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Made in ch
Dakka Veteran




Planet of Dakka

my army so far actually cost me quite a few rounds:
-2 boxes of chaos marines,
-7 blisters of raptors(i bought them slowly,never really planning on using them until i had enough for a squad),
-2 rhinos(one bought by accident,took the wrong box instead of a pred),
-1 predator,
-defiler,
-marine terminators and 2 blisters of chaos termis,
-sorceror
-daemon prince,
-land raider,
-havoc,
-nurgle havocs,
-3 bikes,
-obliterator
-second hand dreadnought,converted to a chaos one,
-thousand sons,
-khorne berzerkers.

and marines are probably the army where you field the least troops.So no,i would strongly disagree that its a cheap hobby.There is more expensive obviously,like video games (something i do,but much less now because of 40k) or other things that were mentioned.
We dont whine that its expensive,we do because its simply ridiculous how much its costs for the base quality and amount you get (50$ for 5 termies example),and although it sounds the same,it isnt.


http://www.petitiononline.com/damnatus/ 
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

If I were to rebuy my Iron Warriors army today: 1250 points!!!

($180) 4x Box of Chaos Marines
($64) 4x Lascannon Chaos Marines
($30) 1x Bike
($105) 3x Obliterators
($55) 1x Vindicator
($55) 1x Basilisk

= $489 Cdn

Of course, I wasn't content to let it be stock, so my Vindicator is converted from a new rhino and old vindicator parts, with forgeworld extra armor, Champions are tech marines, I have at least two dozen IW heads. This is pretty damn bare bones, and it is still a bundle of money, and no-where near Tournament size. You'd probably need an additional $150-200 to make it Tournament sized.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Plano, Texas

If I were to rebuy all of my tyranids, at full retail:

1x Hive tyrant: $45 + plastic wings: $11-ish
9x Warriors: $105
1x Broodlord: $17
2x Tyrant Guard (used as elite carnifexes): $40
80x Genestealers: $240
64x Hormagaunts: $140
64x Gaunts: $140
4x Carnifexes: $180
3x Raveners: $45
3x Zoanthropes: $51
1x Biovore: $20
Codex: $20

Grand total: $1054

Thankfully, everythign that I bought was discounted in someway (20% from FLGS, 50% - 75% from barnes and noble, ebay, etc), so I probably didn't even pay half that.

I should note, if it isn't obvious, that that is NOT a single army. With my usual biomorphs, it comes out to around 5500 points.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Richland, WA

I think the main problem is that it is expensive in time (the time spent assembling and painting the minis). All that time spent not doing other things for a crappy ruleset with no support. There isn't a good skirmish ruleset to make new armies seem like a good start up investment (time wise). A warmachine army can be painted in realitively no time. You have a better ruleset and more options for more armies which equals more fun (in my opinion).
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Here's the thing with Warmachine. People who start buy EVERYTHING.

And then they spent as much, if not more, than they spent on a 40k army

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Posted By Manfred von Drakken on 08/22/2006 9:24 AM
Posted By malfred on 08/22/2006 5:21 AM
"On the flip side, he can play Madden forever."

Don't they re-release that game every year or something? Or did they stop?


Madden 2007 just released at midnight this morning. I know - I was working it.

Sweet. What do you do?

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

All I know is, most of what I use today is the same stuff I bought in the 90's. With that cost spread over about a decade, I'd say I got quite a deal.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Smatticus- i know it's crazy expensive over time, if i added up all the stuff i've bought over the past few years, i... no, i'm in a good mood, i don't want to ruin it. but the point i was making is that to start an army from scratch isn't really that expensive, comparatively, and not factoring in the fact that all gamers seem to have addictive personalities. the other thing about games workshop games, is the fact that you actually have somewhere to play them, somewhere obvious that you don't have to go searching for [i cannot for love nor money find a gaming club in my home town... i guess i don't look very hard though] games like warmachine don't have that kind of support, and in my oppinion, a game's only good if you can play it.
jeesus american prices scare the hell out of me, i know that they work out the same, but i guess in my head something being twice the cost of what it should just ain't right.
sports games bug me, i've never really seen the point in not just y'know, buying a ball.
   
