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Rip it to shreds folks. I want to see this list do well.

HQ:
Shas'el - Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi Tracker
BodyGuard - Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, HW Multi Tracker

Elites:
6 Stealth Team - Team Leader w/Markerlight, Bonding Knife, HW Multi Tracker, HW Drone Controller, 2 Marker Drones (AKA: The Agreesive Stealth marker Team)
2 Suits - TL Missile, Flamer
3 Suits - Shas'vre w/ Missile, AFP, Multi Tracker, Bonding Knife, Drone Controller w/ Gun Drone. Standard suits Firestorm (MP, BC, MT)

Troops:
10 Kroot
10 Kroot
6 Fire Warriors - Carbines, Devilfish w/ Dpods
6 Fire Warriors - Rifles (Waiting for Pathfinders Devilfish)

Fast Attack:
5 Pathfinders - Devilfish v/Dpods ('Fish chills with Rifle Warriors, helps hold objective.)
4 Gun Drones - Meatshields, Assault protection, and fire support for crisis suits
4 Gun Drones - Ditto

Heavy Support:
Hammerhead - Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons, Multi Tracker, Target Lock, Disruption Pods
3 Broadsides - ASS, Team Leader w/ HW Target Lock and HW Drone Controller with 2 Shield Drones
3 Broadsides - ASS, Team Leader w/ HW Target Lock and HW Drone Controller with 2 Shield Drones


So. 6 Railguns that can shoot at 4 Different targets for primary anti vehicle. Kroot bubblewrap these. Ionhead, Deathrains, and Firestorms for anti transport. Firestorm and Stealth Team for anti-infantry. Commander's team for DSing terminators or rushing vehicles that need some high powered weaponry. Pathfinders and Stealth Team can both dish out markerlights, pathfinder's markerlights used for the railguns.

Comes out to 1996. If you can find me a way to get ONE. SINGLE. POINT. somewhere from this list without sacrificing firepower, I can upgrade my bodyguard to a full Shas'el and gain the benefits of IC status. May not be entirely beneficial but it sounds like a good idea to me.

I'd like to think this is an all comers list. What does the enlightened community think?

Pvt. Jet wrote:5 Pathfinders - Devilfish v/Dpods ('Fish chills with Rifle Warriors, helps hold objective.)
4 Gun Drones - Meatshields, Assault protection, and fire support for crisis suits
4 Gun Drones - Ditto

I'd trade GD points for a full sized PF crew, bonded. And then I'd eliminate them altogether for a Warfish (SMS, MT, DisPod, TA). That's 3 less KillPoints for your enemy, as your list has 16 KPs available.

Pvt. Jet wrote:Comes out to 1996. If you can find me a way to get ONE. SINGLE. POINT. somewhere from this list without sacrificing firepower, I can upgrade my bodyguard to a full Shas'el and gain the benefits of IC status. May not be entirely beneficial but it sounds like a good idea to me.

The GD screens shouldn't be necessary and Warfish will pour out more punishment than BS2 TL GDs, so I don't see trading them for the 'fish upgrade as a loss of fire power.

Before posting any advice, I'd like to know what your depkoyment plan is. Also, "What is your overall battleplan?".

I've got an idea of what you might be planning on some of this(Gun Srones free up scoring units or cover Stealths?), but want to know your plan is for the kroot(Leap frog? out-flank?)


I will say that a possible drop to 5 or 4 stealth suits might give you the points you want elswhere.

Overall Battleplan: Pop enemy vehicles (that threaten my suits) and tranports ASAP with my long range fire. Once the enemy is slogging, use my suits midrange anti-infantry fire to rip them to shreds as they approach my lines. In objective games, lure them away from objectives and then rush them with fish later. In annihilation, lure them in with suits and let them have it with my entire army's firepower.

Broadsides and Hammerhead will line up in shooting positions. Lots of LOS, rely on armor saves, cover, and dpods for survivability. The minimal Kroot squads had planned to bubblewrap the broadsides if I face an assault army, or infiltrate/outflank against a shooty army and try to use their multitude of charging attacks to pop vehicles or something akin to a devastator squad. Potentially hold an objective. Heck, maybe even jump in the Pathfinders fish and zoom over to an objective marine style.

