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Rocmistro wrote:Now, normally that wouldn't bother me...except they already had a skirmish based game to offer. It was called 40k. So for me, when they dropped Fantasy and moved to AoS, which is, more or less, 40k with swords, my response is: what's the point? I already have a skirmish game. So bringing it back around to the OP...AoS offers nothing that 40k doesn't. I'm sure it's not a horrible game....but why bother with the overhead of books, and rules and learning all that and understanding all that when it's effectively the same game?

Now that I absolutely can agree with. Made worse by the fact that 40K already has dudes running around with swords and axes.

jouso wrote:Your own reasons to dislike it doesn't make it less of a game. It has rules, people play it. The supported/commercial/whatever discussion is so 2015.

I didn't say anything about whether I like or dislike it. I honestly haven't bothered checking it out in depth (just seeing some of the heated arguments on the forums about what a spear should do etc put me off further investigation). I can only assume from your reaction that you're a bit touchy on the subject. It is a set of rules and people do play it. I didn't contest either of those points. I even literally said "It's a set of rules..." The point I'm trying to make is that 9th is an internet project with only minor community support in the grand scheme of wargaming. It was set up to try and catch the wave of 8th edition players who were flocking away from AOS in disgust, but all it seems to have caught is a few ripples. Most of the old 8th players seem to have just carried on with 8th, or tried KOW.

Hero hammer gave way to cavalry hammer gave way to a weird meta evolving mess that eventually descended into everyone playing Dark Eldar dodging 40 man units and lobbing broken spells.

WHFB had a major problem that the iconic rank and file regiments, which historically drew most people in, were often crap on the table and the rules (especially the always restrictive charging mechanic) didn't really facilitate them as compared with almost every other unit type. This is a problem because regiments were the main "fantasy" of the game.

If both players agree to just go at each other the system still sort of works, but it can feel very gamey very quickly (i.e. all rules lawyering all the time) and I think this put people off.

AoS is missing something because it doesn't have that fantasy element. You don't have an army - you have a gang. Which isn't as cool.

With that said the rules are reasonable now (after the 2015 train wreck) and I think about buying almost every new army that is released (really wanted a Beastman army back in the day, is this the time to start one? Probably not).

For me the main reason is that my friends/FLGS don't really play AoS. Which makes it a chicken and egg problem.

Tyel be the chicken - cross the road and bring back the egg that is the wonderful beastman - Beasts of Chaos - army. Show them the mighty titanic beasts throwing huge rocks; show them the huge stone that powers your army; the massive flaming bull spell (that is a very nice spell too!).

Today is the day to start - today is the day to begin - today is the day to embrace the BEAST and lead your clan forward for victory, for war, for loot and for the glory of Chaos!

To go back to the military history comments,

If my military history memory is correct, they used rank and file formations still in The Great War (WW1) during certain engagements (and with certain Brigadiers...) when advancing and assaulting etc... They still hadn't adapted to repeat fire weapons/armour etc.

bouncingboredom wrote:

jouso wrote:

bouncingboredom wrote:

9th age isn't really a game, it's a bunch of fan made rules on a forum.

Yet it draws events with hundreds of people (maybe not in the UK, but over here in the continent it does) . It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it sure has its crowd.

The record (other than the ETC, that's its own beast) is the Polish team championship this July, with 50(!) 5-man teams. Several singles have been held around the 100 mark.

It's still not a proper "game", it's just a set of rules that walk a fine legal line.

How so? Game mechanics are uncopywritable.

 Grimtuff wrote:

bouncingboredom wrote:

jouso wrote:

bouncingboredom wrote:

9th age isn't really a game, it's a bunch of fan made rules on a forum.

Yet it draws events with hundreds of people (maybe not in the UK, but over here in the continent it does) . It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it sure has its crowd.

The record (other than the ETC, that's its own beast) is the Polish team championship this July, with 50(!) 5-man teams. Several singles have been held around the 100 mark.

It's still not a proper "game", it's just a set of rules that walk a fine legal line.

How so? Game mechanics are uncopywritable.

Not taking into intent... but if playing a GW game and if have to go to "intent" position... you are the "guy" (everyone hates).

I find your signature funny " I play GW games, but [don't circumvent the swear filter - Lorek] paying for the models or stuff that makes them money, just give me games for free..." Hunger for free stuff (cookie monster).

