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Bharring wrote:
Killing Marines without AP3 takes 2-3x the firepower. Lasblasters against Marines are hilarious. 15 shots. Usually doesn't kill a single Marine.

Not terrible. Feels about right.

Dealing 50+ non AP 3 wounds a turn is completely viable as a way to scrub marines off the board. After about 3 turns, no more marines.

What do you play to make it viable to use 50+ shots to remove a single squad....

So if I field 75 Swooping Hawks, I can feel good because I killed 17 Marines in one round?

Honestly, man. Scale.

pm713 wrote:
What do you play to make it viable to use 50+ shots to remove a single squad....

50 wounds will kill about two squads of marines, actually. It doesn't matter what kind of marines, really. The more gear you give them, the more points you give away when they are shot to death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So if I field 75 Swooping Hawks, I can feel good because I killed 17 Marines in one round?

Honestly, man. Scale.

No one is using swooping hawks to do this.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Fearless is better IMO. Can't be gunned off an objective unless you kill every model. I've actually lost a few points in tournaments for this exact reason. It's only advantage is not being able to be swept off the board vs a squad they got unlucky against. however most everything that gets into assualt with marines wrecks them easily so you really just want them to die most of the time. Chapter tactics are nice - wont dispute that - they aren't free bonuses though. You have to take crappy marines to take advantage of most of them and their benefits are only chapter wide...since you are basically forced to run allies to be competitive with marines it makes them even less important.

I disagree on your assessments for the most part. Fearless models are just as likely to be stuck in melee as Tact Marines, and I don't see Marines as "crappy". I see some people bitching about their models not getting enough bonuses on what is a very good all rounder option with no major drawbacks, but I don't see an actual bad option there.

The only reason I'm moving from Sisters to Eldar over Marines at this point is for a change of playstyles as Marines play almost identically with the differences coming down to weapon options. And I'm looking for a change of pace. It's been 5 years, I think it's a good time to shake things up for myself personally.

The situation you experienced is exactly what I was saying. It kept you from getting overrun by a squad that shouldn't have beat you in combat anyways - these situations are very rare. I've been playing marines for about 10 years. ATSKNF might as well not even exist - I'd prefer it that way - esp if it reduced the cost of the marine.

Fundamentally, the game has now moved to a place where unless you have elite defenses like a Riptide, Wraith or WS, it's almost always better to have more wounds to give than try to have quasi-protected units like tac marines.

Marines also run the risk where one turn of bad armor saves just cost you the entire match. Armies that lose their models more predictably and consistently don't have these unexpected surges in model losses.

Fine.

Let's say 30 ap4+ wounds.
Let's say DAs or Guardians don't have Bladestorm, and get in range.
30 wounds is 60 hits.
60 hits is 90 shots.
90 shots is 45 Avengers.

Or the Scatter Lasers you're so keen on.
30 wounds is 36 hits
36 hits is 44 shots
44 shots is 11 SLs
11 SLs is 5.5 WarWalkers
5.5 Warwalkers is 385 points of glass cannonry

And that's for 30 wounds, not 50. EV of exactly 10 Marines dying.
By no means reliably removing the squad.

Doesn't seem so wrong. And isn't troops.

Most shuriken weapons would be a joke without bladestorm with the short range they have and units that wont survive marching into firing range. People are just upset because they need something to be upset over

Martel732 wrote:
Fundamentally, the game has now moved to a place where unless you have elite defenses like a Riptide, Wraith or WS, it's almost always better to have more wounds to give than try to have quasi-protected units like tac marines.

Marines also run the risk where one turn of bad armor saves just cost you the entire match. Armies that lose their models more predictably and consistently don't have these unexpected surges in model losses.

Yep - wounds are a much better form of defense due to the "worst case scenario" such as 10 marines being wiped of the board froma flurry of blade storm 6's and some failed 3 plus...And due to cover giving your wounds defense almost equal and sometimes more powerful than power armor.

"glass cannonry "

Not so glassy fortuned in a ruins. Context is where the Eldar crush everyone.

Killing 10 marines a turn for 385 pts from 36" is pretty smooth, especially if the marines had any of this gear people keep assuming they have.

"Doesn't seem so wrong"

Until you are on the receiving end of it. For an entire game.

Redseer wrote:
Most shuriken weapons would be a joke without bladestorm with the short range they have and units that wont survive marching into firing range. People are just upset because they need something to be upset over

I agree theyd need something. is giving them AP2 shots really the answer? I don't think it should have been. It's too strong.

