Griffons and the like : why are they tolerated ?

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**reds8n**

been bugging me for a week or two now, after I was explaining the setting to a new guy in my forthcoming WFRP campaign.

Beastmen, mutants, chimeras and then like are all hunted down and killed as creatures of chaos. Yet griffons, hippogriffs and the like are practically encouraged, venerated and even ridden by people like Emperor's and kings.They are clearly chaos creatures in origin as well, is there any actual reason for this difference or is it just an oddity of the way that the background has evolved over the years ?

**4M2A**

I think the difference is while Chimera, Griffons, and Hippogriff are creatures made by chaos they are not creatures of chaos. They don't worship chaos any more that a dog could. The reson Chimera are hunted si just because they are dangerous to people when the others are likely to stay clear from people.

Beastmen and mutants are hunted because they worship and help chaos not because it created them.

**Red_Zeke**

Good question.

4M might be on to something with that. I don't recall seeing a good answer in the background about that...

**Acardia**

I think it's beacause Hippogriff and Griffons can be trained.

**RiTides**

They're cute

(sorry, I don't have a real answer... but you have to admit, it's a possibility...)

**NinjaRay**

I don't think the Empire views the Griffon as a Mutants or tainted by Chaos. The Griffons are a stable mutation that have been living in the regions of the Empire scene before the empire was formed. It the citizens of the empire, Griffon are worships as pure and strong, and are a symbol of the Church of Sigmar (I believe, I'm a little Rusty on this).

**Kiwidru**

I know some fantasy worlds make a distincton between Beasts - things that don't exist in our world but would have 'evolved' naturally in another. And Magical beasts, things that are corrupted/mutated/created/not natural.

**Murdock129**

Are Griffins and Hippogryphs actualyl chaos made? Dragons, Elephants, Stegadons, Giants, Wyverns, Treemen and others are natural creatures in the Warhammer world, why not Griffins?

**Lexx**

Murdock129 wrote:Are Griffins and Hippogryphs actualyl chaos made? Dragons, Elephants, Stegadons, Giants, Wyverns, Treemen and others are natural creatures in the Warhammer world, why not Griffins?

Dont forget stegadons, carnosaurs, Mammoths ( non corrupted ones ). I just don't know if GW ever clarified if Griffon's were just another old one creation or native life thats been around since records began in the game world.

**jprp**

Griffins,hippogryphs,wyverns,chimera,manticores,jabberwocks,cockatrises(?),hydra and medusa are all chaos in the early rules.

**Minsc**

Might be akin to the Tolkien Eagle-Warg thing, wherein the Eagles (Griffons) are for the most part apathetic / noble whilst the Wargs (Chimeras) are malicious and dangerous. The Eagles (Griffons) are still dangerous to livestock, some villages / people, and so on, but are reliable at least in their mannerisms and can be relied upon to prefer a non-Evil (Non-Chaos) world.

**jprp**

In the early rules all armies could use the chaos monsters as mounts they had to be reared from eggs or very young babies by specialist trainers.

**Jive Professor**

Two reasons.

1) That's how it was in Middle Earth, and Fantasy bears many of its trappings.

2) Rule of cool.

**grantosjones**

I'd recommend reading the WFRP 2nd Edition Old World Bestiary, because I'm far too tired to search the book myself for the passages which will explain the differing opinions amongst Empire scholars towards Griffons and their ilk.

**reds8n**

grantosjones wrote:I'd recommend reading the WFRP 2nd Edition Old World Bestiary, because I'm far too tired to search the book myself for the passages which will explain the differing opinions amongst Empire scholars towards Griffons and their ilk.

Yeah, I've got this.. all the WFRP books actually... I was wondering if there's any other opinions offered on the subject.

Are Griffins and Hippogryphs actualyl chaos made?

In origin, yes, of course they are. That's not a natural creature now is it ?

Giant Eagles are. or used to be anyway, immune to the warping effects of Chaos, I wonder if the Griffon is then, perhaps, the leftovers of some failed old one experiment much like the Halflings.

**Fifty**

reds8n wrote:Are Griffins and Hippogryphs actualyl chaos made?

In origin, yes, of course they are. That's not a natural creature now is it ?

Giant Eagles are. or used to be anyway, immune to the warping effects of Chaos, I wonder if the Griffon is then, perhaps, the leftovers of some failed old one experiment much like the Halflings.

Not necessarily chaotic. Lizardmen, dragons, elves, treemen, etc... are all absent from our world, yet do not have Chaotic origins.

**reds8n**

And ?

Elves and Lizardmen were introduced by the Old Ones, Dragons were there prior to the old ones arrival..the treemen origin is..awkward, but at the very least involves the use of mgic and therfore is chaos based in origin.

The griffon is part mammal and part avian.. plus perhaps some other creatures thrown into the mixture. That doesn't happen naturally, even on/in the warhamer world.

It's mainly the fact that the High Elves ( and Wood ?) Elves use them that makes me wonder if they were perhaps old one intitated at some point. I believe the High Elves hunt beasts like this in the mountains on Ulthuan however, I assume its from there they steal err... chicks ? Cubs ?.. to raise as mounts when they get older.

