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The OWS is only a movement because the Tea Party is a polar opposite movement. Either way, people want to keep more of their own money. You can add all the rhetoric you like, you are never going to stop people from wanting to keep more of their own money.

Funny everything I see from OWS is that they want government to pay for their stuff. That means me paying for them, so no they are quite different.


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reds8n wrote:

daedalus wrote:

Prior to this comment, I kind of just pictured you being some infirm guy in nursing home somewhere, convinced that "the War" never ended.

This is progress though. This time last year he was disputing the result of the Battle of Bosworth field.

Baby steps and all that.

Scipio was over rated. I'll just leave it at that.

oh please, tell me how you came to that conclusion? What do the dirty, stinky, pinko commies want for free from the taxpayer?

You want to keep your own money, so do I.

oh please, tell me how you came to that conclusion? What do the dirty, stinky, pinko commies want for free from the taxpayer?

Free health care
Free college education
Free "living wage of $20 an hour regardless of position or even employement (how does that work out?)
Forgiveness of all loans for..everyone...everywhere.

The Occupied Houston crowd even wanted free power, tents, and water for their protest from City Hall (which means I pay for them).

If you are concerned about their welfare and hygiene there are plenty of places you can go to donate water, food, toothbrushes, etc to the cause. I appreciate your concern for the protesters welfare.

Seriously? I'm not concern at all. Again piss poor planning from individuals who are protesting. Water like a dollar...since they're camping..or were camping they had spicket water. Food....WTF Chuck McD's have a dollar menu, toothbrushes...are freaking kidding me? I wash my teeth with toothpaste on my fingers before and shower with bottle waters. Unbelievable. I swear if I see a OWS donation person near a Salvation Army donation person I will purposedly go out my way and get a $100 bill. Walk by the OWS person and literally show them the hundred as I walk by and drop it into the Salvation ARMY donation kettle.

SERIOUSLY?

dsteingass wrote:oh please, tell me how you came to that conclusion? What do the dirty, stinky, pinko commies want for free from the taxpayer?

You want to keep your own money, so do I.

Let's see:

Paraphrased from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-hayat/occupy-wall-street_b_1089079.html
Debt forgiveness for student loans
Free healthcare
Wealth redistribution
Forgive all debt/loans

Note some of their communist and anarchist inspired imagery: http://www.occupytogether.org/downloadable-posters/




Visit any of their actual websites. Note they do NOT make clear identifiable demands...

Any other questions?

Jihadin wrote:

If you are concerned about their welfare and hygiene there are plenty of places you can go to donate water, food, toothbrushes, etc to the cause. I appreciate your concern for the protesters welfare.

Seriously? I'm not concern at all. Again piss poor planning from individuals who are protesting. Water like a dollar...since they're camping..or were camping they had spicket water. Food....WTF Chuck McD's have a dollar menu, toothbrushes...are freaking kidding me? I wash my teeth with toothpaste on my fingers before and shower with bottle waters. Unbelievable. I swear if I see a OWS donation person near a Salvation Army donation person I will purposedly go out my way and get a $100 bill. Walk by the OWS person and literally show them the hundred as I walk by and drop it into the Salvation ARMY donation kettle.

SERIOUSLY?

Dude seriously????

Get 100 $1 bills instead. Show each one to the OWS guy and then put it in the SA pot.

For the record SA has one of the highest actual donation % vs. overhead of any charity. Momma Frazzled was a hard core supporter of SA.

So in your opinion is the OWS is an agendaless Communist plot?

dsteingass wrote:So in your opinion is the OWS is a union supported street show?

Corrected your typo

I like that better Frazz....bring the weiner dog to the Fort

oh, Unions are Communists?

Dakkadan wrote:

Jihadin wrote:

God I can't wait for old age to mercifully bring the last baby boomer down

Are we not a product from those generations?

Nope I was raised by my grandparents. My baby Boomer parents were too busy seeking out the American dream to be parents. As so many other baby boomers chose to do as well judging by the choked Foster kid programs all over when I was a kid. My theory is baby boomers are most of what's wrong with this country. I could be wrong but since frazzled was generalizing a whole group of people I thought I'd give it a go as well.

@Frazzled no I don't think you're a baby Boomer (actually I hadn't considered it). I don't wish you would die of old age really. I was trying to find the silliest comparison generalization that I could. Not to say that I think you should die of old age.

Who raised your parents?

