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So, in WHFB you get only slightly more dice if there's an equal amount of the same level wizards. If the army of the caster has a lot more wizards they gain the same advantage as in 40k it seems... If the dispelling army only has one high level wizard, does that change anything? Or can he keep on dispelling?

In 40k both get the same amount of "base" dice but instead there's a change to this equal to total amount of psychic levels in an army, so again an army with a lot of psykers has an advantage over the other army - so far it seems roughly the same as WHFB. Though in 40k the caster has three times the chance per die against an Deny the Witch attempt.

Could the biggest difference lie here? Meaning that the Deny the Witch attempt is much worse compared to the dispelling army in WHFB only getting an amount of dispell dice equal to one of the two dice?

Instead of a 3:1 ratio (manifesting against Deny the Witch) would a 2:1 or a 3:2 solve the problem and make the chances roughly like it's in WHFB?

Editted because of grammar.

Chaospling wrote:
So, in WHFB you get only slightly more dice if there's an equal amount of the same level wizards. If the army of the caster has a lot more wizards they gain the same advantage as in 40k it seems... If the dispelling army only has one high level wizard, does that change anything? Or can he keep on dispelling?

In 40k both get the same amount of "base" dice but instead there's a change to this equal to total amount of psychic levels in an army, so again an army with a lot of psykers has an advantage over the other army - so far it seems roughly the same as WHFB. Though in 40k the caster has three times the chance per die against an Deny the Witch attempt.

Could the biggest difference lie here? Meaning that the Deny the Witch attempt is much worse compared to the dispelling army in WHFB only getting an amount of dispell dice equal to one of the two dice?

Instead of a 3:1 ratio (manifesting against Deny the Witch) would a 2:1 or a 3:2 solve the problem and make the chances roughly like it's in WHFB?

Editted because of grammar.

If I understand what you are saying...no. You only get to channel once for each wizard and each channel grants you another spell die on a 6. When casting you only add the caster level of the wizard casting the spell. For example:

Casting player rolls his 2d6 for spell dice, he gets a 4 and a 2 so he gets 6 spell dice. His opponent gets 4 dispell dice. 6 to 4

The casting player has two casters and channel with both of them, he rolls a 3 and a 5 granting him no additional power dice. His opponent channels with his one wizard and gets a 6, granting him an additional power die. 6 to 5

So the casting player attempt a level 15 spell with his level 3 caster. He throws 4 dice at it and gets a 4, 5, 6, and a 1. 1+4+5+6+3= 19. He cast the spell.

His opponent has a level 4 caster that he attempts to dispell with, he throws all of his dice at it and gets 3, 3, 4, 2, and a 5. 3+3+4+2+5+4= 21. He dispells the spell.

But the casting player has 2 more spell dice to work with and do what ever he wants now that his opponent is out of dispell dice.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
So, in WHFB you get only slightly more dice if there's an equal amount of the same level wizards. If the army of the caster has a lot more wizards they gain the same advantage as in 40k it seems... If the dispelling army only has one high level wizard, does that change anything? Or can he keep on dispelling?

In 40k both get the same amount of "base" dice but instead there's a change to this equal to total amount of psychic levels in an army, so again an army with a lot of psykers has an advantage over the other army - so far it seems roughly the same as WHFB. Though in 40k the caster has three times the chance per die against an Deny the Witch attempt.

Could the biggest difference lie here? Meaning that the Deny the Witch attempt is much worse compared to the dispelling army in WHFB only getting an amount of dispell dice equal to one of the two dice?

Instead of a 3:1 ratio (manifesting against Deny the Witch) would a 2:1 or a 3:2 solve the problem and make the chances roughly like it's in WHFB?

Editted because of grammar.

If I understand what you are saying...no. You only get to channel once for each wizard and each channel grants you another spell die on a 6. When casting you only add the caster level of the wizard casting the spell. For example:

Casting player rolls his 2d6 for spell dice, he gets a 4 and a 2 so he gets 6 spell dice. His opponent gets 4 dispell dice. 6 to 4

The casting player has two casters and channel with both of them, he rolls a 3 and a 5 granting him no additional power dice. His opponent channels with his one wizard and gets a 6, granting him an additional power die. 6 to 5

So the casting player attempt a level 15 spell with his level 3 caster. He throws 4 dice at it and gets a 4, 5, 6, and a 1. 1+4+5+6+3= 19. He cast the spell.

His opponent has a level 4 caster that he attempts to dispell with, he throws all of his dice at it and gets 3, 3, 4, 2, and a 5. 3+3+4+2+5+4= 21. He dispells the spell.

But the casting player has 2 more spell dice to work with and do what ever he wants now that his opponent is out of dispell dice.

Sorry about my bad formulation though I think you understood me correctly.

Though my point was that it seems that the defensive side in 40k has a harder time than the defensive side in WHFB because of the Deny the Witch being much worse than manifesting a power compared to the spell/dispell dice ratio.

If we're looking at scenarios where there are an equal amount of wizards/psykers on each side then the biggest lead, in WHFB, is where a double is rolled for spell dice, so the casting player will get twice as many spell dice than the defensive side has dispell dice. If the players have an equal amount of equal level wizards and the players roll the same for channeling, the casting player can't improve his lead in dice which were 2:1.
In 40k it's the other way around, here's an equal amount of dice on each side but the casting/manifesting side have a lead of 3:1 because of the 4+ against 6+.

That's why I thought about reducing the "success" ratio for 40k could be a good idea, probably to 2:1, either by needing a 5+ to manifest or (because of Adamantium Will) change the manifest rolls to 3+ and Deny the Witch rolls to 5+.

Of course there's the scenarios with several casting wizards and no dispelling wizards, but the best chance of getting a better dice ratio for the casting player would be to roll a double 1 and even with 6 casting wizards as opposed to 0 dispelling wizards the casting player will, through channeling, average a single additional casting die resulting in a 3:1 ratio. (Though we're here ignoring the wizard levels when casting and in this rather extreme situation there's the possibility of a much better ratio, though it's less important with few dice.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually the change to 3+ and 5+ from 4+ and 6+ would only be a start for the solution because you were calling out against armies with several psykers against armies with no psykers. It's the strong influence of the total amount of Mastery level of psykers which could be reduced for example if Warp charges generated by the psykers are added to the Warp charge pool on a 3+, 4+ or 5+.

On another note: it doesn't matter to any of you that Skimmers doesn't crash when immobilised when moving Flat Out? Isn't that a change from 6th edition?

New psy phase has made seer council and screamer star much more reasonable to deal with. Hell, i've pulled a win (9-7) in a game vs a standard seer council list with footslogging orkses with a warphead. If it was a ld-check based psy phase, i'd have zero chances as he'd roll all the stuff at high ld without a second thought and i'd never be able to deny anything significant.

With the current system you got to actually think and plan on what powers to manifest and how many dice to invest.

 koooaei wrote:
New psy phase has made seer council and screamer star much more reasonable to deal with. Hell, i've pulled a win (9-7) in a game vs a standard seer council list with footslogging orkses with a warphead. If it was a ld-check based psy phase, i'd have zero chances as he'd roll all the stuff at high ld without a second thought and i'd never be able to deny anything significant.

With the current system you got to actually think and plan on what powers to manifest and how many dice to invest.

Agreed. Psychic powers are much more of a gamble than ever and I think that's a good/bad thing.