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 Soladrin wrote:
What I seem to be getting out of this is that American culture has a lot of fear ingrained into it for some reason. :\

Yeah, I realize the majority of gun owners are probably doing it primarily for recreational use, but there does seem to be a culture of needing to defend yourself from everything on your own.

It's kind sad to look at it from the outside really, I don't trust my government to handle economics and all that stuff properly most of the time. But I do damn well trust them to keep me safe.

I don't think it's a fear thing as much as it's a practical thing. I get the impression that a lot of European Dakkaites (and even urban-dwelling American Dakkaites) are forgetting how many American gun-owners live in rural areas. If something bad happens where most of my family lives, the police are not going to arrive in time to stop it. It's not as much not trusting the government to keep you safe as much as recognizing if something bad goes down, you are going to be on your own for a significant amount of time.

 Soladrin wrote:
What I seem to be getting out of this is that American culture has a lot of fear ingrained into it for some reason. :\

Yeah, I realize the majority of gun owners are probably doing it primarily for recreational use, but there does seem to be a culture of needing to defend yourself from everything on your own.

It's kind sad to look at it from the outside really, I don't trust my government to handle economics and all that stuff properly most of the time. But I do damn well trust them to keep me safe.

I wouldn't call it "fear" for most of us... just a strong sense of Distrtust.

Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

 Soladrin wrote:
Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

None of us are certain that something bad will happen, but many of us recognize the possibility. Many of us also recognize that the possibility of coming into a situation where a gun would be useful is a lot higher in the US than it is in the Netherlands, and I'm not even just talking about self-defense either.


I'm not sure how that makes the USA a particularly fearful society.

 Soladrin wrote:
Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

Looks at Soladrin's map...

Looks at Whembly's map...

You have 16+ million people in Netherlands...

US has 300+ million people...

Bad gak happens.

 Soladrin wrote:
Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

Again, can't speak for all americans here, but I'm NOT certain that something bad things will happen... it's just rather more that I'd rather be prepared for bad things to happen, and not need those preparations, than for something to happen, and not be prepared.

For me personally, I KNOW that I can handle myself in any situation. This is more a result of things I've been through, and life choices, and hobbies etc. BUT, I am a parent of two, and I think that a tiny bit of fear of something happening to your kids especially will affect choices you make, and eventualities that you have to prepare for. I mean, most people would agree that it's a good idea to have a small stock of certain medications for when you or a loved one gets sick... This doesn't necessarily mean that you are afraid of getting sick (unless you let yourself become that way), just that you are thinking ahead.

 whembly wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

Looks at Soladrin's map...

Looks at Whembly's map...

You have 16+ million people in Netherlands...

US has 300+ million people...

Bad gak happens.

Now look at population density and come back to me.

 Soladrin wrote:

Now look at population density and come back to me.

Well... when you have more liberal drugs and prostitutions...

No wonder ya'll get along more.

 Hordini wrote:
I'm not sure how that makes the USA a particularly fearful society.

It doesn't.

I'm going to simply reject the premise of this line of conversation, given that the motive behind gun control could easily be argued as being "fear" which could then be extrapolated to show that gun-control supporters from other countries are similarly fearful.

 whembly wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:

Now look at population density and come back to me.

Well... when you have more liberal drugs and prostitutions...

No wonder ya'll get along more.

That's it!!!! instead of Gun-control laws, America needs to have Prostitue-control laws (and not an outright ban!)

I wouldn't say I'm any more fearful or paranoid for carrying a pistol during my day to day then I would say I'm fearful/paranoid for keeping a roadside emergency/standed kit in my car, or having a first aid kit and fire extinguisher in the house.

 Soladrin wrote:
I'm curious now. Why do Americans have such MASSIVE trust issues with their own Governments? (apart from the fact that almost everyone outside of America thinks your politicians are absolutely bonkers anyway)

We were founded by people who disliked governments. Its almost like the saw RED when any government dude in a COAT wandered by.

I remember Abe Lincoln when he went back in time to kick ass at Yorktown.
"Four score and seven years ago, we kicked royal ass. If those haggis throwing bad teethed turkeys show up again, we'll call on all red blooded pickup drivin Texas rednecks to stop Yamamoto, King George, and those accursed Liechtensteinians in one fell swoop, or my name aint Honest Abe! Now after I take themissus to a show I'm going to go kick the great great granpda of Adolph Hitler right in the baby maker. Hey Grant, get me a brewski."

 Soladrin wrote:
Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

Jos, this is a picture that was taken of me on Saturday, do you see how "bare" the surrounding area is? I was in a town of 1,500. the closest town is 30 minutes away. The house I was at had at least 5 guns and a few shotguns. A few of those were for the purpose of hunting game for sport and food. Some of them were for protection, because much like the closest city was 30 minutes away... so was the closest police and emergency medical service...