Rifle Fire warriors start in cover, preferably on an objective. If they need to move, the pathfinder devilfish will come pick them up. Pathfinders themselves get cover, LOS, and shoot away. Probably isolate them from the main army and make my opponent split their fire to try and take out those 60 points.

The Carbine 'Fish will start in reserves during objective games, or charge forward as a suit screen in annihilation, allowing my Commander's squad or the firestorms some mobile cover.

Stealth Team will most likely start infiltrated slightly forward, enough at least for a markerlight shot, at best enough to light up somebody with a torrent of burst cannon fire.

Deathrains start out of LOS, and use JSJ all game to stay safe and pop transports. Maybe charge up a flank with the stealths or firestorms.

Gun Drones will move to provide mobile cover for Stealths, suits, or whatever needs it. They can throw out a few potential pinning shots, but preventing assaults on valuable suit units, and giving soft Stealth suits a cover save will be their primary goal.

To be fair, I really don't need the bodyguard up to a Shas'el. It adds a killpoint, and gains me nothing other than another wound and some minor other stats that won't really matter. It would maybe let me try running my commanders attached to the drone squads, but that's not really a list changing plan.

Now specifics:
@Brothererekose: I'm not taking the gun drones for the firepower, they're there for the suit protection from assaults and such while still having an incredibly small footprint to avoid massed enemy fire. However, trading both squads for a Warfish would give me more firepower... but I worry that it won't be very survivable (it's difficult to hide a devilfish, and as a forward tank AV12 isn't very tough for only being able to deliver 7 or so S5 shots to the enemy that won't penetrate armor. For 90 some points I feel the gun drones would feel more synergistic. My logic sound?

@focusedfire:
Unless there's something serious the list needs I'd rather not drop a Stealth suit. I plan on using them like a standard team, just with the ability to shoot their 18 shots at a BS5, entirely from within the unit. However I am interested to hear what you think of my battle plan and what you think could be changed with the list or plan.

I guess the only major change I'd consider taking would be an attempt to take a squadron of 2 piranhas for move blocking, suicidal tank busting. However, that's much less efficient than a Warfish in terms of firepower, but gains a bit in maneuvrability. Would still give me a squadron of 4 drones to use as shields, however.

Whatever the case, I'm getting off topic. What do you think of the current list/strategy?

@Jet-By how much your investing in the stealth team it seems like you are sort of on a mission to make them work. So I'll try to leave them alone.

You also have a lot of KP's or seperate units. This can be effective in that you force your opponent to split their fire between to many units.

Simple Burstcannon Piranha in exchange for both gundrone squadrons, a dtealthsuit and dropping the 10 point markerlight would be worth considering.

It may seem weird for me to suggest dropping the gun drones considering some pf my past posts, but those posts were about lower point games.


Hope this helps

It does. Gives me something to think about.

(Assuming all the dropped stuff was for a squadron of 2 piranha)

Why specifically the Burst Cannon Piranha? That's only 6 Shots between the pair.... you're unlikely to do anything at BS3 with them. I gain the benefits of moveblocking (and a free drone squad, after I disembark them) but I'd like such an investment to do something useful, ya know? Would sneaking in 10 points for Fusion Blasters be worth it, or is there a reason you reccomend BCs?

I'll definitely be trying both Gun Drones and Piranhas. However Gun Drones are cheaper and allow more diversification of my main list...

As for the Stealth Team, yes, I'd like to see them work. I love the models and the rules, and after my one game with them I'd LOVE to keep testing them out. My only gripe was the low BS, which the 3 Markerlights should fix. Even just two markerlights is enough. I hate shrinking the squad though, as they lose hitting power. I drop enough, and I might as well just make a pure Stealth Marker Team, or just insert another Crisis Squad. All are options, especially with magnetized suits.

So at this point, the only real discussion is gun drones vs. Piranhas. Both have mobility and a lack of firepower. The main difference between the two being durability and size for LOS blocking on the Piranhas... and the small footprint and cheapness of the drones. Both would accomplish suit protection, both offer up 2 KPs. One allows a full 6 man stealth team, the other doesn't.

