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 Grey Templar wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
It's the difference between "men can vote and women can't" versus "if you take the time to register to vote you can vote, if you don't take the time to register you can't".

Thats a terrible analogy.

Meh, I wouldn't have even attempted to use it if this hadn't somehow turned into a debate of racism. See previous analogy about D&D for better viewing pleasure.

Look. The comparison is not painting rules equals racism or sexism or any other ism. The "isms" are primary and drastic examples of arbitrary rules being put in place in an official capacity and the resultant attitudes that develops in a community because of them.

You are free to meet with your local store owner and make a "club" and hang all the "no girls allowed" signs you want on the outside of your club house under the pretense that your trying to raise the quality standard. Do it.

You and yours degrade your community for it. Again, proven by the isms. You are nerds playing with plastic knowing how it feels to be shunned because you like something. And instead of making the most inclusive rules to your "club" possible to break down what traditionally happens to nerds and instead follow the inclusive nature of games to invite as many as possible and have as much fun as possible you build barriers to entry and push people out.

Again, its clear, you are the bad guy here.

Lance845 wrote:
Look. The comparison is not painting rules equals racism or sexism or any other ism. The "isms" are primary and drastic examples of arbitrary rules being put in place in an official capacity and the resultant attitudes that develops in a community because of them.

You are free to meet with your local store owner and make a "club" and hang all the "no girls allowed" signs you want on the outside of your club house under the pretense that your trying to raise the quality standard. Do it.

You and yours degrade your community for it. Again, proven by the isms. You are nerds playing with plastic knowing how it feels to be shunned because you like something. And instead of making the most inclusive rules to your "club" possible to break down what traditionally happens to nerds and instead follow the inclusive nature of games to invite as many as possible and have as much fun as possible you build barriers to entry and push people out.

Again, its clear, you are the bad guy here.

Soooo Following that train of logic, we should allow tolerate and accept cheaters WAACs and TFGs as well since they provide a "different" experience that will "enrich" your gaming group?

 Desubot wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Look. The comparison is not painting rules equals racism or sexism or any other ism. The "isms" are primary and drastic examples of arbitrary rules being put in place in an official capacity and the resultant attitudes that develops in a community because of them.

You are free to meet with your local store owner and make a "club" and hang all the "no girls allowed" signs you want on the outside of your club house under the pretense that your trying to raise the quality standard. Do it.

You and yours degrade your community for it. Again, proven by the isms. You are nerds playing with plastic knowing how it feels to be shunned because you like something. And instead of making the most inclusive rules to your "club" possible to break down what traditionally happens to nerds and instead follow the inclusive nature of games to invite as many as possible and have as much fun as possible you build barriers to entry and push people out.

Again, its clear, you are the bad guy here.

Soooo Following that train of logic, we should allow tolerate and accept cheaters WAACs and TFGs as well since they provide a "different" experience that will "enrich" your gaming group?

No... You should follow the rules laid down by the book. You should create interesting and diverse experiences through interesting and diverse scenerios. And as long as the army is built and follows the rules you should enjoy the game.

Lance845 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Look. The comparison is not painting rules equals racism or sexism or any other ism. The "isms" are primary and drastic examples of arbitrary rules being put in place in an official capacity and the resultant attitudes that develops in a community because of them.

You are free to meet with your local store owner and make a "club" and hang all the "no girls allowed" signs you want on the outside of your club house under the pretense that your trying to raise the quality standard. Do it.

You and yours degrade your community for it. Again, proven by the isms. You are nerds playing with plastic knowing how it feels to be shunned because you like something. And instead of making the most inclusive rules to your "club" possible to break down what traditionally happens to nerds and instead follow the inclusive nature of games to invite as many as possible and have as much fun as possible you build barriers to entry and push people out.

Again, its clear, you are the bad guy here.

Soooo Following that train of logic, we should allow tolerate and accept cheaters WAACs and TFGs as well since they provide a "different" experience that will "enrich" your gaming group?

No... You should follow the rules laid down by the book. You should create interesting and diverse experiences through interesting and diverse scenerios. And as long as the army is built and follows the rules you should enjoy the game.

Soooo Cheaters are out but WAACs and TFGs are a go?

Lance845 wrote:
You are free to meet with your local store owner and make a "club" and hang all the "no girls allowed" signs you want on the outside of your club house under the pretense that your trying to raise the quality standard. Do it.

That's a bad analogy because a "no girls" policy doesn't improve anything (unless you're a sexist TFG), while a "no unpainted models" policy improves the game. And a "no girls" policy bans people for something they can't change, while a "no unpainted models" policy is something virtually everyone can comply with if they care.