Frazzled wrote:
Yea but are talking cool, beret wearing cigarette smoking anti corporatist, or more of the ragey Chavista type?

Probably a mix of both, with some reasonable opposition to state-business collusion thrown in.

dsteingass wrote:oh, Unions are Communists?

Only Soviet ones.

<text redacted; you should understand that I would cheerfully fight for your right to free speech in the face of government action, but Dakka is a private entity - we're free to enforce restrictions on your language that the government is prohibited from doing; post politely, or you'll begin losing the privilege of posting at all --Janthkin>

Frazzled wrote:

dsteingass wrote:oh, Unions are Communists?

Only Soviet ones.

That makes me want to put on sunglasses and have Daltry scream "YEEEEEAAAAA..."

TheHammer wrote:When people are getting sexually excited by the thought of assaulting their fellow citizens am I allowed to call those people fascists? Between that and their "might makes right" attitude and I seriously can not think of any other word.

Also, it's cute that I get censored for calling such people out for their ugliness yet the whole thread is full of these people putting down the OWS and its people. Maybe I'm the only one to have gone to participate, but there appears to be a little bit of a double standard.

It's also cute that my entire post was modified.

My point remains. The very fascists in this thread that get sexually excited by the thoughts of using water canons on their fellow citizens would also want to do the same for the Sit Ins during the Civil Rights Movement. Or is there a huge difference I'm not seeing? Both groups are breaking the law to do what they think is best.

This might be helpful. Dakka rule #1 is be polite. That means be polite to other posters and mods (except Malfred and Alpharius, unless you're ok with sterno drinkers they are free game). Trashing ethnicities is bad. Trashing genders is bad. Trashing nationalities is bad (Liechtenstein in general and the willingness of France to surrender being obvious exceptions).
trashing religions outside the OT is bad. Trashing the great of Her Mauleed is bad.

Of course as I've seen placards and chants by OWS members stating they want to harm Bankers (saw one the other day in person that said Zionist Bankers... ) I guess I could call them Nazis too.

dogma wrote:
That's not strictly true. Effective initiatives for political change (protests, revolutions, whatever) generally start with a core group of people who have a specific agenda in mind. There people then work to communicate their agenda to more people, hopefully motivating them to action. You don't simply stir up resentment with respect to the system without first presenting a coherent, alternative vision. If you do you run the risk having your work co-opted by political opportunists (this happened, to some extent, with the Tea Party, and is happening to OWS), which ultimately leads to, at best, a broken political movement and at worst an especially messy transition.

In the old days. You are correct. Now days, things can be a bit more bottom up, with less hierarchy thanks to the internet.

Modern organizational structures don;t have to be so top-down focused. Instead, they can focus more on integrated effort, cooperation, many power sources, and nonhierarchical networks. That's part of the communication revolution.

dogma wrote:
They have provided insight to people who follow political issues, now they have to inspire commitment from large numbers of largely non-political people.

I've not seen much insight in anything done by any member of OWS. Its anti-corporatist, which is nice, but no more insightful (or important) than the Adbusters magazine that initially inspired the movement. In fact, I would argue that OWS has largely failed to communicate a message of any significance to people that follow political issues, and has instead skipped straight to what you call the "inspire commitment" phase; which is largely why its such a mess.

Perhaps. But the discussion is no longer exclusively about debit reduction and slashing entitlements. Now, wealth and income inequality has re-entered the discussion.

At least for the short term.

Edit: @TheHammer- You are not the only one here who has been to an occupation site.

daedalus wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

dsteingass wrote:oh, Unions are Communists?

Only Soviet ones.

That makes me want to put on sunglasses and have Daltry scream "YEEEEEAAAAA..."

So, since the stated intent for this afternoon is disruption of NYC subway services, who would the victims be if this goal is met? Does it hurt the "1%" or the workers of NYC and the surounding areas?

Maybe I'm the only one to have gone to participate, but there appears to be a little bit of a double standard.

Not I. Everyone will agree I want the water cannon to wash away OWS

Easy E wrote:
In the old days. You are correct. Now days, things can be a bit more bottom up, with less hierarchy thanks to the internet.

You're not understanding what we're saying.

It's not just about the structure of your organization.

If OWS rubbed a magic lamp and got 3 system changing wishes, what would those wishes be? It doesn't seem like anyone knows.

If you don't have an endgame, you do not have a protest. You have to have a victory condition. What constitutes winning? If you don't have that, you can't work toward it.