To clarify, a company that makes money off making rules and models (you love) yet won't support cause don't agree with pricing??? So you will support but not with money (cause they don't need that, but with hopes?)

Are you high right now? This is the second rambling post I've seen from you that is also bypassing the swear filter (don't do that. )

You cannot copyright game mechanics. You can only copyright how they're presented.

 Grimtuff wrote:
How so? Game mechanics are uncopywritable.

Not that it matters, but game mechanics can actually be patented, assuming you can prove how yours are sufficiently innovative and distinct etc, etc (e.g. the makers of Scrabble accepted an out of court settlement from a company trying to make a similar game, one of the provisions of the settlement being that they changed some of the rules of how their game worked).

The makers of 9th age have a legal team supporting them. This tells you everything you need to know. If you're not aware of why they have a legal team and why they're so scared of getting a cease and desist order from GW then I suggest you hit Google and do some reading.

bouncingboredom wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
How so? Game mechanics are uncopywritable.

Not that it matters, but game mechanics can actually be patented, assuming you can prove how yours are sufficiently innovative and distinct etc, etc (e.g. the makers of Scrabble accepted an out of court settlement from a company trying to make a similar game, one of the provisions of the settlement being that they changed some of the rules of how their game worked).

Which is what I said, you can copyright how they're presented. Not the mechanics. I can find literally loads of reskinned board games everywhere that are essentially just a more well-known one with a different name.

bouncingboredom wrote:

jouso wrote:Your own reasons to dislike it doesn't make it less of a game. It has rules, people play it. The supported/commercial/whatever discussion is so 2015.

I didn't say anything about whether I like or dislike it. I honestly haven't bothered checking it out in depth (just seeing some of the heated arguments on the forums about what a spear should do etc put me off further investigation). I can only assume from your reaction that you're a bit touchy on the subject. It is a set of rules and people do play it. I didn't contest either of those points. I even literally said "It's a set of rules..." The point I'm trying to make is that 9th is an internet project with only minor community support in the grand scheme of wargaming. It was set up to try and catch the wave of 8th edition players who were flocking away from AOS in disgust, but all it seems to have caught is a few ripples. Most of the old 8th players seem to have just carried on with 8th, or tried KOW.

I wouldn't say having multiple 100+ events (and several 200+) on multiple countries is minor support. 8th gets nowhere near that, and on most places neither does kow (I'd happily be corrected on this, though)

I'd also re-read your posts on the subject before saying anyone's touchy about anything. You clearly have a strong opinion of 9th age as a project, if not as a game, you've made that abundantly clear.

Grimtuff wrote:Which is what I said, you can copyright how they're presented. Not the mechanics. I can find literally loads of reskinned board games everywhere that are essentially just a more well-known one with a different name.

You seemed to have missed the point; you CAN patent (not copyright, that's different) mechanics, providing you can prove they meet certain criteria. You're also missing the point that 9th age have a legal team which they consult and respect on a regular basis. They seek and are being giving legal advice - advice which they follow - for a reason.

jouso wrote:
I wouldn't say having multiple 100+ events (and several 200+) on multiple countries is minor support. 8th gets nowhere near that, and on most places neither does kow (I'd happily be corrected on this, though). I'd also re-read your posts on the subject before saying anyone's touchy about anything. You clearly have a strong opinion of 9th age as a project, if not as a game, you've made that abundantly clear.

From what I can tell having a cusory look around you've somewhat overstated the number of events and the number of players. 9th age seems to be going ok, but not exactly setting the world on fire. I have no really strong opinion of 9th age, I'm basically indifferent to it. I don't play it, I don't follow it, I looked into it at one point so I know a bit about it and that's about it. You're projecting your own opinion of the game (you have strong feelings about it) onto me ("oh he mentioned it, and something negative, he must hate it as much as I love it"). It's a thing, that's how I see 9th age. Sorry dude.

This thread is way off topic - please start a separate thread for discussing copying/protecting game mechanics, etc in the appropriate forum (such as Dakka Discussions).

Feel free to link to it here, but this thread needs to return to the topic (i.e. "Why aren't you playing AoS?").