The "when seconds count, the police are just minutes away" saying might just be a joke, but we have places where the cops are far enough away that you don't think about even calling them, because they won't get there in time to do anything...

 Soladrin wrote:
Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

You don't live next to the war zone that is Mexico, or the Mordorlike terror that is Canada. Cruel Canada and its monopoly of maple syrup. Curse You!

 Alfndrate wrote:
The "when seconds count, the police are just minutes away" saying might just be a joke,

It's not a very funny one where I live When I've had to call 9/11 before; and it reliably takes them 25 minutes to get here best case.

 Soladrin wrote:
Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

Because it has happened for various values of 'bad' to me and to people I know.

I have had situations where a firearm was THE correct tool for the job, and other occasions where it was a very useful tool though I could have made do without. Not all 'self defense' as in there was a bad guy. A few times it involved something threatening my horses for example. A couple of years ago a cougar took out two cattle less than a mile away from my property. Think I want to wait for the deputy to show up if something like that is mauling my animals? Or worse, threatens my child? The copperhead in the front yard that almost got one of the dogs, well he met Mr. Mossberg. The moccasin that decided to make the area of the pond where my daughter fishes and feeds the ducks his home? He met Mr Mossberg too.


I've also been very happy on a couple of occasions when I had a fire extinguisher and/or a damned good first aid kit. I keep a jack and a spare in each of our vehicles, as well as a flashlight because again, I have been in the situation where they were pretty danged important. When I owned a boat I kept a case of MREs and two 5-gallon jugs of fresh water on board. I once had a battery die at night while out in the ocean fishing and spent several hours drifting. That sucked and could have REALLY sucked.

Years in the military and years living in rural (and city) areas have taught me that it it always better to have and not need than need and not have. If you rely on first responders to PREVENT you being in a bad situation or to save you when they fail to prevent it, you are (in my opinion) an idiot. Self reliance is what every responsible adult should strive for.

Yeah I suppose my trauma grade first aid kit makes me paranoid right?

Then again I carry a military grade IFAC when I'm out hunting or shooting. Almost like I want to the tools to deal with gun shot wounds on hand in an environment I might take a bullet by accident.

Ah well I'm just a paranoid nutcase, what do I know?

Yeah I suppose my trauma grade first aid kit makes me paranoid right?

Then again I carry a military grade IFAC when I'm out hunting or shooting. Almost like I want to the tools to deal with gun shot wounds on hand in an environment I might take a bullet by accident.

Ah well I'm just a paranoid nutcase, what do I know?

Wait one.....having first aid kits make you paranoid now? Damn
1. I've a medic bag in my Yeti Wrangler Jeep
2. I've a Advance combat lifesaver bag in my Reg Wrangler Jeep
3. I've a Advance Combat Lifesaver bag in my Mistibishi Spyder
4. My IFAK is still on my bdy armor....with the "Needle of extreme confidence" in it.

What idioit said we're paranoid now? Isn't it like Federal Law for us to stop and render assistant if no one suitable is there? Besides I rather arrive on scene with everything I need that I might need.. Including those venom trauma bandages...Isreali bandage....The clotter bondage...torniquiet...IV solutions and set up...you name it I can hanle it from either vehicles. I piss on those bland first aid kits they sell for vehicles.

 Jihadin wrote:

Yeah I suppose my trauma grade first aid kit makes me paranoid right?

Then again I carry a military grade IFAC when I'm out hunting or shooting. Almost like I want to the tools to deal with gun shot wounds on hand in an environment I might take a bullet by accident.

Ah well I'm just a paranoid nutcase, what do I know?

Wait one.....having first aid kits make you paranoid now? Damn
1. I've a medic bag in my Yeti Wrangler Jeep
2. I've a Advance combat lifesaver bag in my Reg Wrangler Jeep
3. I've a Advance Combat Lifesaver bag in my Mistibishi Spyder
4. My IFAK is still on my bdy armor....with the "Needle of extreme confidence" in it.

What idioit said we're paranoid now? Isn't it like Federal Law for us to stop and render assistant if no one suitable is there? Besides I rather arrive on scene with everything I need that I might need.. Including those venom trauma bandages...Isreali bandage....The clotter bondage...torniquiet...IV solutions and set up...you name it I can hanle it from either vehicles. I piss on those bland first aid kits they sell for vehicles.

Where do you get those kits? I'm in the market!