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TheHammer wrote:
My point remains. The very fascists in this thread that get sexually excited by the thoughts of using water canons on their fellow citizens would also want to do the same for the Sit Ins during the Civil Rights Movement.

This is really quite insulting to me. Please leave.

I've seen LaRouche signs at the OWS. I've seen Ron Paul signs at the OWS. I've seen people talking about wanting to organize American kibbutzim at the OWS. I've seen Latino and African nationalists at the OWS. I've seen people who only care about gay rights or the legalization of marijuana at the OWS. I've seen antisemites at the OWS. I've seen burnt out hippies wanting to relive their glory days at the OWS. I've seen IWW people at the OWS. I've seen single mothers who can not afford to raise their kids at the OWS. I've seen steel workers and truckers at the OWS.

Basically, I've seen a ton of different viewpoints and people there. Some of the views expressed there are insane. Many of the views expressed there are contradictory with other members.

The whole movement is a bit of a chimera in that you will see what you want to see in it.

For what it's worth I see a lot of people that have become increasingly alienated in our culture who are finding a community to feel a part of. That's the big take away from.

Of course I'd rather the OWS "movement" represented a desire to smash capitalism but that's simply not what it's about. There are people there with that as their goal, but it is far from the universal message.

When people like you try to paint the entire group with the ugliest of its members you are being petty and intellectually dishonest. Stop it, it's pretty awful of you.

When you talk in a way that reflects the most ugly and fascist of attitudes, views, and aesthetics it is you that owns those words. When I call you out on it it is because of the words you have typed.

When you try to paint a group you have a reactionary hatred for with the ugliest of the bunch it is because you are trying to score cheap points on the internet.


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Rented, do you get excited by the thought of using a water canon on people who are exercising their First Amendment rights? Do you imagine yourself wearing a brown shirt when you do this assault? I mean, if my bringing this up insults you I think the problem is with you and not with me.

<3

TheHammer wrote:
When you try to paint a group you have a reactionary hatred for with the ugliest of the bunch it is because you are trying to score cheap points on the internet.

You have, IN THIS THREAD, called me a nazi and a fascist.

You simply have no right to talk about "cheap points"

CptJake wrote:So, since the stated intent for this afternoon is disruption of NYC subway services, who would the victims be if this goal is met? Does it hurt the "1%" or the workers of NYC and the surounding areas?

This is a stupid decision if that's actually their stated intent, and not merely a hyperbolic piece of crap like most of the trash spewed out in to this thread.

If their intent is to shut down the subway to inconvenience someone, then that's dumb.

If their intent is to get arrested shutting down the subway system so they can get some attention, that's smart.

TheHammer wrote:
I also do not believe I have called you a Nazi. As a Jewish guy with family ties to how horrible the Holocaust was that is not a line I would cross with a child on the internet.

Yes, asking if someone likes brown shirts in that context is calling them a Nazi. We're not stupid. You called me a Nazi.

TheHammer wrote:
Of course I'd rather the OWS "movement" represented a desire to smash capitalism but that's simply not what it's about.

Its ironical that you screel that on a capitalist designed, manufactured, and marketed computer, using evil capitalist software, on an evil capitalist network, first envirioned by a military who's purpose is to keep the evil imperialist capitlaist dogs in power.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

Frazzled wrote:

TheHammer wrote:
Of course I'd rather the OWS "movement" represented a desire to smash capitalism but that's simply not what it's about.

Its ironical that you screel that on a capitalist designed, manufactured, and marketed computer, using evil capitalist software, on an evil capitalist network, first envirioned by a military who's purpose is to keep the evil imperialist capitlaist dogs in power.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

Dunno about ironic, but I think that our capitalistic system merely needs a reform, not a complete revolution. Capitalism at least mostly works, communism almost never works outside of tiny communes.

Melissia wrote:

CptJake wrote:So, since the stated intent for this afternoon is disruption of NYC subway services, who would the victims be if this goal is met? Does it hurt the "1%" or the workers of NYC and the surounding areas?

This is a stupid decision if that's actually their stated intent, and not merely a hyperbolic piece of crap like most of the trash spewed out in to this thread.

Not sure how else to interpret their website:

http://occupywallst.org/

We are gathering at 3PM today at subway stations across the five burroughs. We will occupy the subway, and convene at Foley Square tonight at 5PM.

And this evening they intend to block bridges: http://occupywallst.org/action/november-17th/