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Bharring wrote:
You're making your own straw man, then, Slayer.

There's no strawman to make. Assault Marines have no advantage to Vanguard for the points. This is math here.

Unless I'm counting something wrong or don't see all the options, it's as follows;

1) 10 man Assault Squad costs 160pts and gets 21 attacks
2) 10 man Vanguard Veteran Squad costs 180pts and gets 41 attacks

It's not really a "preference" choice. Unless you're in a dire need of a Fast Attack slot, the Veterans are just better. Since their Sergeant has 1 more attack, he's also a much better platform for some special weapons. And there's that +1 Ld thing. All that just for 20pts.

macexor wrote:
Unless I'm counting something wrong or don't see all the options, it's as follows;

1) 10 man Assault Squad costs 160pts and gets 21 attacks
2) 10 man Vanguard Veteran Squad costs 180pts and gets 41 attacks

It's not really a "preference" choice. Unless you're in a dire need of a Fast Attack slot, the Veterans are just better. Since their Sergeant has 1 more attack, he's also a much better platform for some special weapons. And there's that +1 Ld thing. All that just for 20pts.

Land Speeders and Tarantula Turrets exist. SOOOOO there ya go.

The comparison was a 5-man ASM squad versus whatever CC threat is doing 10-15 wounds in a single round of CC.

So 80 pts of ASM vs 180 pts of VV. Sometimes you'll want that VV squad, other times you'll want that ASM squad (or just a 90pt min VV squad).

The point is that, if you're always seeing a lot of overkill, use something smaller. the point was *not* that ASM somehow outperform VV specifically. Only that, if you're seeing a ton of overkill, use smaller/cheaper units.

(Min squads are 5, not 10. The original post could have specified a 5-man unkitted VV squad instead of specifying an ASM squad, but the point was to be minimalistic.)

Tyran wrote:
On the other hand, it would be a pain to roll 180 D10.
I mean, it is already a pain to roll 180 D6.

I don't know if it'd be any more pain than rolling 180 D6s. The dice aren't that much bigger.

Even in Dakkaland you rarely roll more than 20 anyway and the mechanic ends up being the same. Declaring a target number, rolling your dice, and then removing everything under that number.

Purchasing 180 D10s would be annoying, and I suspect that would be the real cause for the resulting nerd riots.

D10s don't tesselate like D6s. They also have facets beyond the flat edges of the "3 dimensions" they exist in.

I like the granularity of larger dice sizes, but if you start rolling lots of bigger dice, anything above d6 becomes unweildy. Lots of things you wouldn't think of, at first.

Also, Orkz still often roll far more than 20, if fhey include a bunch of Boyz.

That's why I'd propose doing a new system under D12. D10 totally have great benefits though, like the quicker Mathhammer that comes with it, but D12 is on a more even dice.

D8 would be interesting as it wouldn't actually be major but still allows two more steps.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's why I'd propose doing a new system under D12. D10 totally have great benefits though, like the quicker Mathhammer that comes with it, but D12 is on a more even dice.

D8 would be interesting as it wouldn't actually be major but still allows two more steps.

To be fair, while changing the base die has a lot of appeal as far as smoothing the probability curves in the game, it's completely infeasible from any kind of business perspective.

The sheer number of already produced products which would be cleared from the shelves as a result of such a change is a non-starter to say the least.

So, feasible in a homebrew league with custom rules, not so much for the game at large.

Bharring wrote:
The comparison was a 5-man ASM squad versus whatever CC threat is doing 10-15 wounds in a single round of CC.

So 80 pts of ASM vs 180 pts of VV. Sometimes you'll want that VV squad, other times you'll want that ASM squad (or just a 90pt min VV squad).

The point is that, if you're always seeing a lot of overkill, use something smaller. the point was *not* that ASM somehow outperform VV specifically. Only that, if you're seeing a ton of overkill, use smaller/cheaper units.

(Min squads are 5, not 10. The original post could have specified a 5-man unkitted VV squad instead of specifying an ASM squad, but the point was to be minimalistic.)

