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I'm almost done with putting together my first 1500 Imperial Guard list. It's a heavily mechanized list with two Vendettas, two LBRTs, one command squad in a Chimera and four Vet. Squads loaded in Chimeras. I'm a bit torn on if I should be adding Autocannons to the Vet Squads or not. One squad is Plasma and the rest are Melta. If I drop the Autocannons I can basically squeeze in 1 x Griffon for some anti-infantry support. I thought the Autocannons would come in handy the first few turns, but would then be made obsolete once I start moving. I'm just not if they're worth the pts.

What do you folks think? Autos in with Vets or out?

Thanks!

Whether you want to include Heavy weapons depends entirely on how much moving you expect to do overall. Generally, "heavily mechanized" armies are expecting to drive around all game, so I'd need to know more about your overall plan to know if they'd be worth it.

My opinion is that heavy weapons can do quite well in Vet squads due to BS4, but you have to make a weapon choice where that improved accuracy will really count. As such, I'd suggest you put a Lascannon in one of your Vet squads so it can park in your deployment zone (behind a wall or something, of course) and fire out the top. A lot of people put Lascannons in Chimera CCSs for the same reason. This way, you'll have a little bit of accurate and strong anti-tank fire that's hard to kill, but the rest of your army can tool around like mech armies are meant to do. Whether this is worth the trouble in a list that already has two Vendis, and therefore more TL lascannons than anybody should ever need, is up to you.

Alternately, put Mortars in the squads you plan not to move around. This wastes the BS4 just a little bit, but it does add more anti-infantry firepower to a predominantly anti-tank list, and is extremely cheap.

alanedomain wrote:Whether you want to include Heavy weapons depends entirely on how much moving you expect to do overall. Generally, "heavily mechanized" armies are expecting to drive around all game, so I'd need to know more about your overall plan to know if they'd be worth it.

My opinion is that heavy weapons can do quite well in Vet squads due to BS4, but you have to make a weapon choice where that improved accuracy will really count. As such, I'd suggest you put a Lascannon in one of your Vet squads so it can park in your deployment zone (behind a wall or something, of course) and fire out the top. A lot of people put Lascannons in Chimera CCSs for the same reason. This way, you'll have a little bit of accurate and strong anti-tank fire that's hard to kill, but the rest of your army can tool around like mech armies are meant to do. Whether this is worth the trouble in a list that already has two Vendis, and therefore more TL lascannons than anybody should ever need, is up to you.

Alternately, put Mortars in the squads you plan not to move around. This wastes the BS4 just a little bit, but it does add more anti-infantry firepower to a predominantly anti-tank list, and is extremely cheap.

Well I had considered sitting back and firing away for a turn or two, then start manuvering forward with the Vet. Squads poping tanks at closer range, capturing objectives etc.. While this happening I'll be blasting the enemy with the LBRTs and Outflanking with Vendettas if I get first turn. I'm new to Imperial Guard, so I'm going to be learning as I go.

I guess I'm just not sure if I'm giving much up by adding the Autocannons. I figured they may not move right away and when they do, will two less lasguns make that much of a difference?

Rhodric wrote:Well I had considered sitting back and firing away for a turn or two, then start manuvering forward with the Vet. Squads poping tanks at closer range, capturing objectives etc.. While this happening I'll be blasting the enemy with the LBRTs and Outflanking with Vendettas if I get first turn. I'm new to Imperial Guard, so I'm going to be learning as I go.

Well, if you're "sitting back and firing away for a turn or two" before you start driving anywhere, you've pretty much given up the initiative entirely to all but the most turtle-y and conservative opponents. One of the major advantages of mechanization is that the enhanced mobility and protection for your troops lets you get out there and shape the battle the way you want it; if you're just sitting around for two turns you're basically letting your enemy dictate that for you, which is kindof a strange strategic choice.