You and yours degrade your community for it. Again, proven by the isms. You are nerds playing with plastic knowing how it feels to be shunned because you like something. And instead of making the most inclusive rules to your "club" possible to break down what traditionally happens to nerds and instead follow the inclusive nature of games to invite as many as possible and have as much fun as possible you build barriers to entry and push people out.

And I'll ask this again: why should I care about this bizarre "support the nerds" crusade? I want to play my games, I don't care one bit about abstract goals beyond that. If that means excluding people who aren't compatible with that goal (people who don't paint their models, people who think bathing regularly is overrated, etc) then too bad for them. I'm not going to feel one bit of guilt about "nerd shunning" stereotypes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:
And as long as the army is built and follows the rules you should enjoy the game.

Why draw the line there? Why not allow unbuilt armies, empty bases with "ork" written on them, etc? Why is it ok to shun the poor nerds who aren't good at assembling models but not the ones who refuse to paint their models? What happened to this idea of maximum inclusiveness?

Lance845 wrote:
Look. The comparison is not painting rules equals racism or sexism or any other ism. The "isms" are primary and drastic examples of arbitrary rules being put in place in an official capacity and the resultant attitudes that develops in a community because of them.

You are free to meet with your local store owner and make a "club" and hang all the "no girls allowed" signs you want on the outside of your club house under the pretense that your trying to raise the quality standard. Do it.

You and yours degrade your community for it. Again, proven by the isms. You are nerds playing with plastic knowing how it feels to be shunned because you like something. And instead of making the most inclusive rules to your "club" possible to break down what traditionally happens to nerds and instead follow the inclusive nature of games to invite as many as possible and have as much fun as possible you build barriers to entry and push people out.

Again, its clear, you are the bad guy here.

Wow. Where do you live and who do you talk to that you're "shunned" because you like 40k? I've never had a single negative attitude taken towards me when people find out I play video games and 40k, sorry if that happens to you.

But again, it's not pushing anyone out. We welcome anyone that wants to play 40k. We have open days that you can run whatever you want. The only thing is that some days we have serious roleplay day, some days we don't. If you don't like roleplay, why would you want to play against us on our roleplay day? Again, it'd be like trying to play D&D with a bunch of guys dressed as their characters doing full roleplay when all you want is to jack around do stupid stuff. Sure, we have D&D groups that like to be silly and laugh about it all, but we also have guys that take it seriously. Are you a bad person if you think that roleplay is more enoyable if the other people are roleplaying?

Another example. Let's say everyone at the store is hungry. We can go across the street to Wendy's, or next door for Chinese. All of us want Wendy's, but you want Chinese. Would you be mad if we said okay, after you get your food meet us back at the game store? We don't want Chinese, so let's split up for a bit. Should we all have to come get Chinese because you don't want Wendy's? Is that an elitist attitude, not wanting to eat with you because you like different food than the rest of us? And it's not like we're going to always eat at Wendy's, there are days we'll come get Chinese with you. No need to get mad and call us bad people because we like something different than you do.

My store and i am not shunned. Home schooled? I am lucky enough to live near enough to Olympic cards and comics. Basically the largest nerd store in the country.

Where, btw, this kind of crap is not tolerated.

Lance845 wrote:
My store and i am not shunned. Home schooled? I am lucky enough to live near enough to Olympic cards and comics. Basically the largest nerd store in the country.

Where, btw, this kind of crap is not tolerated.

That's great. I think the problem might be that you're used to typical nerd pursuits which tend not to be overly demanding outside of a purchase.

Minis gaming is an old hobby, those that keep it going tend to be high functioning adults, and we like to have standards for some of our events.

Lance845 wrote:
My store and i am not shunned. Home schooled? I am lucky enough to live near enough to Olympic cards and comics. Basically the largest nerd store in the country.

Where, btw, this kind of crap is not tolerated.

Why are you saying "all nerds are shunned" if you're saying you yourself have never been shunned because you play 40k? Even if you went to public school you wouldn't be hunted down and killed for liking 40k. There is no worldwide nerd plight where everyone that likes 40k is alone and dying, and that through my acceptance alone will they survive.

Also, it must really suck going to a store that roleplay is not tolerated. Genuinely a shameful store if they think that roleplaying is a bad thing, and that you're a terrible person if you like roleplaying in a game that is designed to simulate a battlefield.

In all seriousness though, can you call yourself a nerd if you think roleplay is a bad thing?

Mini wargaming being an old hobby only means that its members are more like to have picked up some bad habits.

You call it standards. I call it barriers to entry in a game that already has a pretty steep initial investment in money and assembly time. All to have someone snub them before they get to play their first match.

This thread is like a really bad thing that's full of dodgy analogies.

I think we're done for this time around the merry go round.