quotes; page number and actual wording, please. I'll counter with the FAQ wording, of course, so you may not even want to bother. Of course, that would require you to acknowledge a world outside your own head, and I know that's scary, so don't bother responding... ever again.

My wording is more recent than yours. I wrote it in myself 5 minites ago.

I guess to stay on topic...First off, Sutekh, it's a great list (love the dreads). On the otherhand, I don't believe it is the category of the WAAC title for SAFH marines. Sure it is strong, but would be stronger with pods (thank god you're too lazy to build em). Secondly, I agree with others that points are wasted with the HQ who is all dressed up to waste points. You could buy a cheaper HQ and use the points to upgrade (i.e., add a marine, add a las or plas, etc.) your other selections.



I'm interested to hear what do you think the major weakness in this list is? What list do you fear and how can you counter it?

Master - stormbolter, bionics, meltabombs (He stands in the backfield, reading a book, giving leadership; that's about it.)

I seriously hope you model him with the book.....make it a scary one...

Then instead of moving the model at the start of each movement phase you READ out whatever page he is on...

Turn 1: It was a dark and stormy night....

Turn 3: All that was found was his mangled corpse

Turn 6: ..........(something funny)

nikeforever22: I think the greatest weakness of the list is its lack of firepower... No, seriously, it's a toss-up between lack of mobility and lack of HtH counters. It can move to take objectives, but the process is ponderous, and it telegraphs your purpose. That is somewhat mitigated by the durability of the dreads for taking objectives, but it's still hard to sneak something past your opponent maneuver-wise, akin to an orge hiding behind a sapling. Likewise, concerted efforts can see off many HtH threats, but tooled-out Chaos HQs still give it fits, and I'm pretty sure a Death Company would give me trouble too (no BA players around presently, but I just have the feeling). I can handle them if I can catch them out in the open and whittle them down with shooting, but since I like terrain-heavy tables, that's not always possible.

The kind of list I fear most with this list would probably be your average SAFH Eldar/Dark Eldar list. CTMs make jokes out of my firepower, and I have no real anti-personnel shots, outside of Tactical bolters and 3 assault cannons, to work through the Guardians that would bullet-catch for weapons platforms. Dark Eldar can be on top of me in a flash, tie up my shooting, and cut out someting like 2/3rds of my effectiveness. Add to that a plethora of dark lances and/or blasters, and I end up having a bad day.  Countering these threats requires me to deploy carefully, and either (in the case of CTM threats) move agressively to deny them hiding places or (in the case of Dark Eldar) set up a somewhat sacrificial perimeter and counter-assault, hopefully clearing out threats in time to shoot down the DE gunships.

Overall, this list is just a "Scissors"; it whups up on some lists, while dying to no good effect to others. If someone brings a "Rock", I'm in trouble.

Someone ban the stupid mother*fudge*er! This isn't funny anymore.

Yes the battle has raged for about 2 years now and I for one am glad to see that with the FAQ it is now settled.

Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients Trait does mean that you can now take 3 Elite Ven Dreadnoughts and 3 Ven Dreadnoughts as heavy's.

I know I am going to get 4 more for my space marines.

I think the FAQ made it very playable.

Warrior 50

Ignoring the last page of drivel, lets get back to the list.

I like the concept of 6 venerable dreads, maybe because im building gojirra nids which are quite the same. Personally, i'd ditch the heavy flamer, one missile/plas squad then boost up the las/plas squads to 6 and change the master to an epistolary with fury and a bike, maybe fear to hopefully ding over guard. If you points left over then i'd suggest getting smokes on your dreads. Sometimes you might just get caught out in the open if you're not careful enough or roll snake eyes for terrain when you're shaken.

This army is definitely on my list of armies i want to play as its very unusual.

I love the list but i have some suggestions ...

for HQ ...
Techmarine Commander.. Stock
3 gun Servitors w/ Hvy Bolters
1 Gun Servitor w/ Plasma Cannon
Razorback Transport
Twin Lascannons, Pintle Stormbolter, Extra armor

of course this would mean losing a tac squad ...

but you could take just two tac squads like this ...
6 man Tac Squad
1 Hvy Bolter, frag grenades
Razorback transport
Twin Hvy bolters, Extra Armor, Pintle Stormbolter

then fill it out with your six dreads ... should be around 1500 points and adds a fair bit of firepower and a fluffy hq. You will need the scion trait and eye for an eye though so its starts to look like Iron Hands. .

or just take a techmarine and bling him up with servitors to fix any dreads. Cant you get it down to a 2+ to fix or something stupid?? Walk that behind at least three dreads and just laugh.