What to do, what to do... I'll fiddle with my list a bit. If you have any further comments I'd love to hear them.

EDIT: Dropped the gun drones, a single pathfinder, and the markerlight and HW MT off the stealth team leader. This let me add a pair of BC Piranhas. I didn't have enough points for both to have disruption pods however.... then I realized cover works in squads/squadrons in that if 50% of the unit is obscured, you get a cover save. So I only bought Dpods for one. Now the choice is between two cheapo piranhas, and two squads of gun drones + extra markerlight on stealth team + 1 more pathfinder. Thoughts?

@Jet- I suggested the BC Pirahna because you seem to be going for Vof. They could both just as easily be equipped with FB's. It just depends on what you want for them. If you can scrounge the extra points TA's waould be nice on them but I'll leave that to you.

Definitely drop the 10 point ML. This may sound weird as most would say drop one of the markerdrones because of price. The reason I'm suggesting the 10pt markerlight is that its not part of your battle plan.


Your list seems to reflect what you want to do and it seems you've got a handle on it. As to the GS vs Piranha? Playthem in warm-up games both ways.


If you run the Piranha this will leave your list with only 2 areas that you can pull points from. The Stealth team and the Firestorms.

Now I mentioned before that you have a lot of KP in this list, something like 18. While it is good to force your opponent to split their fire between a swarm of units, some pf these may work to you detriment by being too weak. This leads to my question, What are your plans for the D-fish gun drones? If you dont have a plan for them then maybe scrounge the points for Smartfish. If you do have a plan(Last ditch/minute objective contesting) then keep them.

BTW-Personally, I am not a huge fan of the 6 man Fire Warrior teams, especially deployed outside of the d-fish, but I understand the concept in the current meta game. I do think that "At some point" you might find it interesting to drop two of the Stealthsuits to either increase the current fw teams to 9 each or for a third unit of Fire Warriors.


Just some ideas, let me know how things work out.

You seem to be investing too much into your suits. Take a look at this.


HQ: Commander Shas'el (1#, 92 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el @ 92 pts (Hard-wired Target Lock; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (3#, 186 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ 186 pts (Crisis Battlesuit; Crisis Battlesuit; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (3#, 186 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ 186 pts (Crisis Battlesuit; Crisis Battlesuit; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (3#, 186 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ 186 pts (Crisis Battlesuit; Crisis Battlesuit; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)

Troops: Fire Warrior (7#, 180 pts)
6 Fire Warrior @ 180 pts
1 Devilfish (Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array)

Troops: Fire Warrior (7#, 180 pts)
6 Fire Warrior @ 180 pts
1 Devilfish (Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array)

Troops: Kroot Carnivore Squad (18#, 118 pts)
10 Kroot Carnivore Squad @ 118 pts (Add Kroot Hounds)
8 Kroot Hounds

Troops: Kroot Carnivore Squad (18#, 118 pts)
10 Kroot Carnivore Squad @ 118 pts (Add Kroot Hounds)
8 Kroot Hounds

Fast Attack: Piranha Light Skimmer (2#, 150 pts)
2 Piranha Light Skimmer @ 150 pts (Fusion Blaster x2; Disruption Pod x1; Target Lock x1; Targeting Array x2)

Fast Attack: Piranha Light Skimmer (2#, 150 pts)
2 Piranha Light Skimmer @ 150 pts (Fusion Blaster x2; Disruption Pod x1; Target Lock x1; Targeting Array x2)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (2#, 150 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 150 pts (Broadside Battlesuit; Target Lock)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Target Lock)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (2#, 150 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 150 pts (Broadside Battlesuit; Target Lock)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Target Lock)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (2#, 150 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 150 pts (Broadside Battlesuit; Target Lock)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Target Lock)

Total Roster Cost: 1996

This list has 10 Missles, 10 Plasma, 8 SMS (6 on Broadsides), 2 Burst Cannons, More Kroot, 4 Piranhas for more anti tank and mobility blocking, 6 Rail Guns that can each target different enemies. While this list lacks pathfinders, it simply puts out more torrent of fire so that cover is less of an issue. Give this list a whirl and see how you like it.

@matthc- I think the point of this thread is supposed to be his list, not yours or mine. He seems to have an idea that he wants to work on.

