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 BoomWolf wrote:

 Byte wrote:
-snip-
Cute list? Smug much? Seems you have a very high opinion of your game. Good for you I guess. You got it all figured out.

"Cute list" is a praise, not an insult-at least from the way of speaking in my area. maybe it sounds differently when written over the internet.
What I was practically saying (and wrote clearly in the end of the post), is that its a pretty darn solid list. it has a few weaknesses I pointed out-but its strong.

Martel732 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.

My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.

Now I have having a dreaded suspicion.
Martel, this MC rules are not around from the days of 5th. MC smashing also reduces to 1 attack in 7th. (and 7th is around for quite a while)

What are the odds that many of the things that we suggested and you outright called to not work, were because you are using a mash of old and new rules that greatly reduce their effectiveness?

Understood. Every list is going to have holes. Particularly getting a preview or being able to tailor. Adding the drone net at 2k adds a lot of utility for sure.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I know Blood Angels are in a gak spot, but I didn't realize Martel was being cheated against either.

Martel732 wrote:It's actually been a while since I closely paid attention to the dice that MCs were throwing against vehicles/walkers. It's not like the Eldar ever have to assault a furioso. It's partially my fault for assuming MCs murder everything they touch without trying hard.

Even though you may have been cheated against (to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, perhaps unintentionally), I don't think it would have made a huge difference. Like you said, it's not like MCs assault dreads or tanks very often anyhow, but really, it's almost always no contest if they do. It's just being crapped on even harder

Mass dreads won't work because of shooty reasons. Riptides are bullies in cc and would only charge crippled squads. Using a dread to cc a riptide was never going to happen to begin with.

I agree it is very unlikely, and people telling you to melee a Riptide with a Dreadnought don't seem to get how stupid an idea that is.

I think it is Tau player's holding on to the idea they are still weak in close combat from previous editions. They really aren't anymore. The shift in 7th to a primarily shooting game means close combat armies suffer a lot of attrition getting to the enemy. If a unit does manage to assault it is unlikely to still be viable after that. Most of my units are no longer combat effective after their first assault.

Martel732 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.

My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.

Knowing the rules is a first step to having opinions, I believe. Your frequent rants about the Fragility of AV 13 may have been somewhat affected by this misunderstanding. Maybe. I don't know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I think it is Tau player's holding on to the idea they are still weak in close combat from previous editions. They really aren't anymore. The shift in 7th to a primarily shooting game means close combat armies suffer a lot of attrition getting to the enemy. If a unit does manage to assault it is unlikely to still be viable after that. Most of my units are no longer combat effective after their first assault.

anyone who claims we're not weak in combat is lying. That's a fact. Attrition happened in every edition ever. this is a totally false argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I agree it is very unlikely, and people telling you to melee a Riptide with a Dreadnought don't seem to get how stupid an idea that is.

Your lack of adaptability, not the instruction, are the problem here Slayer-Fan. if you simply refuse to embrace this solution, you are going to lose a lot of game to the Tau Empire and spend a lot of time in a perpetual online hate-fest wit hthe Codex. That's your choice but it isn't fair minded.

You're making me regret taking you off my ignore list.

I'm not lying. You obviously don't know how to play Tau well.

Once an assault unit get through all of the bubble wrap around your Riptides, there simply not much left to hit you with. And that's assuming you haven't counter assaulted first.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
You're making me regret taking you off my ignore list.

I'm not lying. You obviously don't know how to play Tau well.

Once an assault unit get through all of the bubble wrap around your Riptides, there simply not much left to hit you with. And that's assuming you haven't counter assaulted first.

Those are two completely different things. Just because you say the tau may SHOOT and kill the assault unit before it arrives does NOT mean the Tau are good in CC lol

"Your frequent rants about the Fragility of AV 13 may have been somewhat affected by this misunderstanding."

No, not really. I take a huge percentage of my losses in the shooting phase. Also remember that the Furioso sides are only 12. And the Tau get a formation that only hits rear armor. I get that you think spamming Furiosos (which are overcosted) is good, I get that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
You're making me regret taking you off my ignore list.

I'm not lying. You obviously don't know how to play Tau well.

Once an assault unit get through all of the bubble wrap around your Riptides, there simply not much left to hit you with. And that's assuming you haven't counter assaulted first.

Those are two completely different things. Just because you say the tau may SHOOT and kill the assault unit before it arrives does NOT mean the Tau are good in CC lol

They are good against the remnants of crippled squads. That's the point.

Being weak in combat is moot when most units won't see combat.