No Whembly you cannot have mine. In fact you've seen one of mine if you remember the thread on females serving as 11B thread....posted all my gear I typically carry out the wire...think we came up with 120 lbs approx...compare to 150-200 lbs or something like that. One off the advance Lifesaver bag was in it. Also the IFAK...torniqet can be seen....had a velcro patch of Achmed saying "I KKKEEELLLLL YYOOOUUU" on it

I'm curious now. Why do Americans have such MASSIVE trust issues with their own Governments? (apart from the fact that almost everyone outside of America thinks your politicians are absolutely bonkers anyway)

Errr....Not meaning to be a <CENSORED> here, but did you not just answer your own question? Why do you assume that the above is limited to people OUTSIDE of the USA?

because much like the closest city was 30 minutes away... so was the closest police and emergency medical service...

Doesn't really get any better in the city. Between time getting the call out in the first place (Hold on, don't hit me with that crowbar, I have to get my cell phone! No, give it back!), getting the information through to dispatch, to dispatch routing units to you, to units actually A: Getting to the address and B: Not getting the wrong house or apartment through miscommunication or other human error ...you're still probably looking at 3-5 minutes, best case.

It does not take 3-5 minutes for one of them "Serious" fights to end if one is going to take place. Realistically no one is going to be there to help you, simply because you can't break the laws of physics and have a handful of people cover as much area as officers tend to get tasked with, and also respond quick enough to swoop in and catch the brick about to cave your face in. This being an acceptable state or not is irrelevant, this is your situation.

 Jihadin wrote:

Yeah I suppose my trauma grade first aid kit makes me paranoid right?

Then again I carry a military grade IFAC when I'm out hunting or shooting. Almost like I want to the tools to deal with gun shot wounds on hand in an environment I might take a bullet by accident.

Ah well I'm just a paranoid nutcase, what do I know?

Wait one.....having first aid kits make you paranoid now? Damn
1. I've a medic bag in my Yeti Wrangler Jeep
2. I've a Advance combat lifesaver bag in my Reg Wrangler Jeep
3. I've a Advance Combat Lifesaver bag in my Mistibishi Spyder
4. My IFAK is still on my bdy armor....with the "Needle of extreme confidence" in it.

What idioit said we're paranoid now? Isn't it like Federal Law for us to stop and render assistant if no one suitable is there? Besides I rather arrive on scene with everything I need that I might need.. Including those venom trauma bandages...Isreali bandage....The clotter bondage...torniquiet...IV solutions and set up...you name it I can hanle it from either vehicles. I piss on those bland first aid kits they sell for vehicles.

I am jealous of your kit. I have an Army issue IFAC (very different from the one I had in the Corps) that I added some quick clot combat gauze to on my kit, my medic bag's a standard med kit (civilian type) that I've added the guts of my Corps issue IFAC to, plus gloves, bandages, more gauze, sport tape, cling wrap* and a good quality CPR mask to. Along with more combat gauze. I need to look into some Israeli combat bandages, those things are tits. Grabbing an ACL or two probably wouldn't be a terrible idea either.

*Honest note, I prefer making my own bandages with cling wrap and sterile gauze. Works so much better!

IV kits are helpful for hangovers...

Except I will never use mine to help someone get over a hangover 8). TThe med kits were under the table. Helped a NG unit deactivate while I was at Meade recovering. They had reg CL bags and the advance CL's and a couple medic bags...stocked....no records of them...no documents....no nothing...they were just there....and gone... oh and a roll of 550 cord and some hundred mile hour adhesive tape 8)

I always have 550 cord around, one billion uses and counting.

In the history of the world it seams many times governments have turned on their people. Having a large population that has guns and knows how to use them does make governments think twice about what they are doing. Governments should fear the people, not the other way around.

People think the military is blind obidience to orders. Term "I was following orders" des not save you under UCJ. I somewhat remember that incident that the NG troops were used in the weapon confiscation. If I remember correctly it was law enforcement that collected the weapons and forced people to vacate.. Troops were used to provide security and basically haul the the weapons. What got the NG involve was the threat of weapon fires as they conduct their missions be it air or ground. They did not like I said confiscate weapons from civilians...I might be wrong or the info I have is out of date....anyone remember the OP Order for that lol

 CptJake wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

Because it has happened for various values of 'bad' to me and to people I know.

I have had situations where a firearm was THE correct tool for the job, and other occasions where it was a very useful tool though I could have made do without. Not all 'self defense' as in there was a bad guy. A few times it involved something threatening my horses for example. A couple of years ago a cougar took out two cattle less than a mile away from my property. Think I want to wait for the deputy to show up if something like that is mauling my animals? Or worse, threatens my child? The copperhead in the front yard that almost got one of the dogs, well he met Mr. Mossberg. The moccasin that decided to make the area of the pond where my daughter fishes and feeds the ducks his home? He met Mr Mossberg too.