Made in us
Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

Yes, yes it really is expensive to start an army from scratch. None of your posts support the opposite and are especially laughable when you whisk away substantial costs (like rulebooks, tools and hobby supplies), which artificially minimizes the cost getting into a GW game, and then compare it to completely different hobbies whose costs have been maximized to ridiculousness. Of *course* it's going to look cheaper that way! What are you going to do next, compare GW to a car and say it's cheaper than transportation or some other similarly unrealistic comparison?

To look at the costs objectively, it is necessary to look at similar products. In this case, other wargames, which quickly reveals that, yes, GW is siginificantly more expensive to get into. Especially from scratch. As already pointed out, a fully functional and competetive Warmachine army will cost no more than $200, and that includes the all the rules one needs to play. Flames of War is a little pricier, but still, for about $300 one can get a competetive army with the prerequisite rulebooks (and not some stolen pdf files which won't let you play at tourneys and most game stores).

But if you want to compare apples to oranges (ie: 40k to video games), not only do you have to include the miniatures and the rules, but you also have to include the hobby supplies necessary to build, paint and otherwise assemble a tabletop quality army for shop play. And we haven't even touched tables and terrain yet. Also, no backpeddaling to eBay or similar to reduce GW's significant costs, as you can do the same with console games and get them even cheaper. Actually, even without going to eBay one can find both the consoles and games themselves cheaper than you suggested, especially if you don't buy the latest game and instead look at releases a few months out. Still great games, but much, much cheaper. Plus, video games are usable right out of the box. Plug the console in, put in the game and viola! Instant video game gratification. Lastly, as far as time spent enjoying them, again, video games don't necessarily loose their luster. I still have scads of Win95/98 games I like, and my best friend's favorite video game still is Galaga. Yes. Galaga. From the 80's.

Then there are those of us who have been playing since the 80's. I remember when $20 not only got you a Rhino, it got you three! In the same box! $30? Two Land Raiders. Space Marines that were sculpted by the Perry brothers. As someone else already said, It's not really the prices, but how ridiculously often price hikes are shoved down the customer's throats. I know that I've long since stopped impulse buying things I don't need, and even if I "need" something, I will either buy from another mfgr (ie: Reaper, Rackham, Hasslefree etc..) or get the item via trade or deep discount somewhere.

OT Zone: A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villany
The Loyal Slave learns to Love the Lash! 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




if you want to get all wound up about video games then you might want to factor in the cost of buying a tv and paying your electricity bill. that wasn't the point, it was an off the cuff comparasin, drop the point already. there have been posts here that have listed a cost of about £100 or $200 for about a thousand points, i've been playing for a good few years, as have the people i play regularly, i don't own the 4th ed rules, and none of them own the 3rd, yet, somehow, miraculously, we manage to play weekly. i've never been charged to play in a games workshop store, and they've never told me that i *have* to have my own rulebook, and i don't own [or have pirated pdfs, if thyat's what you're about to say] the codexes for half the armies i play. the cost of paint is a lot, but after the initial outlay, they last a hell of a long time, and if you want to save cash, you can get similar [not as good, but adequate for a fraction of the price] results from a box of regular acrylics. i don't buy my tools or glue from games workshop, same reason i don't buy my space marines from a hardware store.
as for instant gratification, if you don't enjoy building and painting the models, play heroclix. i've said that i don't agree with some of the pricing, and the increases, why are you trying to make an arguement out of it? calm down. one point that you've conveniently skipped over was that i, working behind a till in a store, on minimum wage, can get an army after 2 weekends work. 3 if i'm starting the hobby from scratch. i'm aware that everyone has bills, and other things to spend their money on, but no one buys a new force every 3 weeks anyway. if this is too personal, i apologise, but if you've been playing since the '80s, that puts you in you 30s at a guess, which makes me wonder why you're trying to start petty arguements with someone roughly half your age.
i know that it's possible to also get a thousand points worth of the most expensive models in an army, and end up paying through the nose, and probably any other availaible orofice, but i've always had more fun converting models, and using an army that relies on the basic troops available to it. maybe you should try it some time.
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





A bizarre array of focusing mirrors and lenses turning my phrases into even more accurate clones of

Here's the thing with Warmachine. People who start buy EVERYTHING.