Thanks all

bouncingboredom wrote:

jouso wrote:
I wouldn't say having multiple 100+ events (and several 200+) on multiple countries is minor support. 8th gets nowhere near that, and on most places neither does kow (I'd happily be corrected on this, though). I'd also re-read your posts on the subject before saying anyone's touchy about anything. You clearly have a strong opinion of 9th age as a project, if not as a game, you've made that abundantly clear.

From what I can tell having a cusory look around you've somewhat overstated the number of events and the number of players. 9th age seems to be going ok, but not exactly setting the world on fire.

I can count at least 7 events this season over the 80 mark in Spain alone. Neither kow (last nationals got exactly 21 people), or 8th gets anything close to that (neither does AoS for that matter). Poland, Germany, Spain, Italy are in the same situation, easy to check through T3.

As per the moderation request I won't follow the discussion on IP, but at least try to get the attendance numbers right.

jouso wrote:
I can count at least 7 events this season over the 80 mark in Spain alone. Neither kow (last nationals got exactly 21 people), or 8th gets anything close to that (neither does AoS for that matter). Poland, Germany, Spain, Italy are in the same situation, easy to check through T3.

Cursory check through T3 (don't have the time or the inclination to sit there for hours going through all the back history) it seems you might be confusing the number of available slots with the number of people that actually show up and there's no way (without going into detailed results) to all how many people are just attending multiple events (i.e. 40 people at one tournament being 40 of the 80 at another tournament). 9th doesn't seem to be doing especially better or worse than any of the other game systems from what I can see. Which is good. Despite your belief that I'm some kind of 9th hater which you appear to have pulled out of thin air, 9th age being successful can only be a good thing for the hobby overall. It certainly can't hurt. Just let's not get ahead of ourselves, it's still essentially just a set of rules on the internet, it's not really a proper game yet.

Now to save the sanity of the Mods, why don't you tell us why you don't play AOS?

Personally, because I don't want to; nothing about it is particularly appealing.

OP

Few reasons:

1) People in my immediate gaming circle play Heresy and are unlikely to be convinced. They are mostly people brought back into Warhammer specifically because of their love of that particular story. Nice models (at far cheaper price) are not enough. It took my mate almost a decade to convince them to come back into the Hobby. But these are by far the group I game with the most so their opinion dictates what we play.

2) People at my local gaming club have disavowed AOS and 8th edition 40k. They mostly dabble in a mix of Heresy, Titanicus, Bolt Action, Drop Zone and a few other games. I stopped going to GW a while back so for pick up games it crosses that out.

3) I tried going to a different club to get pick up games of AOS some time back. It was not to my liking. Quite a few times I ended up showing and nobody was there. The few games I had were quite gamey and basically I didn’t enjoy myself. There was a whole thing where they organised a paid narrative tournament and nobody showed.

4) When I went down for pickup games at GW years back, it tended to be the same people and they all had unpainted armies. Plus they had limited space, scenery and it’s not a comfortable environment to game in. (BTW I recently played a HH game at Warhammer World and my God is that air conditioning a miracle! )

5) Because of the above, Heresy projects take precedence for painting and so I am not in the “let’s play with new stuff” mentality with AOS. I ve had Morathi and some Blood Sisters sitting half painted on my desk basically since the release earlier in the year. To which I then added some Femcast and yeah it’s becoming an issue. Especially since I decided to start a new HH army and push for new terrain for the group.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Personally, because I don't want to; nothing about it is particularly appealing.

I came around to it because I liked the OTT nature of the setting. That this a world where Kratos could run around killing giant monsters and it would not look out of place.

bouncingboredom wrote:

jouso wrote:
I can count at least 7 events this season over the 80 mark in Spain alone. Neither kow (last nationals got exactly 21 people), or 8th gets anything close to that (neither does AoS for that matter). Poland, Germany, Spain, Italy are in the same situation, easy to check through T3.

Cursory check through T3 (don't have the time or the inclination to sit there for hours going through all the back history) it seems you might be confusing the number of available slots with the number of people that actually show up and there's no way (without going into detailed results) to all how many people are just attending multiple events (i.e. 40 people at one tournament being 40 of the 80 at another tournament).

For finished events, it shows exactly who played. Also individual people have their own profile so it shows who goes where. Then there's all the supporting evidence of pics, armylists and results strewn all over the interwebs. If it's a conspiracy to inflate numbers I'd say they're doing it extremely right.