That said, you can split your forces between aggressive early movement and conservative lurking to achieve a balance. Suppose you were to send out a couple teams of Vets in Chimeras, with those Assault weapons and such, and leave a couple behind, to guard home objectives and/or as a "second wave." Those latter squads will be well-served with a Heavy weapon, since they'll each presumably get to shoot two or three times with it (especially if you've used the first wave to position enemies where they'll be vulnerable to your fire). Like I said before, in order to make these Heavy choices "worth it," either make them super cheap like Mortars, or very useful when fired with high accuracy, like Lascannons; it pretty much just comes down to how much you want to spend.

Wait, the vets are in chimeras. The chimeras will be moving. You can't fire heavy weapons while moving, even in a chimera. Why do you want to spend points for a gun you can't shoot?

I mean, I GUESS I could see the point for once they've offloaded on an objective, but the strength of the vet squads is it's plentiful special weapons. That an you're going to offloading into a bunch of stuff, with lots of short ranged targets (or if you're on an objective that there is now no enemy nearby, then it's moot).

In this case, a griffon would definitely be a better buy.

Also, are you just running those Vendettas empty? That seems just a tad wasteful; you're paying for that Capacity 12, why not use it? I know all the guns are impressive, but still, part of its purpose is to carry dudes around.

alanedomain wrote:Also, are you just running those Vendettas empty? That seems just a tad wasteful; you're paying for that Capacity 12, why not use it? I know all the guns are impressive, but still, part of its purpose is to carry dudes around.

Lack of fire points is a good reason why. The only thing I'd consider putting in vendettas are metlavets with shotguns. Plasma CCS would be useless in a vendetta.

Very good points on the Heavy Weapons. As I mentioned I'm totally new to IG. I'd prefer to remain mobile. Sitting in place would certainly work against this. I was able to re-work this list and slapped a Manticore in there now by removing the Heavy Weapons and a few other things. I had actually considered the two Griffons, but really want to try the Manticore.

The Vendettas are to be gunships first and then, if they survive, used to transport troops as needed.

As to the Auto Cannons, and initial proposed tactics: Would you rather
A) sit with your Vets for a turn or two wasting their special weapons and firing 4 BS4 Auto cannons per turn
or
B) Start moving your vets while a Hydra fires 2 Twin linked BS3, extreme range Auto cannons for roughly 4 turns befoer it blows up?
Answer: Twinlinked bs3 has a better to-hit ratio than BS3 and over the 4 turns it will likely stay alive(do to all the target saturation you are already talking about) you get exactly the same number of shots as pill-boxing your Vets for 2 turns. Then you get into the range issue; Hyda ACs have a 72" range so you can park one in a corner and hit anywhere on the battlefield. Also the Hydra is the same price as the Griffon, with more shots, longer range, and no minimum range. The only downside to it vs the griffon is the Large blast on the griffon, if you are fighting Foot sloggers you get more hits per blast and do not need LOS, but that is mitigated by the barrage scatter of the griffon.

Manticore is a good tank, Excellent vs troops with regular shells, or excellent vs armor with bastion Breachers. If you managed to fit it in your army(with either shell) just remember what role it plays, and use it to good effect.

As to the Vendetta: You do not seem to have any troops that are not in Chimeras anyway so just go ahead and use them as gunships; you really are not paying for the Transport capacity anyway it is more of a bonus to the skimmer. You really are paying for 3 highly mobile AV12/12/10 twinlinked lascannons that can deepstrike, outflank, or just plain get into a good position before the game even starts(24" scout move followed by a 6" move and then fire 3 t-l Lascannons is just godly in maneuverability and fire-power). Do not waste the points on the sponson HBs.

I thought about running heavy weapons in chimera vet squads, but among the problems listed above, you also now have one less body to protect melts from exploding transports.