 Crimson Devil wrote:


I'm not lying. You obviously don't know how to play Tau well.

Once an assault unit get through all of the bubble wrap around your Riptides, there simply not much left to hit you with. And that's assuming you haven't counter assaulted first.

I'm not good with Tau? Dang.

On the subject of bubble wrapping, I have a Batrep that is between my Dark Eldar and Imprial Guard which illustrates pretty well why bubble wrapping is kind of a better concept than it is a reality. But sure. If there was enough of it at the perfect angle and it was mobile enough to keep up with the Riptide (which i assume you're panning on moving at some point) and all kinds of things were true, sure.

Two ways to eliminate the bubble wrap and both work fine: assault from an angle that pulls the bubble wrap, clearing a path for unit B. Option two: simple expedient of a couple flamers/Heavy flamers /Liquifiers/whatever gets it done without the need to "actually" target the intervening unit. Option C: Multicharge. There is literally no reason not to multicharge Tau empire. You absolutely positively must because their overwatch is hitting you whether you like it or not and one extra attack is less impactful than tying up their shooting for the entire next round.

My Retributors do it for me all the time when my Battle Conclave needs to get somewhere. The Dark Eldar Wracks and/or Grotesques do it for me as well. And in the case of Space marines ,well, no problem there either. Winning a combat or losing it with the offending bubble wrap is cool, but you're really doing it to get at the real target right?

So if you ARE concerned about bubble wrap, do the ame thing you should always do. Saturate, pull the offending bubble wrap out of the way and go on in. Or flaminate it. Or both. Yeah the Heavy flamer wont hurt the Riptide often but that's not really why you did it right?






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

No, not really. I take a huge percentage of my losses in the shooting phase. Also remember that the Furioso sides are only 12.

Angle the Furioso?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Being weak in combat is moot when most units won't see combat.

Thats on the opposig General...not Tau empire.

"Angle the Furioso?"

Have you looked at the vehicle armor diagram? The sides are HUGE and the front is small. It's very easy for units to get on the AV 12 sides. Especially when the thing is close.

 Jancoran wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Being weak in combat is moot when most units won't see combat.

Thats on the opposig General...not Tau empire.

Pretty sure anyone playing Tau is allowed to use JSJ, Overwatch, and HYMP.

Martel732 wrote:
"Angle the Furioso?"

Have you looked at the vehicle armor diagram? The sides are HUGE and the front is small. It's very easy for units to get on the AV 12 sides. Especially when the thing is close.

I'm uh...pretty sure... I've seen a dreadnought. yes Martel. i am pretty confident i am familiar with the geometry there. I Also know that I can premeasure how far the Riptide and what not can move...and angle accordingly.

You can too.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Angle the Furioso?"

Have you looked at the vehicle armor diagram? The sides are HUGE and the front is small. It's very easy for units to get on the AV 12 sides. Especially when the thing is close.

I'm uh...pretty sure... I've seen a dreadnought. yes Martel. i am pretty confident i am familiar with the geometry there. I Also know that I can premeasure how far the Riptide and what not can move...and angle accordingly.

You can too.

I think your're missing the point of why the Furioso is not a good unit in general.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Being weak in combat is moot when most units won't see combat.

Thats on the opposig General...not Tau empire.

Pretty sure anyone playing Tau is allowed to use JSJ, Overwatch, and HYMP.

I'm pretty sure the board isnt unlimited in size?. Mine isn't. maybe we have a different meta here that ues smaller boards. lol.

So.. What you're saying is that you need to kill the High Yield Missile Pods? Is the question whether you should or not? I'm not understanding your comment. I think its fairly obvious that the plan would be to simply hit them with the crushing weight of the army in melee, undertanding that you will in fact lose some. Right?

So you're asking me what to do if they happen to take the incredibly common High Yield missils Pods intheir force? Same answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Angle the Furioso?"

Have you looked at the vehicle armor diagram? The sides are HUGE and the front is small. It's very easy for units to get on the AV 12 sides. Especially when the thing is close.

I'm uh...pretty sure... I've seen a dreadnought. yes Martel. i am pretty confident i am familiar with the geometry there. I Also know that I can premeasure how far the Riptide and what not can move...and angle accordingly.

You can too.

I think your're missing the point of why the Furioso is not a good unit in general.

I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.

 Jancoran wrote:

I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.

A patronising attitude will do you no favours.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.

A patronising attitude will do you no favours.

Him shooting past what i said and not acknowledging it doesnt do him any.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

NAW: riptides cannot self buff by 2. either they are 3 units firing together to get +1 bs, or they are 3 in 1 unit, to get fire teams +1 bs. by wording on the rules, you'd need 9 riptides all firing at the same thing to have them self buff by 2.