Also, your list looks a lot more impressive because of how you typed and spaced it.

His list has 10 missiles, 13 BC's + 2 Plasma(which mathmatically equals 10 plasma,6 railgun shots(able to be split between 3 targets), An Ion Cannon,Pathfinders, now has 2 pirahna, and has 2 other FB's in the HQ.

The lists are not that much different in strength but are very different in personal playstyle.

@Jet- matthc has a solid and very standard tourney list. It is what you see many Tau players taking to tournaments. I leave it up to you to look at current Tau performance in tourney's and your personal playstyle.

I do think that you will at some point either need another min FW team or will need to beef up the current Kroot or FW units.

Again, Just my opinions and ideas. Go with what seems right for you.

I understand focused but unless I'm mistaken my list has far more firepower. I wasn't listing shots I was listing weapons. Mine has 20 Missile shots, 20 rapid fire plasma shots, 32 SMS shots or 6 railguns and 8 SMS shots, 6 BC shots, 4 piranhas. I'm not trying to have a measuring contest, I just don't see how he has anywhere near the firepower this list does. I understand he wants us to critique his own list, he just said we can tear it apart, so I did. lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is his list in AB format for side by side comparison.


HQ: Commander Shas'el (2#, 169 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el @ 169 pts (Fusion Blaster; Crisis Bodyguard; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Bodyguard (Fusion Blaster; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array)

Elite: Stealthsuits (8#, 250 pts)
5 Stealthsuits @ 250 pts (Add Team Leader)
1 Team Leader (Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Marker Drone; Marker Drone)
1 Marker Drone (Networked Markerlight; Targeting Array)
1 Marker Drone (Networked Markerlight; Targeting Array)

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (2#, 94 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ 94 pts (Crisis Battlesuit; Flamer; Twin Linked Missile Pod)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Flamer; Twin Linked Missile Pod)

Elite: Crisis Shas'vre (4#, 187 pts)
1 Crisis Shas'vre @ 187 pts (Airbursting Fragmentation Projector; Team Leader; Shas'vre Upgrade; Crisis Battlesuit; Crisis Battlesuit; Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Drone Controller)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Burst Cannon; Missile Pod; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Burst Cannon; Missile Pod; Multi-Tracker)
1 Gun Drone (Twin Linked Pulse Carbines)

Troops: Kroot Carnivore Squad (10#, 70 pts)
10 Kroot Carnivore Squad @ 70 pts

Troops: Kroot Carnivore Squad (10#, 70 pts)
10 Kroot Carnivore Squad @ 70 pts

Troops: Fire Warrior (7#, 145 pts)
6 Fire Warrior @ 145 pts (Pulse Carbine x6)
1 Devilfish (Disruption Pod)

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior @ 60 pts

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (5#, 133 pts)
4 Pathfinder @ 133 pts
1 Devilfish (Disruption Pod)

Fast Attack: Piranha Light Skimmer (2#, 125 pts)
2 Piranha Light Skimmer @ 125 pts (Disruption Pod x1)

Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 135 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship @ 135 pts (Ion Cannon; Two Burst Cannons; Disruption Pod; Multi-Tracker; Target Lock)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (5#, 280 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 280 pts (Team Leader; Broadside Battlesuit; Broadside Battlesuit; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Hard-wired Target Lock; Shield Drone; Shield Drone; Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Shield Drone (Shield Generator)
1 Shield Drone (Shield Generator)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (5#, 280 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 280 pts (Team Leader; Broadside Battlesuit; Broadside Battlesuit; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Hard-wired Target Lock; Shield Drone; Shield Drone; Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Shield Drone (Shield Generator)
1 Shield Drone (Shield Generator)

Total Roster Cost: 1998

matthc wrote:he just said we can tear it apart, so I did. lol.

This^

Anywho, the I think I definitely agree on the Piranhas at this point. I'll be investing some points into them... side note to the main list, flechettes worth it on piranhas?

Also, if I may comment, I did a double take when you (matt) said I was spending too much on my suits, and promptly showed me 10 fireknives. I'll admit the stealth team is expensive but I'm very interested in seeing how they work with the built in drones. I could easily drop them for one of your fireknive squads (and might, at some point) but for now... I'm trying something.