The model count is about as low as I want it to go, as-is; I'll keep some of the suggestions in mind for scaling up to 1850 and 2000. I'll be trying the Epistolary next time I play (not on a bike, though, since I like to play WYSIWYG), and I love Razorbacks, so they'll likely show up as the points increase.

One of the reasons I don't go for the Tech-and-Dread phalanx is that it depends on there being one axis to work an advance. I like to move the Dreads in pairs, or even alone, to work angles of fire more effectively and to keep them from blocking each others' line of fire. The other is that I have, to date, enjoyed greatly the Ld 10 of the Master to keep my troop guns on-task and in position. The low numbers in the squads make them vulnerable to running, more than I like. That may be something I just have to accept, to get a more effective HQ; I'll try it some other ways. The Tech-captain, however, just doesn't sell himself to me; in order to have a decent chance of repair, he has to have a retinue of servies... which makes him targetable. In my mind, a significant no-no. Also, I'm tech-oriented, but I'm not Iron-Hands material. If I was to take a second trait, it'd probably be Cleanse and Purify, so that the squads could move in support of the advancing dreads, with appropriate disadvantages.

Thanks all for the great analysis, the kind words, and the support in the face of jackassery. I'll be sure to post further thoughts on variants later.

Dude, this is a nice list. I have been pondering such a list myself, though I dunno if I would personally do 6 dreds at 1500 pts.

Oh and what do you use the AC/ML dreads for, anti infantry or do you use it as anti-tank, because I was pondering using that setup as anti-tank with tank hunters. 4 shots that pen 13/glance 14 on a 6 sounds helpful.

It still doesn't change the fact its illegal. FAQs mean nothing, look to the rulebook and the codex for guidance. You can only take 3 dreads! Only the elite ones may be venerable! Simple!!!!

Obviously you don't get the hint, everyone here has accepted the FAQ's as legit, if you don't like it burnthexenos, then I suggest you leave here and stop playing, because no one will listen.

Posted By burnthexenos on 08/26/2006 4:28 PM
It still doesn't change the fact its illegal. FAQs mean nothing, look to the rulebook and the codex for guidance. You can only take 3 dreads! Only the elite ones may be venerable! Simple!!!!

And your post doesn't change the fact that you are wrong and the list is completely legal.

Tanarin: Hey, to each their own.  The main reason I use all 6 is that I've had most of these Dreadnoughts since 2nd ed., and I've always loved the models.  Less might be better, and grant more flexibility in design, but for me, it's a theme unto itself.

The AC/ML dreads are multi-purpose.  The AC and frag missiles make them anti-personnel, while the AC's rending and the krak missiles do well for anti-tank.  It's my true jack-of-all-trades Dread, since even a non-DCCW dread can assault fairly well, especially with back up.  The problem with overspecialization is that, once the threat you've tailored against is gone, the unit performs below par.  With a variable use, you can engage whatever targets are in sight or needed.  If I was to give it a skill, Tank Hunters would be it, for the aforementioned reasons.  Close combat isn't this guy's main forte, and a skill wouldn't help enough to be worth it.

Oh, and ignore the troll; he has a bridge to crawl back under.

No, im correct and the FAQ is illegal, as it goes against what is written in the codex and my rulebook.

Posted By lord_sutekh on 08/26/2006 6:01 PM

Tanarin: Hey, to each their own.  The main reason I use all 6 is that I've had most of these Dreadnoughts since 2nd ed., and I've always loved the models.  Less might be better, and grant more flexibility in design, but for me, it's a theme unto itself.

The AC/ML dreads are multi-purpose.  The AC and frag missiles make them anti-personnel, while the AC's rending and the krak missiles do well for anti-tank.  It's my true jack-of-all-trades Dread, since even a non-DCCW dread can assault fairly well, especially with back up.  The problem with overspecialization is that, once the threat you've tailored against is gone, the unit performs below par.  With a variable use, you can engage whatever targets are in sight or needed.  If I was to give it a skill, Tank Hunters would be it, for the aforementioned reasons.  Close combat isn't this guy's main forte, and a skill wouldn't help enough to be worth it.

Oh, and ignore the troll; he has a bridge to crawl back under.

Yeah I figured as much on those dreads. Though you may want to consider tank hunter for them if you can. Being able to pen AV13/glance AV14 on a 6 could help.

Just one question: Why not drop 3 dreadnoughts, to make your list legal, and then take a load of land speeder tornados with assault cannons. Its a way to compensate for your lack of maneuvarability, and of course, you get more assault cannons in.

Also, I advise against a missile launcher/ assaul cannon combo. The Missile Launcher encourages you to stay back, to use its raneg to best effect, while the assault cannon wants you to get in close, so it can fire, as it has a comparatively short range. In the 24 inch zone is where your in danger of been charged in a couple of turns (jump infantry, beasts, fleet of foot).