9th doesn't seem to be doing especially better or worse than any of the other game systems from what I can see. Which is good.

That's quite a step down from your original most people kept playing 8th or moved to kow, I'll grant you that.

, it's still essentially just a set of rules on the internet, it's not really a proper game yet.

Your definition of proper is quite narrow then. Is it because it's not commercial? Because it doesn't have its own line of minis? Because you're truly missing out on great games.

Now to save the sanity of the Mods, why don't you tell us why you don't play AOS?

Page 5, go check it if you want.

Totalwar1402 wrote:2) People at my local gaming club have disavowed AOS and 8th edition 40k.

This seems to crop up a lot (at least in AOS case). Was it just a case of people playing the game and not liking it or just flat out rejecting it from that start?

jouso wrote:
For finished events, it shows exactly who played. Also individual people have their own profile so it shows who goes where. Then there's all the supporting evidence of pics, armylists and results strewn all over the interwebs. If it's a conspiracy to inflate numbers I'd say they're doing it extremely right.

Looking around I haven't seen any evidence to suggest 9th age is doing quite as well as you claim

That's quite a step down from your original most people kept playing 8th or moved to kow, I'll grant you that.

You're focusing on tournaments. It's doing ok in terms of tournaments, but that has always been a fraction of the player base. On YouTube and just poking around forums now and again 9th has nowhere near the traction that 8th still has and KOW has.

Your definition of proper is quite narrow then. Is it because it's not commercial? Because it doesn't have its own line of minis?

It's because it's just a set of fan made rules. It's a thing that some ex-8th players play and that some people familiar with tabletop gaming know about.

Page 5, go check it if you want.

I think you missed the rather subtle hint about sticking to the topic at hand. And even then, you said you play it, so you're not really answering the OPs question.

bouncingboredom wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:2) People at my local gaming club have disavowed AOS and 8th edition 40k.

This seems to crop up a lot (at least in AOS case). Was it just a case of people playing the game and not liking it or just flat out rejecting it from that start?

jouso wrote:
For finished events, it shows exactly who played. Also individual people have their own profile so it shows who goes where. Then there's all the supporting evidence of pics, armylists and results strewn all over the interwebs. If it's a conspiracy to inflate numbers I'd say they're doing it extremely right.

Looking around I haven't seen any evidence to suggest 9th age is doing quite as well as you claim

That's quite a step down from your original most people kept playing 8th or moved to kow, I'll grant you that.

You're focusing on tournaments. It's doing ok in terms of tournaments, but that has always been a fraction of the player base. On YouTube and just poking around forums now and again 9th has nowhere near the traction that 8th still has and KOW has.

Your definition of proper is quite narrow then. Is it because it's not commercial? Because it doesn't have its own line of minis?

It's because it's just a set of fan made rules. It's a thing that some ex-8th players play and that some people familiar with tabletop gaming know about.

Page 5, go check it if you want.

I think you missed the rather subtle hint about sticking to the topic at hand. And even then, you said you play it, so you're not really answering the OPs question.

Pretty much flat out rejection with AoS and varying rejection with 8th. To summarise:

1) They killed Warhammer Fantasy
2) The story is silly and before it was more mature and complex/interesting. An Empire or Bretonnian player doesn’t really have a way in to AoS with the new armies. You can’t replace a decade of investment in a setting in a single book.
3) They don’t like Stormcast. At all. Since 90 percent of the story is about them this contributes to point 2.
4) The rules are dumbed down and don’t have common sense. (Basically same reason for 8th ed)
5) All AoS games are “one monster and a few squads” so it isn’t a strategic game and too one dimensional.
6) The game is not balanced and fair

There’s a mixture. Some have had nothing to do with AoS. Some have bought models to paint but haven’t considered an army for the above reasons. There was a few weeks where they played Shadespire and talk of getting “the new Warhammer Quest.” But IMO I don’t think they will ever be convinced. Possibly 8th ed 40K but even then.

My reason for not playing AoS is two-fold:

I was a huge Empire player back in Fantasy, and am hoping for some new kits/faction that represents humans in the new realms outside of "Freeguild" which don't play any way to how I used to run them back in Fantasy.