As for any notions of firepower between the list, I think they're quite similar. Sure I lose the ability to hit quite as many targets with Railguns as you do, but I'll be firing more at the same target (to ensure magnetically propelled death), and the Ion Cannon and my own Missile pods should do a number on transports. Working on getting the points for TA Piranhas, however. I do ask, why no markerlights in your list? It seems a waste to ignore such a huge bonus to the army, especially when you imagine BS4 fireknives shooting at something. THAT'S firepower.

Anywho, back at focused:
Why the increased Fire Warrior size? They're only really for objectives, and the one only starts on the bard because he doesn't have a ride and it saves him a turn or so of walking to get into a decent position. I could see maybe beefing the rifle squad up for a miniature firebase on an objective, but I think the points are better spent on suits and vehicles, yes?

I mean I guess you could add some markerlights. That just cost more points, but if you managed to free some up you could go ahead and add some to the empty fast attack choice. When I said too much in troops I meant that they are scattered and don't really fit roles well. So you DS your commander to use your fusion, then get promptly charged by the enemy. Suits need to stay back away from combat, that's why I hate flamers and Fusion on suits. If they are close enough to use those weapons they are dead anyways. By using your piranhas to deny mobility, they also serve as nice anti tank as they near enough to the enemy anyways (Denying mobility and what not). I mean you can remove the TL from the broadsides if you want and replace it with anything. It's more for the SMS so that when your piranhas and rail guns wreck your opponents tanks you can divert anti-infantry fire where needed. To me it just makes more sense to have your suits with one standard fit all load out. Your plasma and missles will take care of everything and more than your current load out can handle. You don't need the flamers because you have anti-infantry all throughout the rest of the list (including in the suits). Your commanders don't need fusion because you have piranhas and broadsides which amply cover everything (the piranhas have BS 4 a 4+ cover and can target separate units). Marker lights are not in the list because this list has double the firepower (in terms of suits) than your current list. If you wanted you could drop some things to get some, but they are not 100% necessary. You basically just employ the strategy of using your devilfish for mobile cover, kroot and piranhas to block mobility. Your broadsides and piranhas pop tanks and once the tanks are gone you just unload your 8 SMS systems, 10 Plasma Rifles, 10 Missle Pods and everything else.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Matt. Un Momento por favor.

If I may steal this, I dropped the gun drone off my Firestorms and added the requisite TAs. So this is my current list which I'll work towards filling out as soon as I can get cheap Broadsides on Ebay (HA! Unlikely.) I can always alter from there, but as it is I don't have a 2000 point army finished.

matthc wrote:

Here is his list in AB format for side by side comparison.

HQ: Commander Shas'el (2#, 169 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el @ 169 pts (Fusion Blaster; Crisis Bodyguard; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Bodyguard (Fusion Blaster; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Plasma Rifle; Targeting Array)

Elite: Stealthsuits (8#, 250 pts)
5 Stealthsuits @ 250 pts (Add Team Leader)
1 Team Leader (Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Marker Drone; Marker Drone)
1 Marker Drone (Networked Markerlight; Targeting Array)
1 Marker Drone (Networked Markerlight; Targeting Array)

Elite: Crisis Battlesuit (2#, 94 pts)
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ 94 pts (Crisis Battlesuit; Flamer; Twin Linked Missile Pod)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Flamer; Twin Linked Missile Pod)

Elite: Crisis Shas'vre (4#, 187 pts)
1 Crisis Shas'vre @ 187 pts (Airbursting Fragmentation Projector; Team Leader; Shas'vre Upgrade; Crisis Battlesuit; Crisis Battlesuit; Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Missile Pod)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Burst Cannon; Missile Pod; Multi-Tracker)
1 Crisis Battlesuit (Burst Cannon; Missile Pod; Multi-Tracker)

Troops: Kroot Carnivore Squad (10#, 70 pts)
10 Kroot Carnivore Squad @ 70 pts

Troops: Kroot Carnivore Squad (10#, 70 pts)
10 Kroot Carnivore Squad @ 70 pts

Troops: Fire Warrior (7#, 145 pts)
6 Fire Warrior @ 145 pts (Pulse Carbine x6)
1 Devilfish (Disruption Pod)

Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior @ 60 pts

Fast Attack: Pathfinder (5#, 133 pts)
4 Pathfinder @ 133 pts
1 Devilfish (Disruption Pod)

Fast Attack: Piranha Light Skimmer (2#, 125 pts)
2 Piranha Light Skimmer @ 125 pts (Disruption Pod x1; Targeting Array x2)

Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 135 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship @ 135 pts (Ion Cannon; Two Burst Cannons; Disruption Pod; Multi-Tracker; Target Lock)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (5#, 280 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 280 pts (Team Leader; Broadside Battlesuit; Broadside Battlesuit; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Hard-wired Target Lock; Shield Drone; Shield Drone; Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Shield Drone (Shield Generator)
1 Shield Drone (Shield Generator)

Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit (5#, 280 pts)
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 280 pts (Team Leader; Broadside Battlesuit; Broadside Battlesuit; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Hard-wired Target Lock; Shield Drone; Shield Drone; Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Broadside Battlesuit (Advanced Stabilisation System)
1 Shield Drone (Shield Generator)
1 Shield Drone (Shield Generator)

Total Roster Cost: 1998

I mean I made it so that it would be nice and pretty.

And you did!

I'm definitely switching over the Helios Commander+Bodyguard to Fireknives. Longer ranged=More survivable, I agree, especially if I can nab the points for FB Piranhas.

So it comes down to this. I have two options for where to take my list, one with Stealths, and one without.
With stealths, I have a 2 man Fireknive, a 2 man Deathrain, and a Firestorm team, along with 2 Piranhas.
Without, I have a 3 man Fireknive, a 2 man Deathrain, a Firestorm, 4 piranhas, and Warfish. But I lose the stealths, obviously.

Without the stealths I gain more firepower, in terms of piranhas and warfish, but lose out on the maneuvrability of that very same firepower. I'm a HUGE fan of JSJ.

So I'll be trying both lists. I'll make sure to report back as soon as I start getting matches in. Thanks for the help and different perspectives, both of you.

No problem. I just have found that stealths don't make the best for competitive play.

matthc wrote: I understand focused but unless I'm mistaken my list has far more firepower. I wasn't listing shots I was listing weapons. Mine has 20 Missile shots, 20 rapid fire plasma shots, 32 SMS shots or 6 railguns and 8 SMS shots, 6 BC shots, 4 piranhas. I'm not trying to have a measuring contest, I just don't see how he has anywhere near the firepower this list does. I understand he wants us to critique his own list, he just said we can tear it apart, so I did.

I understand that this is not a "measuring" contest. It comes down to the fact that there are variables to the mathammer between the two lists(Marker lights and Ion cannon), the approach to giving advice, and personal playstyle.

Let me use your next post to explain my approach

matthc wrote:So you DS your commander to use your fusion, then get promptly charged by the enemy. Suits need to stay back away from combat, that's why I hate flamers and Fusion on suits. If they are close enough to use those weapons they are dead anyways.

While I almost never deep strike my commander, I do deepstrike one to two units of suits in the majority of my games. Deep striking is one of the only offensive maneuvers avalable to the Tau and it effectively increases unit survivability and army mobility. When you take the Shrinking bubble defensive posture you limit your armies mobility, which is something the Tau cannot afford to lose.

matthc wrote:
To me it just makes more sense to have your suits with one standard fit all load out. Your plasma and missles will take care of everything and more than your current load out can handle. You don't need the flamers because you have anti-infantry all throughout the rest of the list (including in the suits). Your commanders don't need fusion because you have piranhas and broadsides which amply cover everything (the piranhas have BS 4 a 4+ cover and can target separate units).

Flamers are always useful and a steal at the price and Battlesuits with Fusion Blasters is called redundancy and they pair up nicely with the Plas when you want to go Termie/MC hunting. There are several ways for the Tau to hunt with each way lending itself to a persons natural tendencies for cuation or aggression.