And then they spent as much, if not more, than they spent on a 40k army


But see, that's $500 for access to the ENTIRE game. You need to pay nearly $10k (say $500 average to get options for each army and including side-armies like 13th company and LATD) to get access to the entire 40k or Fantasy game. Maybe in a decade Warhammer 40k will be true to its name: costs $40k to play the whole thing.

WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS

2009, Year of the Dog
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




surely it's a bit unfair comparing a game with what, 7 armies? [including hordes?], with one that has about a dozen, not including the myriad varient forces, i honestly don't know much about warmachine in the states, but in my local stor4e, the stuff's about as expensive as 40k, to have a numerically comparable army, it'd cost pretty much the same. that said, i don't know anything about the rules, and if you can even use an army the same size as your average 40k force, so don't start having a go at me over that. warmachine character models are a lot cheaper though... and much nicer. quite why anyone would want to play all the [at a guess, probably about 50] forces in 40k is beyond me, but yeah, if you're doing every force, to say 2k, and spending say £250 on them [that's factoring in buying some metal, and expensive shibby rather than converting] then yeah, it would cost hideous amounts, but the suggestion's as absurd as saying that you want to play pokemon, so you must buy a plasma screen and every console that it ever came out on.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




i realise after a few second's retrospect that i did moan about video game analogies in my last post. oops.
   
Made in us
Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

Posted By 6ix on 08/23/2006 9:07 AM
if you want to get all wound up about video games then you might want to factor in the cost of buying a tv and paying your electricity bill. that wasn't the point, it was an off the cuff comparasin, drop the point already. there have been posts here that have listed a cost of about £100 or $200 for about a thousand points, i've been playing for a good few years, as have the people i play regularly, i don't own the 4th ed rules, and none of them own the 3rd, yet, somehow, miraculously, we manage to play weekly. i've never been charged to play in a games workshop store, and they've never told me that i *have* to have my own rulebook, and i don't own [or have pirated pdfs, if thyat's what you're about to say] the codexes for half the armies i play. the cost of paint is a lot, but after the initial outlay, they last a hell of a long time, and if you want to save cash, you can get similar [not as good, but adequate for a fraction of the price] results from a box of regular acrylics. i don't buy my tools or glue from games workshop, same reason i don't buy my space marines from a hardware store.
as for instant gratification, if you don't enjoy building and painting the models, play heroclix. i've said that i don't agree with some of the pricing, and the increases, why are you trying to make an arguement out of it? calm down. one point that you've conveniently skipped over was that i, working behind a till in a store, on minimum wage, can get an army after 2 weekends work. 3 if i'm starting the hobby from scratch. i'm aware that everyone has bills, and other things to spend their money on, but no one buys a new force every 3 weeks anyway. if this is too personal, i apologise, but if you've been playing since the '80s, that puts you in you 30s at a guess, which makes me wonder why you're trying to start petty arguements with someone roughly half your age.
i know that it's possible to also get a thousand points worth of the most expensive models in an army, and end up paying through the nose, and probably any other availaible orofice, but i've always had more fun converting models, and using an army that relies on the basic troops available to it. maybe you should try it some time.


Laffeaux! I'm actually quite calm and not taking this personal at all. You, quite to the contrary, most apparently are, as this post makes very apparent, filled with personal jabs, logical fallacies and more of the general rubbish your previous posts have displayed. If you don't like having your thin arguments cut to shreds, don't post them. For example, how was I to know you are roughly half my age? Through psychicly divination? Through deducting by the posts of ludicrous and unsubstantiated claims on the internet? which I, and others, have refuted repeatedly? Nor am I starting a petty argument, something that was all of your own doing. Afterall, all but one of your posts here at Dakka have been in this very thread, which you, not I, started.

But now that you do mention your age, everything now makes sense. Of course you think that GW games are affordable. It's easy to do when you're living with mommy and daddy paying for all the important things. None of your money has to go towards any significant expenses. Like rent or a mortgage, utilities, transportation, those kind of necessities. It's magnificently liberating when someone else takes care of all those "little" things! Too bad the vast majority of us aren't in that boat and have to work for a living.