One bad turn of saves, and Tacs lose a bunch, break, and reform.

One bad turn of saves, DAs lose even more, and break. And probably never reform.

Bharring wrote:
One bad turn of saves, and Tacs lose a bunch, break, and reform.

One bad turn of saves, DAs lose even more, and break. And probably never reform.

I'm trying to remember the last time I actually got to shoot a DA. Again, context. It doesn't matter how fragile your units are if all they have to do is kick over the two straggling tac marines left after the rest of the list is done shooting. The marines themselves are the business end of a tac squad/rhino combo, whereas the DA are the icing for a DA/WS combo.

In a vacuum world, I'd agree that tacs are fine. But in practice, they are not. Hell, in a pure vacuum, the heavy bolter dominates DA. But no army uses the heavy bolter because of how terrible it is in practice.

Martel732 wrote:
"glass cannonry "

Not so glassy fortuned in a ruins. Context is where the Eldar crush everyone.

Killing 10 marines a turn for 385 pts from 36" is pretty smooth, especially if the marines had any of this gear people keep assuming they have.

"Doesn't seem so wrong"

Until you are on the receiving end of it. For an entire game.

Every discussion on dakka always breaks down into an argument about how worthless power armor is. I'm jumping ship to xenos in order to have fun playing the game. Tired of playing over-costed generalist that require OP spells and titans to actually win games.

Fortune on a unit in ruins is a 50% improvement of saves (was 50% fail, now 25% fail).

Invis on a unit anywhere is more than a 75% improvement vs a BS4 army.

Both are WC2 and not the primaris.

So it is glass cannon. Its just that certain powers (omg invis) are broken. Eldar don't have a monopoly on this (although Farseers are generally better than Librarians). SM can cast Invis.

Also, 5.5 warwalkers is at least 2 units. That's a huge investment to fortune them both.

But we digress.

Bladestorm.
Is Bladestorm doing those wounds to each Tac squad before Tacs can even fire? Almost certainly not.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"glass cannonry "

Not so glassy fortuned in a ruins. Context is where the Eldar crush everyone.

Killing 10 marines a turn for 385 pts from 36" is pretty smooth, especially if the marines had any of this gear people keep assuming they have.

"Doesn't seem so wrong"

Until you are on the receiving end of it. For an entire game.

Every discussion on dakka always breaks down into an argument about how worthless power armor is. I'm jumping ship to xenos in order to have fun playing the game. Tired of playing over-costed generalist that require OP spells and titans to actually win games.

And T4. Don't forget T4. All the units with real durability are T5 now. T4 is the new T3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Fortune on a unit in ruins is a 50% improvement of saves (was 50% fail, now 25% fail).

Invis on a unit anywhere is more than a 75% improvement vs a BS4 army.

Both are WC2 and not the primaris.

So it is glass cannon. Its just that certain powers (omg invis) are broken. Eldar don't have a monopoly on this (although Farseers are generally better than Librarians). SM can cast Invis.

Also, 5.5 warwalkers is at least 2 units. That's a huge investment to fortune them both.

But we digress.

Bladestorm.
Is Bladestorm doing those wounds to each Tac squad before Tacs can even fire? Almost certainly not.

No. It's not. As I said before, it's most unfair for the already dubious 2+ save models. Who can also be stomped flat by the WK. So many solutions in the Eldar codex. Trust me I know about invis. Almost every loss to another marine list involves invis. Which BA can't get , of course.

Martel732 wrote:


And T4. Don't forget T4. All the units with real durability are T5 now. T4 is the new T3.

Not that I'm directly arguing against that, but then what is T3 considered now?

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
One bad turn of saves, and Tacs lose a bunch, break, and reform.

One bad turn of saves, DAs lose even more, and break. And probably never reform.

I'm trying to remember the last time I actually got to shoot a DA. Again, context. It doesn't matter how fragile your units are if all they have to do is kick over the two straggling tac marines left after the rest of the list is done shooting. The marines themselves are the business end of a tac squad/rhino combo, whereas the DA are the icing for a DA/WS combo.

In a vacuum world, I'd agree that tacs are fine. But in practice, they are not. Hell, in a pure vacuum, the heavy bolter dominates DA. But no army uses the heavy bolter because of how terrible it is in practice.