IMO the missions of the squads are different. Vanguard are meant to do damage, while Assualt Squads are meant to run interference.

They're awful expensive to "run interference". Guardsmen run interference. For 16 ppm, I expect at least SOME sauce.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The comparison was a 5-man ASM squad versus whatever CC threat is doing 10-15 wounds in a single round of CC.

So 80 pts of ASM vs 180 pts of VV. Sometimes you'll want that VV squad, other times you'll want that ASM squad (or just a 90pt min VV squad).

The point is that, if you're always seeing a lot of overkill, use something smaller. the point was *not* that ASM somehow outperform VV specifically. Only that, if you're seeing a ton of overkill, use smaller/cheaper units.

(Min squads are 5, not 10. The original post could have specified a 5-man unkitted VV squad instead of specifying an ASM squad, but the point was to be minimalistic.)

IMO the missions of the squads are different. Vanguard are meant to do damage, while Assualt Squads are meant to run interference.

Except the Vanguard can do all that. What are Assault Squads interfering with that Vanguard won't?

Assault Marines have no role.

For BA, they can hump meltas.

I still maintain that the Marines having so many choices that it is starting to circle back on itself and make itself irrelevant. Like, sure you can choose between Devastator Centurions, Devastator Squads, Predator Tanks, Whirlwinds, 5-man Tacts with a Heavy Weapon, etc. for Fire Support, but once one has been found to be 0.2% more efficient than another, why pick anything else? It just makes the other options irrelevant.

This is a perfect example of "marines have so many tools that they're even outclassing themselves."

Make ASM the tacticals of the sky at 13 ppm. Then they have a job.

Assault Marines are in a Fast Attack slot, and if I'm looking to fill Elites I'm going to go with Apothecaries and Banners, or Sternguard.

For Fast Attack I'd prefer the bodies and just putting them in the way of things. Land Speeders are ok and cheapish, but I'd rather deny the opponent a target for multi-wound weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
For BA, they can hump meltas.

That's cool. A little costly I thnk, but cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

This is a perfect example of "marines have so many tools that they're even outclassing themselves."

A lil' bit, yeah. At least Vanguard and Assault Marines take a different Org slot.

Who cares if they're in different slots? Have you seen how detachments work?

You need to fill the Fast Attack slot? Use Land Speeders (who cares if they will attract Multi Wound weapons? That stops them from hitting Razorbacks and Predators and Whirlwinds and they're better for charging crap and falling back) and Taratula Turrets (which gets you more weapons for cheap).

Maybe if flamers weren't god awful.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares if they're in different slots? Have you seen how detachments work?.

If you're aiming for a Brigade. Duh.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares if they're in different slots? Have you seen how detachments work?.

If you're aiming for a Brigade. Duh.

Soooooooooo Land Speeders and Tarantula Turrets...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares if they're in different slots? Have you seen how detachments work?.

If you're aiming for a Brigade. Duh.

Soooooooooo Land Speeders and Tarantula Turrets...

Already stated why I might not go that route. Power Armor swarm is more my style. Not keen on FW as I'd rather not upkeep with another set of books. Land Speeders can only have a Heavy Bolter in the cost of a 5 man Assault Squad with Packs, and would otherwise be one of the only multi-wound targetable models that I would bring to a power-armor-spam brigade. I'd rather have the bodies. More importantly, Land Speeders don't deep strike.

It's literally one book for FW. One book. If one book bothers more than already having bought the Index + Codex + Chapter Approved I don't know what to tell you.

Also who cares if Assault Marines Deep Strike? They can't do anything with it!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's literally one book for FW. One book. If one book bothers more than already having bought the Index + Codex + Chapter Approved I don't know what to tell you.

Also who cares if Assault Marines Deep Strike? They can't do anything with it!

One book each for four past editions or whatever, and one more thing to carry around. Besides, Space Marines are already flush with options. I haven't had the need for FW, and the Assault Marines look better anyways.