When looking at your list it screams Kauyon, looking at Jets list reveals a Hybrid, and if looking at my lists you would find Hybrids that lean heavily towards the Mont'ka method. To each their own playstyle. Example, Look up my 0 railguns lists and you will probably immediately think that there is no way that it will work, yet it does. Why? Fits my playstyle.

matthc wrote:
Marker lights are not in the list because this list has double the firepower (in terms of suits) than your current list.

While not throwing out a wall of un assisted missiles every turn he is going to throw the missiles out at a higher BS or with reduced cover. Lack of markers cuts the possible effectiveness of the missiles by over 50% when taking BS and cover reduction into account.
As to firepower, His list substitutues BC's for Plasma which while less effective shot for shot against terminators has some areas where it is much more effective. There is an interesting article over on ATT That compares the effectiveness of the BC to the Plasma rifle with a range and unit brak down. If you want I'll try to find the link.

matthc wrote:
If you wanted you could drop some things to get some, but they are not 100% necessary. You basically just employ the strategy of using your devilfish for mobile cover, kroot and piranhas to block mobility.

This I absolutely agree with.

matthc wrote:
Your broadsides and piranhas pop tanks and once the tanks are gone you just unload your 8 SMS systems, 10 Plasma Rifles, 10 Missle Pods and everything else.

Your list has many weaknesses, especially against Raider Spam, Leafblower, Rhino rush, and the new BA builds. You make it sound like an easy by the numbers atmy to win with, but if it were we would see a lot more Tau players placing in the Tourny scene. This last was not intended as a slam but a dry analysis of the perfomance of the MP spam lists.

Now I'm not saying that Jet has found the magic bullet, just that he seems to be in the explorative phase of learning the Tau. Rather than shoving a power gamer list at him, I'm just suggesting ideas in a manner to where he will find his own playstyle by finding what works for him. His list has just as many weaknesses as yours but some of the weaknesses are against different builds.

When you tell someone to change something they want to try without letting them explore the concept then you are interfering in their learning process. Ive said it before and will again, not all builds work for every player. You have to let people find what works for them. Doing otherwise can chase people away from an army or prevent them from developing crucial army specific tactics.

This is why you will almost never see me build a list for some one. On the rare occassion that I offer up a list it is for an example of building for a tactics or to show that you are not locked into one build or strategy. When I offer these lists I always strongly emphasize that the list is for generating ideas and that the individual should take from it if they like something but that if it doesn't suit their style or battleplan then to ignore it.


Hope this explains my approach,

Later

I understand your reasoning for letting him find a list that works for him. I just would rather him try all kinds of lists before just posting a list online everyone saying that sounds interesting and may work for you, him spending hundreds of dollars and realizing his "fun" list isn't all that good. I really don't see the list I posted struggling against raider spam or BA. The only way to gain more anti-tank is to add another broadside to every slot, netting you a grand total of 3 more broadsides (which does increase their numbers by 33%) filling up another FOC with more piranhas, but other than that, this list has a ton of Anti-tank. Against BA the sheer amount of plasma does wonder against Feel-no pain so I don't see where they would suffer against BA more than any other marine army. Sure hey DS. So you set up DS defense and rapidfire them to death when they come in. I understand where you are coming from. I also understand that every player needs to learn things himself. I just am looking out for his money.

@matthc-His money is one of the reasons why I was working with the things he posted as oppossed to things he didn't.

It may be an assumption to think that people posts lists for the models they have, but I feel it is a safe one to make.

Too true. All I'm lacking from the above lists is Piranhas, pathfinders, and Broadsides (oh, and a few excess drones to gather to convert to shield drones). The broadsides have remained relatively untouched since I first conceptualized the list, but I'm waiting on them due to how expensive they are. I've waited on the pathfinders and piranhas because I wasn't sure how many I was using, or even if I was. Suits and stealths were a safe buy because I could get them cheap and they can do a lot of things. Hooray for Tau!

I do wonder about the expensiveness of the broadsides in terms of points... are the 30 points each I've invested in shield drones worth it? Or would gun drones function better as they're merely meatshields (in cover) for lascannon shots?

@Jet- IMO, The shield drones are worth it, but others might disagree.

As to pathfinders, your carbine toting FW's are easy to convert.

Shield drones? I use the Shield generators from the suits attached to the drones and drilled for the stand.