My avengers get shot at plenty if I want to actually use them. Hop out of serpent, shoot to kill a couple marines, try to battle focus far enough to hide behind something that blocks line of sight for a 10 man squad, usually can't, lose plenty of dudes on my opponent's following turn. Sure, this wouldn't be an issue if I were spamming serpents and never disembarking, but my list usually features a single serpent, and bladestorm isn't really an issue in my games.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


And T4. Don't forget T4. All the units with real durability are T5 now. T4 is the new T3.

Not that I'm directly arguing against that, but then what is T3 considered now?

I don't know. For most single wound models, it doesn't matter. Things that wound T4 on a 2+ also wound T3 on a 2+. Multi-wound T3 does really stink because S6 is absolutely everywhere.

"Sure, this wouldn't be an issue if I were spamming serpents and never disembarking"

Welcome to my world. Why would they ever get out and let the mechanics Bharring is talking about come into play? AV 12 with 3+++ jink is so much better. It's the wall of AV 12 and WK and AV 10 walkers with 5++ or cover. Much tougher than some Rhino hulls and jump pack meqs.

So, the answer to 'is Bladestorm broken' 'Tac Marines suck'? Doesn't seem to address the question. We're going in circles:

-Is Bladestorm OP
-They would shred Marines (and tags)
-That's not what we see/what the math says
-But WS OP
-But, if I'm not fielding WS, is Bladestorm OP?
-GOTO 1

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Fearless is better IMO. Can't be gunned off an objective unless you kill every model. I've actually lost a few points in tournaments for this exact reason. It's only advantage is not being able to be swept off the board vs a squad they got unlucky against. however most everything that gets into assualt with marines wrecks them easily so you really just want them to die most of the time. Chapter tactics are nice - wont dispute that - they aren't free bonuses though. You have to take crappy marines to take advantage of most of them and their benefits are only chapter wide...since you are basically forced to run allies to be competitive with marines it makes them even less important.

I disagree on your assessments for the most part. Fearless models are just as likely to be stuck in melee as Tact Marines, and I don't see Marines as "crappy". I see some people bitching about their models not getting enough bonuses on what is a very good all rounder option with no major drawbacks, but I don't see an actual bad option there.

The only reason I'm moving from Sisters to Eldar over Marines at this point is for a change of playstyles as Marines play almost identically with the differences coming down to weapon options. And I'm looking for a change of pace. It's been 5 years, I think it's a good time to shake things up for myself personally.

The situation you experienced is exactly what I was saying. It kept you from getting overrun by a squad that shouldn't have beat you in combat anyways - these situations are very rare. I've been playing marines for about 10 years. ATSKNF might as well not even exist - I'd prefer it that way - esp if it reduced the cost of the marine.

From what I can tell, compared to Sisters or CSM it's already free.

Bharring wrote:
So, the answer to 'is Bladestorm broken' 'Tac Marines suck'? Doesn't seem to address the question. We're going in circles:

-Is Bladestorm OP
-They would shred Marines (and tags)
-That's not what we see/what the math says
-But WS OP
-But, if I'm not fielding WS, is Bladestorm OP?
-GOTO 1

Against meqs, bladestorm is a nice bonus, but not OP. Against teqs, it's straight up OP. But teqs were already known to suck. Against MCs, it's a nice equalizer, but do the Eldar even need that when they have so much S6/7? So does this let Bladestorm off the hook? In the end analysis, I'd say yes reluctantly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Fearless is better IMO. Can't be gunned off an objective unless you kill every model. I've actually lost a few points in tournaments for this exact reason. It's only advantage is not being able to be swept off the board vs a squad they got unlucky against. however most everything that gets into assualt with marines wrecks them easily so you really just want them to die most of the time. Chapter tactics are nice - wont dispute that - they aren't free bonuses though. You have to take crappy marines to take advantage of most of them and their benefits are only chapter wide...since you are basically forced to run allies to be competitive with marines it makes them even less important.

I disagree on your assessments for the most part. Fearless models are just as likely to be stuck in melee as Tact Marines, and I don't see Marines as "crappy". I see some people bitching about their models not getting enough bonuses on what is a very good all rounder option with no major drawbacks, but I don't see an actual bad option there.

The only reason I'm moving from Sisters to Eldar over Marines at this point is for a change of playstyles as Marines play almost identically with the differences coming down to weapon options. And I'm looking for a change of pace. It's been 5 years, I think it's a good time to shake things up for myself personally.

The situation you experienced is exactly what I was saying. It kept you from getting overrun by a squad that shouldn't have beat you in combat anyways - these situations are very rare. I've been playing marines for about 10 years. ATSKNF might as well not even exist - I'd prefer it that way - esp if it reduced the cost of the marine.