If you can connect with a charge, even if you don't kill anything, most units can't shoot or charge in the following turn. Good positioning or enemy errors can get you to tag more than one unit, too.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's literally one book for FW. One book. If one book bothers more than already having bought the Index + Codex + Chapter Approved I don't know what to tell you.

Also who cares if Assault Marines Deep Strike? They can't do anything with it!

One book each for four past editions or whatever, and one more thing to carry around. Besides, Space Marines are already flush with options. I haven't had the need for FW, and the Assault Marines look better anyways.

If you can connect with a charge, even if you don't kill anything, most units can't shoot or charge in the following turn. Good positioning or enemy errors can get you to tag more than one unit, too.

1. You can scan the pages you need. I do that JUST for codex armies. It's only an issue if you make it an issue, like saying it's a pain to use Dreadnoughts because you gotta lug them around and gotta create extra space in your case.

Non argument you made was so bad you should feel bad.

2. I couldn't care less about which models you think look good or don't. Models are as good as you make them. I don't like the Shrike model, so I made one of my own.

3. Without Black Templars that's a 28% chance to make the charge. With Black Templars that's ~50%, but that's once again better with Vanguard because of the price difference being so negligible it doesn't matter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's literally one book for FW. One book. If one book bothers more than already having bought the Index + Codex + Chapter Approved I don't know what to tell you.

Also who cares if Assault Marines Deep Strike? They can't do anything with it!

One book each for four past editions or whatever, and one more thing to carry around. Besides, Space Marines are already flush with options. I haven't had the need for FW, and the Assault Marines look better anyways.

If you can connect with a charge, even if you don't kill anything, most units can't shoot or charge in the following turn. Good positioning or enemy errors can get you to tag more than one unit, too.

1. You can scan the pages you need. I do that JUST for codex armies. It's only an issue if you make it an issue, like saying it's a pain to use Dreadnoughts because you gotta lug them around and gotta create extra space in your case.

Non argument you made was so bad you should feel bad.

2. I couldn't care less about which models you think look good or don't. Models are as good as you make them. I don't like the Shrike model, so I made one of my own.

3. Without Black Templars that's a 28% chance to make the charge. With Black Templars that's ~50%, but that's once again better with Vanguard because of the price difference being so negligible it doesn't matter.

1. I like Dreadnought models, so I'll carry em. The FW book isn't worth it to me, so I won't buy it. Not feeling bad about it.

2. As cool as a gun turret might look, it's not as cool as a marine with a rocket pack.

3. If you had any capacity to put multiple posts together you might recall that I'd take assault marine units to fill the brigade, that would be three units, and thus would have a greater chance to connect with something, plus a CP reroll.

They are marines with freaking rockets attached to their backs. How can you not take ASM!

Bharring wrote:
They are marines with freaking rockets attached to their backs. How can you not take ASM!

Because things like Vanguard and Death Company and Warp Talons exist.

Just let the man take his Assault Marines. He's not saying they're better than Vanguard Vets (or at least not anymore) he's saying they lend to the type of army that HE wants to play and that HE wants to run. Let him hobby his way, you hobby your way, simple as that. Linking back to the topic at hand not everyone wants to run a WAAC 180 model Greentide army because it's not their style, and you shouldn't force it on them.

Now I'll get off my soapbox.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's literally one book for FW. One book. If one book bothers more than already having bought the Index + Codex + Chapter Approved I don't know what to tell you.

Also who cares if Assault Marines Deep Strike? They can't do anything with it!

One book each for four past editions or whatever, and one more thing to carry around. Besides, Space Marines are already flush with options. I haven't had the need for FW, and the Assault Marines look better anyways.

If you can connect with a charge, even if you don't kill anything, most units can't shoot or charge in the following turn. Good positioning or enemy errors can get you to tag more than one unit, too.

1. You can scan the pages you need. I do that JUST for codex armies. It's only an issue if you make it an issue, like saying it's a pain to use Dreadnoughts because you gotta lug them around and gotta create extra space in your case.