OT Zone: A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villany
The Loyal Slave learns to Love the Lash! 
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

GW games are affordable as long as your list isn't flavourful: Lets look at a few of the fluffy side lists which are horrendously expensive:

Off the top of my head: ~ Roughly 1700 points

Iyanden Eldar
30x Wraithguard @ $18/ea
3x Wraithlords @ $40/ea
3x Vypers @ $40/ea
Farseer @ $16/ea
3 Warlocks @ $12/ea
--------------------------------------
Total: $814 CDN

Witchunters:
1x Cannoness @ $18
50x Sisters of Battle @ $50/box (Stormbolter/Flamer)
3x Excorcists @ $50/box (Whirlwinds on the cheap)
2x Immolators @ $45/box
10x Seraphim @ $45/box
6x Special Weapons Sisters @ $16/blister
4x Heavy Weapons Sisters @ $16/blister
--------------------------------------
Total: $758 CDN

Saim Hann Vyper Host: Using Codex Eldar
1x Farseer @ $16
20 Guardians @ $45/box
4x Weapon Platforms @ $30/each (holy WTF GW!)
9x Vypers @ $40/each
Miscelaneous Heavy Weapons Bitz @ $50
3x Falcon Grav Tank @ $50
--------------------------------------
Total: $741 CDN

ARGH. All I can say is ARGH.
   
Made in us
Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

Yep, as soon as you even consider stuff with metal bitz or big vehicles and *BAM!* up shoots the price (which already ain't too cheap).

OT Zone: A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villany
The Loyal Slave learns to Love the Lash! 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




40K is a cheap hobby. If you don't like it, don't indulge in it. The majority of people don't have a problem with price rises, they have a problem with paying out money. Any money. GW could release a new range of miniatures that were free and dispensed beer on demand, and people would complain that they didn't like the taste, and it wasn't like that in the old days.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




you're right, you weren't to know my age, the point i was making was that you were being somewhat childish in your recent responses. financially, the point is pretty much moot, i pay for everything but accomodation and food, but i have a 2 day a week job on minimum wage, unless you're also earning the same, you should have a fair bit more disposable income than me. again, not the point. sorry that i was kinda abrasive in the post directed at you, i was somewhat irritated that you chose to pick holes in any point *not* directly related to what i was saying. i'd appreciate it if you let the hostility go, and actually provided a reasonable criticism of the games workshop army pricing related points in the last post[s]
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

Posted By spikydavid on 08/23/2006 3:51 PM
40K is a cheap hobby. If you don't like it, don't indulge in it. The majority of people don't have a problem with price rises, they have a problem with paying out money. Any money. GW could release a new range of miniatures that were free and dispensed beer on demand, and people would complain that they didn't like the taste, and it wasn't like that in the old days.

I think you have it backwards, people in this hobby don't mind putting out their money.  They would like to get value their money. 

Price rises combined with shoddily written rules, poor tournament support and terrible FAQs does not make good value.  I have personally spent near $1K on Warmachine, (which would have normally gone to GW) - and I got 3 tournament sized armies in 3 factions out of it.  (3 warcasters each faction, for the un-initiated each warcaster provides "sub-dex" like play value).

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




the only thing discouraging me from WM is the lack of places to play it... if the rules are really that good i'll have to look into it.
spikydavid, i've gotta say that you are kinda wrong, no one likes price rises, and it's not exactly cheap, i was just saying that it's not world cripplingly expensive like some would have you believe...
keezus, and a fair few others actually, the only shoddy set of rules is the 4th ed [or as i prefer, 3rd ed minus fun] not saying that 40k's perfect, and i haven't compared it to that many other systems, but it's still fun, which is surely the point?
when did games workshop stop having sales? i remember, i think it was when 6th ed fantasy came out there was a massive sale on old fantasy stuff in my store... what happened?
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut






In da Mekshop

One good thing about the rise in prices of GW products over the years - resale.

