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 Freakazoitt wrote:
AlmightyWalrus, you violate the bounds of decency, no one owes you anything.

I'm not the one pretending someone else is responsible for my nation's atrocities.

 djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
AlmightyWalrus, you violate the bounds of decency, no one owes you anything.

You're the one who started this thread, you can't attack people for calling out how bogus the entire premise is.

I'm not interested in "discussing" Katyn and the other Holodomors. These are charges. In 100% of cases leading to a dispute and a quarrel. And the charges of radioactive contamination and Sochi and other things as a reason for hatered are generally not smart and rude.
I would like to talk about the revolution, socialism in general, and not get bogged down into annoying subjects

It wasn't a reason for "hatred", it was a reason for why no one who borders Russia has any sort of reason for taking Russia's word for the sky being blue.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know, this is (at least partially) why a large chunk of Europe is afraid of Russia: the complete unwillingness to admit even the tiniest of faults. There are no Russian soldiers in Crimea, there's been no radioactive leak anywhere, Russia didn't systematically cheat at Sotji and Stalin did nothing wrong. How can any country ever trust anything Russia says when the lies continue even after being caught with one hand in the proverbial cookie jar?

Comparing the EU to the Stalinist Soviet Union is disgraceful, and if you want to know why the Baltics are afraid of Russia then maybe you should consider the IT attacks on Estonia or Russia's involvement in Crimea?

That is very unfair to say. Firstly because all governments and all countries are extremely reluctant to admit they do or did something wrong. Russia is far from unique in that regard.

"Everyone does it!" is the stock excuse used to defend Russia whenever this argument is brought up, but it's simply not true. Not everyone runs state-sponsored cheating programmes for the Olympics,

Except China and lots of other countries. Russia just got caught at it because the guy who ran everything decided to tell everyone.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
not everyone denies nuclear accidents after everyone and their dog knows something's gone wrong,

Except you know, Japan and every other country that has had nuclear accidents.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
and not everyone invades neighbouring countries while pretending nothing's going on. It's just blatantly not true.

Except for like every single fething country in the world you mean? I thought you were a reasonable person, but alleging that Russia is the only country in the world to invade other countries? There are so many countries that invade other countries without acknowledging it. Just look at Syria. Practically the whole West has invaded Syria without acknowledging anything. On Crimea, the situation demanded secrecy and delicacy. Sure, Russia could have gone in waving Russian flags everywhere, with tanks and guns blazing, but how do you think that would have ended? Russia did not want war with Ukraine and thus had to invade in a sneaky way. The US often does the same thing for its regime change operations. It doesn't usually send in tanks and soldiers waving American flags everywhere, it just sends a few small teams of soldiers to help the local rebels. The execution is slightly different because the goal is slightly different, but the principle is the same. Don't pretend that other countries aren't just as unscrupulous regarding this as Russia.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Are other countries also reluctant to admit to having done something wrong. Sure, it's human nature. There's an important difference in degree, however.

Not really. A statement like that should be backed up by facts.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'll take your point about de-Stalinification, but what the government of Russia does and what its population does is two separate things. There's plenty of people like Freakazoit who will pop up to defend Stalin in absurdum. The argument about Stalin being Georgian is a bit irrelevant; Hitler was Austrian, but he led Germany. The Soviet Union was, for all intents and purposes, Russia and Friends.

Austrians are Germans. Georgians are not Russians. And equating the Soviet Union to Russia would be like equating the US to California. Sure, Russia was by far the most dominant part of the Soviet Union, but it was definitely not the only one, and the other parts weren't without influence. The Soviet Union was not ruled by Russia, it was ruled by all of the republics, through a multinational political party. You can say that the Soviet Union was "Russia and Friends", but to then go on to completely ignore the friends and just focus on Russia would be unfair and a denial of the truth.

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
AlmightyWalrus, you violate the bounds of decency, no one owes you anything.

You're the one who started this thread, you can't attack people for calling out how bogus the entire premise is.

I'm not interested in "discussing" Katyn and the other Holodomors. And the charges of radioactive contamination and Sochi and other things as a reason for hatered are generally not smart and rude.

You want to know what's "rude"?

The fact that I've not been able to see my family for the last 4 months, because your nation poses a significant threat to Eastern Europe. I find that very rude.

The fact that you guys keep making excuses for it all, I find very rude.

The fact that your nation and it's people doesn't even have the sense of integrity to own up to it's aggressive policies, I find very rude.

 djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
AlmightyWalrus, you violate the bounds of decency, no one owes you anything.

You're the one who started this thread, you can't attack people for calling out how bogus the entire premise is.

I'm not interested in "discussing" Katyn and the other Holodomors. And the charges of radioactive contamination and Sochi and other things as a reason for hatered are generally not smart and rude.

You want to know what's "rude"?

The fact that I've not been able to see my family for the last 4 months, because your nation poses a significant threat to Eastern Europe. I find that very rude.

The fact that you guys keep making excuses for it all, I find very rude.

The fact that your nation and it's people doesn't even have the sense of integrity to own up to it's aggressive policies, I find very rude.

You know what the Russians consider very rude? Your presence in Eastern Europe. We thought we had an understanding that in return for German reunification and unified German membership in NATO, the US and its NATO cronies would not advance into our backyard. You promised that to Gorbachev. Then you broke your word, claiming it wasn't written down in a treaty and therefore not "official", and you expanded into the east anyways. Breaking one's word is very, very rude. Now we are angry. That shouldn't be surprising you. NATO poses a significant threat to Russia. The fact that your nation and its people don't even have the sense of integrity to own up to its aggressive policies, I find very rude.

This thread has gone off the rails, abandon all hope ye who enter, it's gone to full derp!

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
AlmightyWalrus, you violate the bounds of decency, no one owes you anything.

You're the one who started this thread, you can't attack people for calling out how bogus the entire premise is.

I'm not interested in "discussing" Katyn and the other Holodomors. And the charges of radioactive contamination and Sochi and other things as a reason for hatered are generally not smart and rude.

You want to know what's "rude"?

The fact that I've not been able to see my family for the last 4 months, because your nation poses a significant threat to Eastern Europe. I find that very rude.

The fact that you guys keep making excuses for it all, I find very rude.

The fact that your nation and it's people doesn't even have the sense of integrity to own up to it's aggressive policies, I find very rude.

You know what the Russians consider very rude? Your presence in Eastern Europe. We thought we had an understanding that in return for German reunification and unified German membership in NATO, the US and its NATO cronies would not advance into our backyard. You promised that to Gorbachev. Then you broke your word, claiming it wasn't written down in a treaty and therefore not "official", and you expanded into the east anyways. Breaking one's word is very, very rude. Now we are angry. That shouldn't be surprising you. NATO poses a significant threat to Russia. That is very rude.

You realize that Romania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland are all NATO states right? Should they just pick themselves up and walk away? Atlantic Resolve was started because Russia started building its forces up on the borders of the Baltic states. A move that took place almost immediately after the annexation of the Crimea with "not Russian forces". This all comes back around to your guys aggressive policies.

You don't like being called on it, that's fine, walk away. Don't sit here and act like the victim though, when the whole situation is your own fault in the first place. NATO policy did not force "not Russian forces" to take over territory of another sovereign nation. NATO policy did not force an unprovoked Russian military build up on the border of NATO states.

Russian policy did force NATO's hand in building up forces to serve as a counter of Russian forces, hence why I'm stuck on Romania right now. So thank you for that.

I'm locking this, and when I have time going back through it. Warnings will be issued for behaviour here