I picked Kharadrons, and while I love the little guys, they just don't have a lot of options, my other friend picked Idoneth, and you can imagine how painstaking it is for this ranged dwarven skyship army to be forced to shoot only the closest thing to them. It's frustrating, and I wish they had more options, more infantry, or ships, or something

bouncingboredom wrote:

That's quite a step down from your original most people kept playing 8th or moved to kow, I'll grant you that.

You're focusing on tournaments. It's doing ok in terms of tournaments, but that has always been a fraction of the player base. On YouTube and just poking around forums now and again 9th has nowhere near the traction that 8th still has and KOW has.

Ahem. Where's your evidence of the bolded part? By number and size of events 9th wins hands down, no contest. Show me yours (and no, casual poking around forums is not enough)

Or just follow your own advice and stick to the topic and move this discussion to a new thread (preferably on a non-AoS section of the forum). Everyone will thank you for that.

Yeah it is kind of a unfair for AoS though, the places where 9th is popular, where places with super dedicted tournament WFB sceen. For example for Poland if you would compare 9th age and AoS, you could get the wrong idea that 9th is the real thing, because it is played in most stores, local events run 50+people and larger events are almos the same size as they were in WFB times.

Am sure that even if someone would want to play 9th in a place like UK, they would struggle to find a place to play. Stores are GW or close to GW, same with clubs, so there are only home games left and it is hard to get more people playing when you play at your home.

Karol wrote:
Yeah it is kind of a unfair for AoS though,

I don't think so. AoS is different enough that you can play both and enjoy both.

The different square-based systems do overlap to a larger degree, IMHO.

That said, the continent has always been very different to the UK in gaming preferences mostly because communities tend to be club-driven rather than shop-driven (and especially GW-shop driven). This has only gotten worse with brick and mortar stores having a harder time every year struggling with the competition from discounted online stores, which has pushed them further in the hands of collectible card and board games which apparently are the ones keeping B&M shops afloat these days outside of the really big cities.

Shops that don't make money on miniature wargames will no longer push or support them, so players have to organise themselves in different ways.

It's not just online stores, but also the fact that renting a shop on the highstreet today - in the UK at least - is very difficult and expensive. A lot of stores are closing up and if you look at the highstreets in many towns its full of charity shops; food outlets; clothing and mobile phone shops. With a lot of the clothing outlets often changing hands fairly often.

A lot of stores that have hung on are getting food outlets inside them - either in house or twinning with another company.

Basically the highstreet isn't just in competition with online; but is also under a lot of pressure for the vastly increased overheads that they have to operate with. That in itself shuts down a lot of hobby level stores before they even get started and those that do are often stuck with small retail areas (limited scope to show stuff for sale) and are often pushed out into the marginal areas of the town (which means less footfall and attention but also can mean that, for a game store, its not in the "nice safe" looking bit of the town

Totalwar1402 wrote:Pretty much flat out rejection with AoS and varying rejection with 8th. To summarise:

1) They killed Warhammer Fantasy
2) The story is silly and before it was more mature and complex/interesting. An Empire or Bretonnian player doesn’t really have a way in to AoS with the new armies. You can’t replace a decade of investment in a setting in a single book.
3) They don’t like Stormcast. At all. Since 90 percent of the story is about them this contributes to point 2.
4) The rules are dumbed down and don’t have common sense. (Basically same reason for 8th ed)
5) All AoS games are “one monster and a few squads” so it isn’t a strategic game and too one dimensional.
6) The game is not balanced and fair

There’s a mixture. Some have had nothing to do with AoS. Some have bought models to paint but haven’t considered an army for the above reasons. There was a few weeks where they played Shadespire and talk of getting “the new Warhammer Quest.” But IMO I don’t think they will ever be convinced. Possibly 8th ed 40K but even then.

Yeah, basically the full gamut of typical complaints. The background issue has always perplexed me. Why not mix the game up a bit but still keep the law? Why the need to nuke the whole world just to change the rules, other than the symbolism?

Zontarz wrote:My reason for not playing AoS is two-fold:

I was a huge Empire player back in Fantasy, and am hoping for some new kits/faction that represents humans in the new realms outside of "Freeguild" which don't play any way to how I used to run them back in Fantasy.