When a chimera explodes, everybody takes a wound on 3+, meaning a 10 man squad generally takes 6-7 wounds, allowing the specials to not take a save. When down to 9, you're still taking 6 wounds on average, but it's more likely to hit 7 out of 9 than 8 out of 10. I think this was a better thought in my head...

dont get a griffon! for the same points you can get a hydra and fill out your autocannons 10 fold! (heavy 4 range 72 twin linked autocannon pwns)

Dont get a griffon! for the same points you can get a hydra and fill out your autocannons 10 fold! (heavy 4 range 72 twin linked autocannon pwns)

Dont get a griffon! for the same points you can get a hydra and fill out your autocannons 10 fold! (heavy 4 range 72 twin linked autocannon pwns)

OP pretty much has the answer themselves. If you want mobility and intend to use that ability to move then heavy weapons in vet squads are a tad redundant.

The Griffon offers good anti infantry potential and keeps the armour/mobile synergy fairly intact.

Hydras are a good place for autocannons and maybe a Leman Russ Exterminator? Heavy 4 autocannons with the option for a spare bolter + sponsons could provide some anti heavy infantry support and provide a distraction. Probably not competitive in a competitive list but worth a try.

Manticores have already come up so...

So what about heavy weapon teams attached to a light weight infantry platoon? Move and fire with 5 teams? with infantry as a screen counter assault unit? certainly not 'mobile' but provides a refreshing amount of fire power and gives an opponent different considerations with an objective capturing group that can pump out lots of fire per turn.

Jaon wrote:Dont get a griffon! for the same points you can get a hydra and fill out your autocannons 10 fold! (heavy 4 range 72 twin linked autocannon pwns)

I think you're getting the exterminator mixed up with the hydra.

Hydra: 72" Heavy 2 autocannons

Exterminator: 48" Heavy 4 TL autocannons

jaon has it right even tho he listed it wrong, since the Hydra has two twin-linked hydra ACs for a total of four shots standing still.

OP: I like the Griffon, used them frequently in a previous codex and was extremely excited about their return. Then I proxied one as a Colossus. Ever since. all three of my Griffons have sat on the shelf and I bought a FW Bombard and converted it into a Colossus. The AP3 and ignore cover is fantastic, as is the increased range.

don_mondo wrote:jaon has it right even tho he listed it wrong, since the Hydra has two twin-linked hydra ACs for a total of four shots standing still.

OP: I like the Griffon, used them frequently in a previous codex and was extremely excited about their return. Then I proxied one as a Colossus. Ever since. all three of my Griffons have sat on the shelf and I bought a FW Bombard and converted it into a Colossus. The AP3 and ignore cover is fantastic, as is the increased range.

Ah, the way it was written made me think that he meant the hydra gets 8 shots per tank

Could be, I'm giving him benefit of the doubt.......

Main issue I find with the Colossus is it's expensive (for that cost, you could almost grab an Eradicator), and has a *huge* minimum range and no direct-fire sucks. Lack of accuracy is also an issue. That, and a lot of Muhreen armies love their metal boxes.

Well, Eradicator is not AP3, IIRC. 24" is not a "huge" minimum range, IMO, but I used to use Griffons all the time so maybe I'm just used to it. No direct fire is a drawback. As for Marines and their 'metal boxes', that's what the other stuff in the army is for, to pop them out where the Colossus can drop onto them.

Re range, with 2 of the 3 mission types being objectives, I've almost always got something to target. Can't hide a unit on the objective and use stealth/go to ground to get that 2+ cover save, not aginst the Colossus............

Plasma vets? Sure, why not? If you're going to occasionally sit still and fire at 24", adding another two BS4 S7 shots is totally worth 10 points.

Melta vets? Eh, not so much. These squads are often on the move, so a heavy weapon is extraneous. I'd purchase heavy bolters for vendettas, or even the occasional dozer blade before an autocannon for one of these squads.


24" minimum range is pretty significant when you don't have a direct fire option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NoShoes wrote:Ah, the way it was written made me think that he meant the hydra gets 8 shots per tank

Well, Hydras ARE usually taken in paired squadrons, so 8 shots sounds about right.