**Stephen Bond**

but they look so not evil

**Leggy**

I'd guess that it's not a chaos vs not-chaos thing. It's more what's a threat in the area. If a wild griffon was killing livestock/villiagers (little difference, Mwahahahah) then they'd attempt to hunt and kill it just as if they'd hunt and kill a chaos spawn or Manticore.

However, unlike a Chaos Spawn, it's possible to train Griffons and Hippogryphs as riding beasts, although such a thing is rare enough to be special.Thats where you get ridden monsters in the human armies.

**Aduro**

It could just be as simple as the reason why love squirrels but hate rats.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Murdock129 wrote:Are Griffins and Hippogryphs actualyl chaos made? Dragons, Elephants, Stegadons, Giants, Wyverns, Treemen and others are natural creatures in the Warhammer world, why not Griffins?

My thoughts too
Some are more malevalent to humans than others by nature.
I don't see that by simply being hybrid creatures necessarily makes them chaotic in a fantasy world traditionally populated by unicorns, chimeras, cockatrices,sphinxes, mermaids, harpies, sirens, griffons, wyverns, hippogyphs et al.

They were probably around before the Chaos did all the weird stuff. iirc Beastmen were animals transmogrified by chaos?

Also there are the Lizardmen that presumably were not created by Chaos.

**Alpharius**

I think it IS all about the 'stable mutation' thing.

They may have had their origins in Chaos, but clearly that's not the case anymore.

They 'breed true' and can be trained and are immensely useful on the battlefield.

Well, they were before 8th edition!

Argh!

Kill them all now!

**Kanluwen**

Griffons were around when Elves were first really hitting their strides, before the Chaos Gates were opened, etc.

Men are quite happy to imitate Elves, and seeing the Griffons(which might to some of the earlier barbarian tribes that might have harassed some of the Elven colonies become a symbol of fear and the might of the Elves) probably led to a form of imitation in that regards.

**DukeRustfield**

First off, I approve this thread :p

No Lizardmen were "created by Chaos," they were created by the Old Ones.

But I think the answer isn't as metaphysical as you all are making it. A horse, if you encounter it in the wild, will try and bite your fingers off and kick you in the head before it lets you ride it. Still, at some point, humans saw those animals and figured out how to make them work in their society.

The same way Orcs got giant boars and Wyverns. And Gobbos got giant spiders(!) and Lizardmen got Cold Ones/Stegadons/Carnisaurs. And Ogres got Rhinox.

Individually and in the wild, they might be some mean ass animals. Created however. But at some point, each race came across them and said, "hey, I can do something with this."

The army book tells of some humans who attempted to take a Carnisaur egg (with bad results). And I believe if humans evolved around where Wyverns were, they might well be riding them instead. It's just what happened.

But that's on a game world level. In a real world level, it just seems all human-y and noble and it would be odd for Dark Elves to be riding Sun Dragons and Orcs to be on Griffons and humans to be on Cold Ones.

**Ahtman**

To maybe expound on DukeRustfield's point, I think that Griffons are part of the Empire's culture having been in the area before it was even the Empire. They probably initially marveled at it, like the first time a human saw an Eagle. It became a symbol of the country. It could also be that it gives them a feeling of mastery over Chaos to some extent.

**Kroothawk**

In medieval society, Griffons, Hippogriffs, giant eagles and Unicorns were generally considered noble and featured on many coat of arms. They are to normal beasts, what elves are to humans: idealised species representing the good forces. GW copied this for their setting. I must confess that I don't know the official GW explanation ATM. But the Emperor rides a Griffon because he can, who will tell him that he shouldn't

**MeanGreenStompa**

Created by magic when the warp gates collapsed is not equal to creature of chaos. Chimera are brazenly chaotic and unstable monsters, griffons and hypogriffs are stable and combine the elements of 'noble' animals.

Their creation predates the establishment of human civilisation and humans (and more importantly elves, who taught humans much of how to have a civilisation) have learnt to tame them.

Also, remember 'choas' is not Chaossss, random magical nuke does not villains make.

It's like asking why good races employ magic.

Whilst I'd expect some foamy mouthed dudes with nails in their testes are gibbering about the emperor riding to battle evil atop a creature of evil, everyone else is really glad they get to have monsterous mounts for reasonable points on Team Good!

**ddogwood**

reds8n wrote:The griffon is part mammal and part avian.. plus perhaps some other creatures thrown into the mixture. That doesn't happen naturally, even on/in the warhamer world.

I dunno... the platypus is part beaver and part duck, eels are part fish and part snake, and rhinos are part unicorn and part elephant. Or perhaps just because an animal looks like a mix of two or more creatures, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is.

But as others have said, the fact that griffons are chaotic in their origin doesn't mean very much. It's pretty clear from the background that all Warhammer gods are chaotic in origin, too, yet the worship of Sigmar and Ulric and Morr and so on are all tolerated, and even encouraged.