I picked Kharadrons, and while I love the little guys, they just don't have a lot of options, my other friend picked Idoneth, and you can imagine how painstaking it is for this ranged dwarven skyship army to be forced to shoot only the closest thing to them. It's frustrating, and I wish they had more options, more infantry, or ships, or something

That's another source of serious perplextion for me. Normally human based races get a lot of attention in most games because there's a natural tendency to gravitate towards the (semi) familiar. Even with Stormcast as the new poster boys it seems odd that humans have sort of fallen by the wayside and that can't help AOS. Possible missed opportunity there to breathe life back into Bretonnians as well, unless they thought those players would gravitate towards the new Sigmarines?.

jouso wrote:Or just follow your own advice and stick to the topic and move this discussion to a new thread (preferably on a non-AoS section of the forum). Everyone will thank you for that.

Erm, you're the one that started having a massive hissy fit over 9th age and keep posting exclusively off topic about it.

I don't really get that argument. How is someone whos army has no rules going to be ok? Now people may have been lieing to me or maybe they were wrong, but at least at my store, and I know there are similar feeling around polish forums, that more then a few armies are just not playable in AoS, and another batch technicly exist, but is so bottom tier it ain't worth to play them. Not sure how true that argument is

I don't think so. AoS is different enough that you can play both and enjoy both.

From what I have expiriance the AoS vs 9th age players situation is kin to football hooligans type of interaction. They aren't killing each other, but I have seen enough of people being donkey-caves to each other, not leting people in to or out of the store. Creating events, then canceling them at the last moment just so the other group of people can't have their event as other weekends are taken up by warmahordes and w40k etc.

Karol you seen to have a REALLY nasty local bunch of players! I don't mean to tar them all with the same brush but the behaviour you are describing seems really out of character with the average gamer group and honestly just screams of standard bullying rather than anything what so ever to do with the game systems or company behind them.

Honestly you've either got a handful of really nasty people who haven't been kicked out or you've got a very toxic gamer society that's grown up in your area.

I'd certainly not expect that in the UK at any club.

Karol wrote:
I don't really get that argument. How is someone whos army has no rules going to be ok? Now people may have been lieing to me or maybe they were wrong, but at least at my store, and I know there are similar feeling around polish forums, that more then a few armies are just not playable in AoS, and another batch technicly exist, but is so bottom tier it ain't worth to play them. Not sure how true that argument is

I don't think so. AoS is different enough that you can play both and enjoy both.

From what I have expiriance the AoS vs 9th age players situation is kin to football hooligans type of interaction. They aren't killing each other, but I have seen enough of people being donkey-caves to each other, not leting people in to or out of the store. Creating events, then canceling them at the last moment just so the other group of people can't have their event as other weekends are taken up by warmahordes and w40k etc.

If you're playing competitively to win tournaments I'd say that is true for the most part.

At the minute I'm not playing AoS because despite building up a sizeable Khorne/Death army, I just can't get into painting them.

Also my FLGS is just...terrible at the minute. It's trying to be a flagship store when it's barely got the space to hold an eight person tournament...

It's mainly a card/board game shop too but even then they're just...so bad. I feel sorry for the two employees who are trying to make it work (one of whom is my best friend), and the co-owner who is (or was, seems like he's burnt out) doing everything while the other co-owner wanted to be the face but put in **** all into promoting the business or helping it expand.

I found another store closer to home too, as soon as I build up a small Beastmen army, I might join in there.

As a 40K player and long-time miniatures wargamer I tried three times to get into Warhammer Fantasy. The first time was with Dwarves circa 2002. The second time was with Chaos circa 2009. The third and final time was again with Chaos in 2014. Each time I collected and painted up an army but found I did not enjoy the gameplay/scene. I played Ancients (and Chainmail) before, so its not like I had never met rank and file games before. There was just something about Fantasy that I couldn't get into.

This evening, I picked up the Getting Started with Warhammer Age of Sigmar magazine. While I enjoyed Felix and Gotrek (Skavenslayer is one of my favourite books), I don't miss the old world. Although I am getting lots of 40K gaming in, I am kinda pumped about AOS. I am not even sure why. The models look cool, and the player base seems a little more casual now.

Wish me luck (hope my wife doesn't figure it out...)!