This depends on how you play CFP. RAW 3 separate riptides all firing together using CFP would get +2

Exactly. This is how I'd play them. But I don't want to field any firewarriord, so I'm stuck with drone.net and the wing.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Being weak in combat is moot when most units won't see combat.

True, but suits aren't actually that weak compared to stuff that's not CC oriented to begin with. My Tau buddy does at times see it as advantageous to charge my SoB with his suits, like when he would only get shot up despite using the special jump move. Overwatch from a decimated squad rarely kills a suit, and then he's at least protected from further shooting.

Then again, he has had to adopt other unothodox tactics against me. Fish of Fury in his army means he drives Devilfish at me so I can blow them up and lose girls to the explosions. :-)

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.

A patronising attitude will do you no favours.

Him shooting past what i said and not acknowledging it doesnt do him any.

99% of the forum shoots down what you say because it is ridiculous or doesn't help or shows off an ego that isn't deserved. It can also be a combination of all the above.

Your posts are usually long paragraphs just to say L2P.

Exactly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.

A patronising attitude will do you no favours.

Him shooting past what i said and not acknowledging it doesnt do him any.

99% of the forum shoots down what you say because it is ridiculous or doesn't help or shows off an ego that isn't deserved. It can also be a combination of all the above.

Your posts are usually long paragraphs just to say L2P.

And yours are short ones appealing to higher authority and showing a bunch of non-tactical theory hammering as "proof".

You think that my Tau Empire have not felt the sting of the things I am telling you to try? They have and that's why I am telling you to try it. I haven't seen an army yet that could outshoot us. I have seen a hundred armies that could punch us squarely in the jaw and i have seen even more that could have and didn't...and died because of that choice.

So you go right on trying to outshoot us OR... you take my advice and punch the Tau Empire in the face. I hope you find some way to prove to me that we cvan be outshot. Go ahead. And while you're at it show us how black is actually white.

Until then, I think people would be well advised not to worry about shooting Tau. Get in there and annihilate us with what every army owns: the tools to win cloe combat against nigh any unit we have.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.

A patronising attitude will do you no favours.

Him shooting past what i said and not acknowledging it doesnt do him any.

99% of the forum shoots down what you say because it is ridiculous or doesn't help or shows off an ego that isn't deserved. It can also be a combination of all the above.

Your posts are usually long paragraphs just to say L2P.

And yours are short ones appealing to higher authority and showing a bunch of non-tactical theory hammering as "proof".

You think that my Tau Empire have not felt the sting of the things I am telling you to try? They have and that's why I am telling you to try it. I haven't seen an army yet that could outshoot us. I have seen a hundred armies that could punch us squarely in the jaw and i have seen even more that could have and didn't...and died because of that choice.

So you go right on trying to outshoot us OR... you take my advice and punch the Tau Empire in the face. I hope you find some way to prove to me that we cvan be outshot. Go ahead. And while you're at it show us how black is actually white.

Until then, I think people would be well advised not to worry about shooting Tau. Get in there and annihilate us with what every army owns: the tools to win cloe combat against nigh any unit we have.

This. It really annoys me when people complain that Tau kill other armies in a shooting match. They SHOULD. An army that is essentially an auto lose in CC and has zero psychic abilities or defense SHOULD be able to outshoot other armies.

Jancoran, you're slipping past patronising to rude. Reel it in. This thread in general needs to also reconsider some of what you're posting. Just ease up a bit guys and girls, they're toy soldiers.

@notredameguy No, it shouldn't. In an ideal world. it should have tools to counter close combat units like defensive grenades and grav wave generators and the like (though in practice it counters melee simply because it shoots melee before it gets there). It is not at all fair for it to roll over other shooting armies like IG just because Tau are bad at close combat which IG doesn't like either!

 Ashiraya wrote:
@notredameguy No, it shouldn't. In an ideal world. it should have tools to counter close combat units like defensive grenades and grav wave generators and the like (though in practice it counters melee simply because it shoots melee before it gets there). It is not at all fair for it to roll over other shooting armies like IG just because Tau are bad at close combat which IG doesn't like either!

Than that's a problem with IG, not Tau. An army that has no other strengths other than shooting SHOULD be better at shooting than other armies that have good CC and/or psychic options

When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.

Martel732 wrote:
When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.

Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol

This thread's a complete loss.

No users will ever concede any points.

I'm sure the OP has received as much useful information as necessary.

What a mess...