is an explosion simultaneous to the shots

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**denny1824**

Hypothetical situation. Loyalist Marines verses Loyalist Marines.

Rhino Drives 12" towards enemy Land Raider Crusader, full tac squad disembarks and fires melta gun, but misses.

One the next player turn, the LRC moves at combat speed, fires the assault cannon and hurricane bolters at the tac squad killing 3, and POTMS the multi-melta at the rhino causing explosion large enough to hit entire tac squad.

Would the explosion get 7 hits from 7 surviving tac squad members, or get 10 hits since there were 10 at the start of the shooting?

related question: since all shots are simultanous, would you have to roll the to hit of the multi-melta before rolling the to wounds of the other shots?

**Deamonelf**

It comes down to order of activation for the shots since he is using POTMS. If he claimed the shot first into the rhino and it went boom then he would get to smack around all 10 marines. If he shot at the tac squad first then he would blow up the remainder.

Yes the shooting happens in the same phase but it all comes down to order of events since he has two different targets and needs to declare then roll out for to hit and to wound as if each set was a different unit shooting.

**chromedog**

^ What he said.

Depends on the order he shot them in.
Blow up the rhino first, then yes.
Shoot the squad first, then only the survivors get caught in the blast when you blow up the rhino.

**Lordhat**

Or none get caught in the explosion, since all shooting from the same unit is simultaneous; the unit is still embarked when the melta goes off.

**Regwon**

Lordhat wrote:Or none get caught in the explosion, since all shooting from the same unit is simultaneous; the unit is still embarked when the melta goes off.

Thats a different melta. The tac squad fire one at the LRC, but missed. Then the Crusader fired at the rhino with its multimelta, which destroyed the rhino.

All shooting from one unit is simultaneous so it cant depend on the order that you shoot in. Since all shooting is simultaneous nothing actually dies until the unit has finished shooting, because otherwise thing would die at different rates, which would mean it wasnt simultaneous, which cannot be true. So since nothing has died before the unit finishes shooting the blast from the exploding rhino will hit all of the marines.

**Lordhat**

Regwon wrote:
Lordhat wrote:Or none get caught in the explosion, since all shooting from the same unit is simultaneous; the unit is still embarked when the melta goes off.

Thats a different melta. The tac squad fire one at the LRC, but missed. Then the Crusader fired at the rhino with its multimelta, which destroyed the rhino.

All shooting from one unit is simultaneous so it cant depend on the order that you shoot in. Since all shooting is simultaneous nothing actually dies until the unit has finished shooting, because otherwise thing would die at different rates, which would mean it wasnt simultaneous, which cannot be true. So since nothing has died before the unit finishes shooting the blast from the exploding rhino will hit all of the marines.

Ah yes, mis-read the OP. Yes the explosion will hit the unit before any casualties are removed; it happens simultaneously.

**forkbanger**

That would allow you to allocate wounds to models that are about to expire.

To shift the example slightly; 5 unique models instead of a Tactical squad, say a Blood Angels Honour Guard.

They take wounds from the combination of Assault Cannon and Hurricane Bolters; they're allocated, saves are rolled, and 3 of the Honour Guard are about to expire. Fine.

The Multimelta then explodes their ride. Wounds from that explosion could then be allocated to already-dead models, and the exploding vehicle has no effect.

Or, you could resolve all of the Land Raider's shooting and remove it's casualties, then treat the exploding vehicle as a seperate instance.

denny1824 wrote:related question: since all shots are simultanous, would you have to roll the to hit of the multi-melta before rolling the to wounds of the other shots?

You'd announce all firing from your unit (the Land Raider), then make all your 'to hit' rolls, all your 'to wound' rolls, then your opponent would make all of his saves.
"I'll fire my Land Raider; the Assault Cannon and Hurricane Bolters at that squad, and I'll fire the Multimelta at the Rhino with the Machine Spirit."
*roll to hit with all shots*
*roll to wound/penetrate with all hits*
*roll all saves*
*remove casualties*

**Lordhat**

forkbanger wrote:That would allow you to allocate wounds to models that are about to expire.

Actually, no. Since all the shooting from a single unit is simultaneous, all the results of that shooting are simultaneous.

denny1824 wrote:related question: since all shots are simultanous, would you have to roll the to hit of the multi-melta before rolling the to wounds of the other shots?

You'd announce all firing from your unit (the Land Raider), then make all your 'to hit' rolls, all your 'to wound' rolls, then your opponent would make all of his saves.
"I'll fire my Land Raider; the Assault Cannon and Hurricane Bolters at that squad, and I'll fire the Multimelta at the Rhino with the Machine Spirit."
*roll to hit with all shots*
*roll to wound/penetrate with all hits*
*roll all saves*
*remove casualties*

this looks correct, adding in the wounds of an "explodes" result to the number of wounds caused by conventional shooting, allocating as normal.

**forkbanger**

Lordhat wrote:TActually, no. Since all the shooting from a single unit is simultaneous, all the results of that shooting are simultaneous.

That would mean that you remove shooting casualties at the same time you resolve the exploding tank.

To resolve the results simultaneously, you'd-
-Declare targets
-To hit
-To wound/penetrate
-Allocate wounds
-Take saves
-Remove casualties from shooting and destroy vehicle.
-Determine radius of explosion
-To wound
-Allocate wounds
-Take saves

As opposed to-
-Declare targets
-To hit
-To wound/penetrate
-Allocate wounds
-Take saves
-Destroy tank
-Determine radius of explosion
-To wound
-Allocate wounds
-Take saves
-Remove shooting and explosion casualties

In this second case, you haven't resolved your shooting results simultaneously - you've resolved half of your shooting and created a situation where wounds are pending, then applied some of your results (the tank being destroyed) and calculated futher hits and wounds, and then applied the rest of your shooting results along with the vehicle explosion.

**Lordhat**

I know... thought about that right after I posted.... it's a little tricky. I stand corrected.... your first method is correct.

**forkbanger**

In all honesty, it's not a likely situation to come up. If it did, I'm pretty sure most people would resolve it it that way (remove models + vehicle, then resolve boom) without giving it much thought. This is You Make Da Call, though, so things often go a little funky...

**Kommissar Kel**

All of a unit's shooting Happens Simultaneously, This we all agree on.

A rhino Exploding is the end result of shooting, the outcome of all wounds and damaging effects.

Therefore When the crusader fires is AC and Bolters at the squad and The MultiMelta at the rhino you first resolve all wounds on the squad and the damage of the rhino. Then you resolve the explosion of the rhino so that explosion(if large enough to effect all remaining marines) only effects the remaining marines as the others had died at the same time as the rhino exploded.

The rhinos explosion can only effect the marines that remain as the other Marines had already died when the rhino actually exploded. The 2 Attacks are Made at the same time, and their individual results are resolved at the same time with a slight residual from the Rhino's damage result that would then need resolution.

Edit: I really should have read Forkbanger's post. He has it absolutely correct, and it would have saved me a bit of typing.

**dbsamurai**

Just gonna needlessly chime in here
It goes on the stack, so shots are resolved before new shots are fired
ergo, i shoot my hammerhead submunition at a blob IG squad and it kills all but two, then i fire my SMS and it delivers 4 unsaved wounds, the last two guys still die

**nosferatu1001**

db - well, possibly, depending on whether there are cover saves etc that could save the squad through wound alloocation.

Here the wounds from the rhino MUST be taken after you have taken unsaved wounds, as the rhino is destroyed at the take saving throw step