When you take assault cannons, take a dreadnought close combat weapon. When you take missile launchers, take lascannons. If you put your dreadnoughts in pods, only ever take assault cannons and dreadnought close combat weapons.

Tank Hunters seems rather expensive for 10pts IMO.

Still...you gotta drop 3 dreads before this list is legal.

Why don't you drop your ludicrous claims that 6 dreadnoughts are not legal instead. The FAQ clearly states that 6 dreadnoughts is legal and just because you disagree with it does not invalidate it. Grow up and act like an adult instead of claiming the the FAQ is wrong. It is not. The only thing that is wrong is your claims that he can not use 6 dreadnoughts.

Nope, I cant use the FAQ. It goes against the RAW (as written by myself), and it goes against the designers intent, and the very fabric of the game.

Posted By burnthexenos on 08/26/2006 8:40 PM
Nope, I cant use the FAQ. It goes against the RAW (as written by myself), and it goes against the designers intent, and the very fabric of the game.

And who are you to determine that the wording of the FAQ goes against the 'Rules As Written' and that the supposed wording of the rule takes precedence?  You're a nobody.  It's not your decision.  Who are you to determine what the 'designer's intent' is?  You're a nobody.  It's not your decision.  Who are you to determine what goes against the 'very fabric of the game'?  You're a nobody.  It's not your decision

Come back when you can act like an adult and not a troll.

Just ignore him. This is parody taken to high art. He's too articulate to be a kiddie, and too over-the-top to be serious. This is some sort of post-modern, post-ironic form of humor.

Also, Gav Thorpe lives in my basement and he told me all dreadnoughts are illegal.

I currently use a variant of this list with my Ultramarines. This is my 1850 list (the only one I have on hand). At 1500 I still use 3 dreads, but I have to drop the Libby and termi command down to a power armored command and a chappy.

Epistolary(Fear, fury, termi armor)
Termi Command:
2 assault cannons, 1 storm bolter, 1 sarge

Ven Dread
Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra armor, Drop pod

Ven Dread
Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra armor, Drop pod

Ven Dread
Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra armor, Drop pod

Tac Squad:
3x Bolter, 2x Meltagun, Sarge, Drop pod

Tac Squad:
3x Bolter, 2x Meltagun, Sarge, Drop pod

Tac Squad:
3x Bolter, 2x Meltagun, Sarge, Drop pod

Land Speeder Squadron:
Land speeder with assault cannon

Dread
Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra armor, Drop pod

Dread
Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra armor, Drop pod

Dread
Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra armor, Drop pod

Ghaz, why dont you stop acting like a troll, and just realise that 6 dreads is illegal! My rulebook specifically mentions that you CANNOT take 6 dreadnoughts, and only the elite ones can (and must) be venerable, when heed the wisdom of the ancients is taken.

By the way, I can make all these descisions because of the rulebook. It supports me, the wording of heed the wisdom of the ancients supports me, and all you have is an unofficial FAQ.

Dumbuket, im deadly serious. I dont want him to spend all that money on those dreads, then find out they are illegal.

Fods_Bett, your list is illegal aswell, for the same reasons as the previous list. But its not as illegal, as you have not taken venerable upgrades on the heavy support dreadnoughts. But you still must drop 3 dreadnoughts before your list is legal.

I'm not deleting burnthexenos' posts this time, because I think he has taken it sufficiently over the top to make clear that he is joking.

That said, burnthexenos, I'd like you to knock off the trolling. When it's done for comedic and parody value, and is sufficiently over the top to be obvious, it's funny. Like in the recent Tactics thread when you listed everything you find cheesy, and typed out a list of half the units and special rules in the game. That was good for a chuckle. But when you're subtle enough that people can't tell you're joking, it's just irritating and a detriment to the board. If you keep up the actual trolling (as opposed to the blatantly obvious jokes), your posts will be deleted.

-The Management

Posted By burnthexenos on 08/27/2006 2:25 PM
Ghaz, why dont you stop acting like a troll, and just realise that 6 dreads is illegal! My rulebook specifically mentions that you CANNOT take 6 dreadnoughts, and only the elite ones can (and must) be venerable, when heed the wisdom of the ancients is taken.

Why don't you stop acting like a troll and follow Mannahnin's advice and try to actually be a contributing member of the forum for a change.

Burn obviously does not "heed the wisdom of the ancients"!

Im not joking when I type this! Those units were cheesy...oh, and you can add rubric terminators to that list aswell, I just learned they had 2 wounds each for only 34pts!

6 Dreads is damn well illegal, and you all know it! I dont heed the wisdom of the ancients because there is nothing to heed! You can only take 3 dreads anyway!