I've also been very happy on a couple of occasions when I had a fire extinguisher and/or a damned good first aid kit. I keep a jack and a spare in each of our vehicles, as well as a flashlight because again, I have been in the situation where they were pretty danged important. When I owned a boat I kept a case of MREs and two 5-gallon jugs of fresh water on board. I once had a battery die at night while out in the ocean fishing and spent several hours drifting. That sucked and could have REALLY sucked.

Years in the military and years living in rural (and city) areas have taught me that it it always better to have and not need than need and not have. If you rely on first responders to PREVENT you being in a bad situation or to save you when they fail to prevent it, you are (in my opinion) an idiot. Self reliance is what every responsible adult should strive for.

See, to me those things aren't the same. I have a jack, first aid kit and flashlight (some of which you are bound by law to have) in my car too, a gun isn't something that belongs on that list for me. Also, since there's next to no guns in this country, crime involving fire arms is extremely low (and crime in general I guess but I don't think that's related to fire arms). Almost all gun related crimes I can recall here have been liquidations in the criminal circuit, which I couldn't give less of a feth about because I'm not in that target group.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I always have 550 cord around, one billion uses and counting.

Rappelling from the ceiling like Charlie Bronson? He's always got some rope.

Andrew1975 wrote:In the history of the world it seams many times governments have turned on their people. Having a large population that has guns and knows how to use them does make governments think twice about what they are doing. Governments should fear the people, not the other way around.

I understand this is a comforting thought, but do you honestly believe that if the US government turned lets-turn-the-military-on-the-civilians levels of hostile it would actually care about private citizens with firearms? The US government currently spends 40% of the total military spending in the entire world.

 Soladrin wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
Then, why are you all so certain that something bad will happen? :\

I know for a fact that in my country the chance of coming into situation where a gun would be benificial for my self defense is next to 0.

Because it has happened for various values of 'bad' to me and to people I know.

I have had situations where a firearm was THE correct tool for the job, and other occasions where it was a very useful tool though I could have made do without. Not all 'self defense' as in there was a bad guy. A few times it involved something threatening my horses for example. A couple of years ago a cougar took out two cattle less than a mile away from my property. Think I want to wait for the deputy to show up if something like that is mauling my animals? Or worse, threatens my child? The copperhead in the front yard that almost got one of the dogs, well he met Mr. Mossberg. The moccasin that decided to make the area of the pond where my daughter fishes and feeds the ducks his home? He met Mr Mossberg too.


I've also been very happy on a couple of occasions when I had a fire extinguisher and/or a damned good first aid kit. I keep a jack and a spare in each of our vehicles, as well as a flashlight because again, I have been in the situation where they were pretty danged important. When I owned a boat I kept a case of MREs and two 5-gallon jugs of fresh water on board. I once had a battery die at night while out in the ocean fishing and spent several hours drifting. That sucked and could have REALLY sucked.

Years in the military and years living in rural (and city) areas have taught me that it it always better to have and not need than need and not have. If you rely on first responders to PREVENT you being in a bad situation or to save you when they fail to prevent it, you are (in my opinion) an idiot. Self reliance is what every responsible adult should strive for.

See, to me those things aren't the same. I have a jack, first aid kit and flashlight (some of which you are bound by law to have) in my car too, a gun isn't something that belongs on that list for me. Also, since there's next to no guns in this country, crime involving fire arms is extremely low (and crime in general I guess but I don't think that's related to fire arms). Almost all gun related crimes I can recall here have been liquidations in the criminal circuit, which I couldn't give less of a feth about because I'm not in that target group.

I understand that guns are a lot less common in the Netherlands and your gun crime is pretty minimal, but you also understand that there are a hell of a lot more guns in the US than the Netherlands, right? And that our chances of running into a criminal with a gun are significantly higher? That's one of the big reasons guns are on the list for some of us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azazel the cat wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I always have 550 cord around, one billion uses and counting.

Rappelling from the ceiling like Charlie Bronson? He's always got some rope.

Andrew1975 wrote:In the history of the world it seams many times governments have turned on their people. Having a large population that has guns and knows how to use them does make governments think twice about what they are doing. Governments should fear the people, not the other way around.

I understand this is a comforting thought, but do you honestly believe that if the US government turned lets-turn-the-military-on-the-civilians levels of hostile it would actually care about private citizens with firearms? The US government currently spends 40% of the total military spending in the entire world.

The US government becoming hostile to the general population isn't the only situation in which private citizens might need use of their firearms. And any situation in which the government would become that hostile would be a lot more messy and complicated than just "U.S. government with all of the military vs. armed private citizens." The armed populace would likely be a factor, but it would be one factor among many. That doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to have an armed populace, however.