Non argument you made was so bad you should feel bad.

2. I couldn't care less about which models you think look good or don't. Models are as good as you make them. I don't like the Shrike model, so I made one of my own.

3. Without Black Templars that's a 28% chance to make the charge. With Black Templars that's ~50%, but that's once again better with Vanguard because of the price difference being so negligible it doesn't matter.

1. I like Dreadnought models, so I'll carry em. The FW book isn't worth it to me, so I won't buy it. Not feeling bad about it.

2. As cool as a gun turret might look, it's not as cool as a marine with a rocket pack.

3. If you had any capacity to put multiple posts together you might recall that I'd take assault marine units to fill the brigade, that would be three units, and thus would have a greater chance to connect with something, plus a CP reroll.

1. Point is that I don't care. It's easy to make space. After last edition there's no excuse about how someone needs to carry one extra book. Sorry. It's a bad argument and you know it.

2. Once again...I don't care. Use your Assault Marines as Vanguard then; I personally hate bling so I don't use The Sternguard and Vanguard kits for the most part. The Turrets are so cheap they DO what you're claiming you need for the Brigade. 27 points, or 81 in your Brigade with slots to spare.

3. And I covered that in Point 2. Your argument doesn't work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MalfunctBot wrote:
Just let the man take his Assault Marines. He's not saying they're better than Vanguard Vets (or at least not anymore) he's saying they lend to the type of army that HE wants to play and that HE wants to run. Let him hobby his way, you hobby your way, simple as that. Linking back to the topic at hand not everyone wants to run a WAAC 180 model Greentide army because it's not their style, and you shouldn't force it on them.

Now I'll get off my soapbox.

IOW: I can't argue against the fact you pointed out the balance issues that exist, so let them do whatever and forget about anything.

If these things didn't matter, there would be no point to the Tactics and Proposed Rules Subforums.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's literally one book for FW. One book. If one book bothers more than already having bought the Index + Codex + Chapter Approved I don't know what to tell you.

Also who cares if Assault Marines Deep Strike? They can't do anything with it!

One book each for four past editions or whatever, and one more thing to carry around. Besides, Space Marines are already flush with options. I haven't had the need for FW, and the Assault Marines look better anyways.

If you can connect with a charge, even if you don't kill anything, most units can't shoot or charge in the following turn. Good positioning or enemy errors can get you to tag more than one unit, too.

1. You can scan the pages you need. I do that JUST for codex armies. It's only an issue if you make it an issue, like saying it's a pain to use Dreadnoughts because you gotta lug them around and gotta create extra space in your case.

Non argument you made was so bad you should feel bad.

2. I couldn't care less about which models you think look good or don't. Models are as good as you make them. I don't like the Shrike model, so I made one of my own.

3. Without Black Templars that's a 28% chance to make the charge. With Black Templars that's ~50%, but that's once again better with Vanguard because of the price difference being so negligible it doesn't matter.

1. I like Dreadnought models, so I'll carry em. The FW book isn't worth it to me, so I won't buy it. Not feeling bad about it.

2. As cool as a gun turret might look, it's not as cool as a marine with a rocket pack.

3. If you had any capacity to put multiple posts together you might recall that I'd take assault marine units to fill the brigade, that would be three units, and thus would have a greater chance to connect with something, plus a CP reroll.

1. Point is that I don't care. It's easy to make space. After last edition there's no excuse about how someone needs to carry one extra book. Sorry. It's a bad argument and you know it.

2. Once again...I don't care. Use your Assault Marines as Vanguard then; I personally hate bling so I don't use The Sternguard and Vanguard kits for the most part. The Turrets are so cheap they DO what you're claiming you need for the Brigade. 27 points, or 81 in your Brigade with slots to spare.

3. And I covered that in Point 2. Your argument doesn't work.

The level you're getting involved trying to sell me on a product I don't need for a problem I don't have is mystifying.

That's because you don't care about actual balance in the game.