From what I can tell, compared to Sisters or CSM it's already free.

Can we just get rid of it, then? Legally, I can't turn the ability off to my knowledge.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


And T4. Don't forget T4. All the units with real durability are T5 now. T4 is the new T3.

Not that I'm directly arguing against that, but then what is T3 considered now?

I don't know. For most single wound models, it doesn't matter. Things that wound T4 on a 2+ also wound T3 on a 2+. Multi-wound T3 does really stink because S6 is absolutely everywhere.

Well, as a Necron, I have a lot of S5, which only wounds on 3s against T4. Would you rather be wounded on 3s or 2s? And the only armies with real spammable S6 is Eldar, Tau, and Nids. Otherwise, it's usually special weapons that there are a lot less of across their army.

Nope. It's a flavor rule. You're basically stuck with it.

Bharring wrote:
So, the answer to 'is Bladestorm broken' 'Tac Marines suck'? Doesn't seem to address the question. We're going in circles:

-Is Bladestorm OP
-They would shred Marines (and tags)
-That's not what we see/what the math says
-But WS OP
-But, if I'm not fielding WS, is Bladestorm OP?
-GOTO 1

Thank you for pulling us back on track. That's a pretty good summary of the relevant parts of the discussion so far. Based on what we've discussed so far, I'm leaning towards my original stance that bladestorm is not, in fact, a problem. Could bladestorm be represented differently? Sure. Would avengers be worthless without bladestorm? Not really. They'd just be more cowardly and encourage people to spam serpents more since the avengers/guardians couldn't carry their own weight as well. Based on the numbers we've been pushing around, it seems like bladestorm is a noticable but minor advantage over certain targets. The only potential for it being OP that I'm seeing is that you might get lucky or pyschically manipulate your dice rolls into being too much stronger as a result of bladestorm.

If a unit had a 1 in 3 chance of generating 6 rends, for instance, that would be too much, but I'm pretty sure the likelihood of that happening is much lower. And again, bladestorm is mostly useful against heavily-armored targets who, if they're really noticing that bladestorm is causing them trouble, can go for some cover like the rest of us. Stick your toes on some ruins, and bladestorm goes from being a 1/9 chance per shot of killing you to a 1/9 chance per shot of making your save slightly worse.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


And T4. Don't forget T4. All the units with real durability are T5 now. T4 is the new T3.

Not that I'm directly arguing against that, but then what is T3 considered now?

I don't know. For most single wound models, it doesn't matter. Things that wound T4 on a 2+ also wound T3 on a 2+. Multi-wound T3 does really stink because S6 is absolutely everywhere.

Well, as a Necron, I have a lot of S5, which only wounds on 3s against T4. Would you rather be wounded on 3s or 2s? And the only armies with real spammable S6 is Eldar, Tau, and Nids. Otherwise, it's usually special weapons that there are a lot less of across their army.

IG can do it pretty well. S7, at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


And T4. Don't forget T4. All the units with real durability are T5 now. T4 is the new T3.

Not that I'm directly arguing against that, but then what is T3 considered now?

I don't know. For most single wound models, it doesn't matter. Things that wound T4 on a 2+ also wound T3 on a 2+. Multi-wound T3 does really stink because S6 is absolutely everywhere.

Well, as a Necron, I have a lot of S5, which only wounds on 3s against T4. Would you rather be wounded on 3s or 2s? And the only armies with real spammable S6 is Eldar, Tau, and Nids. Otherwise, it's usually special weapons that there are a lot less of across their army.

S5 is sufficiently rare that I'm not worried about it.

Until you play t3 armies. Then, it comes out of the woodwork.

Bharring wrote:
Until you play t3 armies. Then, it comes out of the woodwork.

How? Where? The Imperium isn't using them, I can tell you that. Who is using all this S5 stuff? I'm talking a non-list tailoring situation here. No prior knowledge of the opponent.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Nope. It's a flavor rule. You're basically stuck with it.

Well, it's possible that the effect could change.

What if ATSKNF became 'reroll failed morale and fear tests'? Would that be preferable for marine players?

 vipoid wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Nope. It's a flavor rule. You're basically stuck with it.

Well, it's possible that the effect could change.

What if ATSKNF became 'reroll failed morale and fear tests'? Would that be preferable for marine players?

Xeno players seem to think it's a thing, so I'd rather just get rid of it and roll with LD 8. If a marine player really cares, they can get a vet sergeant. Dying is a much, much bigger problem than getting swept.