And they do get 7 each if you count the heavy bolters.

Terminus wrote:Plasma vets? Sure, why not? If you're going to occasionally sit still and fire at 24", adding another two BS4 S7 shots is totally worth 10 points.

Melta vets? Eh, not so much. These squads are often on the move, so a heavy weapon is extraneous. I'd purchase heavy bolters for vendettas, or even the occasional dozer blade before an autocannon for one of these squads.


24" minimum range is pretty significant when you don't have a direct fire option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NoShoes wrote:Ah, the way it was written made me think that he meant the hydra gets 8 shots per tank

Well, Hydras ARE usually taken in paired squadrons, so 8 shots sounds about right.

And they do get 7 each if you count the heavy bolters.

I think you misread my post, I thought he meant that each tank gets 8 shots, i.e that the profile of the hydra autocannon is TL, 72" heavy 4, which means a pair of hydras would make 16 shots from the autocannon .


Anyway, I agree on the part about adding an autocannon to the plasma squad, there'll be plenty of times when you find your squad's chimera has been blown apart and sitting in cover shooting out is a better option then moving toward enemies.

If I was going to add a heavy to a plasma or melta squad, I think I'd go with a lascannon to maintain that AP goodness. I'd rather have the AP2 than the extra shot at s7.

Veterans with 2-3 Plasma Guns and a Las Cannon Team in a Chimera are fairly effective for camping your home objectives and providing fire support. If the Veterans do not move they can fire their las cannon up to 48 inches and plasmas out to 24 or 12 inch rapid fire range. Veterans armed like this are effective against light vehicles, terminators, marines and Monster creatures. This also is a good unit to use in conjunction with Inquisitor and Mystics to deal with deepstrikers.

Valkyrie Vendetta variants should be empty most of the time and loaded with Veterans only if you have first turn and want to alpha strike or pick up Veterans later once their chimera is destroyed. The reason for this is the Valkyrie is often targeted and destroyed first so having troops in their own Chimera is better much of the time. The exception is the Inquisitor with Mystics where the Valkyrie makes the anti deepstrike bubble fairly large.

The main problem with 3x plasma vets with a lascannon in a chimera is that it costs 190 points.

You can either have 3x plasma guns, a lascannon, and a couple heavy bolters on AV12 (with shooting restrictions based on movement), or you can have a 2x plasma cannons, a lascannon and a battlecannon on AV14 for only 15 more points.

Sure, the Russ isn't scoring, and takes up a HS slot, but it's durability and firepower are much greater. If the point is to do lots of damage with a vehicular unit, then spend the points to do it right, rather than warping troops to fill the job.

Ailaros wrote:The main problem with 3x plasma vets with a lascannon in a chimera is that it costs 190 points.

You can either have 3x plasma guns, a lascannon, and a couple heavy bolters on AV12 (with shooting restrictions based on movement), or you can have a 2x plasma cannons, a lascannon and a battlecannon on AV14 for only 15 more points.

Sure, the Russ isn't scoring, and takes up a HS slot, but it's durability and firepower are much greater. If the point is to do lots of damage with a vehicular unit, then spend the points to do it right, rather than warping troops to fill the job.

But the Vets w/ Chimera gives you so much more flexability. they can stay mounted or jump out on an objective while the Chimera screens another vehicle.
i guess in this case it boils down to what you need done in the list you're running at the moment. don't get me wrong, i like the Executioner, but i think the OP was using the Vets anyway, and
wasn't sure about the investment of a single HVY WPN.

It is quite an expensive scoring unit. AV 12/10/10 is far from impressive and a single shaken result silences the whole platform. If I wanted to bunker in chimeras on my objective, I'd take basic infantry squads with GL/autocannon in a chimera with ML and HB/HF. Each costs only 120 points.