I had a sizable Tyranid army I just wasn't playing. It would have cost me $800 + to buy it now, but I bought most of it back when the Gaunts and Warriors plastics were new. They were about $16 or so then. Thanks to GW's artificial price rises, I sold my army for a bit more than I paid for it.

But that's about the only good thing.

Warmachine is about $200 huh? I have Warmachine: Prime and Hordes: Primal, but not sure if I want to try to get into something else when I'm trying to juggle 4 40k armies. Maybe if some of my friends played...

-GrimTeef-
Proud mod of The-Waaagh forum and Vice-President of the Brian Nelson is a Sculpting God Club 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Your first army will be 200. The rest of your money will go into increasing your options
and possibly extend into other factions.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




how small can you start from, with warmachine or hordes? [although getting my friends into new stuff is like pulling teeth]
   
Made in us
Mechanithrall




The bare minimum to get started for WARMACHINE is $40 for the boxed set for the faction of your choice. It comes with quick start rules and they're designed to be played against each other. Hordes is $50 for the boxed set, and it comes with quick start rules. HORDES boxed sets are designed to be played against each other, as well, however, HORDES boxed sets aren't designed to be played against WARMACHINE boxed sets. HORDES generally run 280-300 points and the WARMACHINE boxed sets run around 310 pts.

500 points is the "standard" game size and will run you between $100 and $150 for both games. They both scale up very well and I really like 750-1000 pt games. One of the best things about it is BALANCE. You're not at a disadvantage just because you choose a particular faction...

Knight
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




all i've got to do now is decide whether i prefer the circle or khador... ooh, or cryx, purely for the witch coven and floating ball thingy [it's a technical term, ok?!] damn, i think any will i had to get a fantasy army just got evicted. *mutters*
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






$400 to $600 was the listed cost, by GW's own numbers. And that was a year or two ago...

If you don't like it, there's always ebay and online stores...

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Looking for the Empire spearmen from the Warhammer sixth edition box set (empire vs orcs) Must be unpainted and in good condition. Also looking for MIB Empire State Troops boxes.

Looking for Battle for Macragge and Black Reach Tactical squads, unpainted and unassembled. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dives with Horses

As a bit of a side note, if you buy and sell right, you can keep your total investment to a minimum, I have about $2k out in to 40k right now and have a massive marine army (about 20k points, 18k of so of which I am goiing to sell soon and figure I can get $1500 for) about 2500pts of Dark Eldar, about 4000pts of Tau, somewhere in the realm of 2000pts of Orks and a bit less than 1000pts of eldar (not a playable army though)

The secret is this, buy ANYTHING that comes along really cheap (I don't know about the US but in Canada GW does auctions where you can buy at about 10% to 15% of retail and then re-sell for 2x-3x that depending on unit) Then you have stuff to trade and re-sell. I make enough money with my business to just buy whatever army I want but I now keep a 40k purse where I can sell out of and then buy more of something I want.

Drano doesn't exactly scream "toy" to me.

engine

 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in southern England.

Comparing a wargame with golf or photography is not a valid comparison. It should be compared with other wargames.

40K is the most expensive wargame I've ever played, but it's within reach of anyone with a decent job and a bit of patience.

You can reduce the cost by careful buying (on eBay) and reselling. Battleforces and army boxes are usually good value and you can sell on or swap the extra parts you don't want.

Secondhand figures can be used straight off if they are nicely painted, or they can be stripped for repainting.

I'm still surprised when I think just how much it could cost to build a good size force at GW shop prices.

Petition to stop ratification of EU Article 13 on Internet Copyright

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





One thing I never understood is the people who have five or six armies and complain that the prices are so high that they're not going to buy a seventh. I've only got one army for 40k and will soon have one for Fantasy, and that's it. Every once in a while I consider starting another, but then I look at the price tag and come to my senses.

And for the record, not everyone buys all the factions for Warmachine, either. Most people I know have two: their main one, and the alternate 'rainy day' one.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







The new Armies of Immoren (Warmachine/Hordes armybuilder) has a "calculate value" option.

My Protectorate of Menoth army (1 of each with some doubles and full squads) is 800 bucks.
The army I'm playing today (500 points) is 171 bucks.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
 
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