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I just did lol. I have to totally change my army around for an upcoming tourny. Which means more standards in all my units which is valuble points I really cant afford. Time to hit the drawing board. *grumbles* Also on the plus note and something fairly amusing in blood and glory if I lost my unit of wild riders or my general I automatically lose *thumbs up*

Why? And why do you need more standards? It sounds like you're referring to the (Scenarios?) in the back of the book, as opposed to the six Battles in the front. I've heard that most tournies will likely be using the Battles, which are more standard.

Every army is going to have to change around, and MSU is no longer as effective, so I can see traditional wood elf armies struggling. However, I think we've got some good stuff going, too! And now you have a good excuse to finally take some treekin

The scenario he is referencing is a 'mission' it is one of the 6 missions generated for standard fantasy games, not a 'battle'

It has a special rule called breaking point. The more banners you have the more likely you are to win. At 2250, armies should probably have 4 standards. If their general is an exposed and likely to be killed monster-rider, then they should slip another banner in there.

Unit strength being gone, and the requirement of having ranks yourself to negate ranks is very difficult for wood elves. Couple the new stubborn rule for having more ranks, and wood elves will have an even harder time breaking anything before reinforcements can arrive.

Large monsters are harder to hit with BS based weapons, skirmishers are forced into a more strict, tighter formation...

Fire magic is getting buffed.

There is some good news... volley fire and musician reforms are two fantastic buffs for glade guard, and treemen are harder to hit with BS based weapons. But overall i would agree that 8th edition benefits other army types much more than the guerilla warfare woodelves.

ALot of the same things I was thinking shep. Seems like our one unit of eternal gaurd might become a must have. Or multiple units of it anyways. That or were to just spam alot of glade gaurd.

Seems like theres no point in taking a regular spell singer anymore either. Im using hireling wizard snow lol.

I don't play Wood Elves, but I do know a few things about them. Here are some other pluses:

1) Skirmishers in a forest are stubborn (or steadfast, or whatever the rule is now). Awesome for Dryads, etc.

2) 40mm based models can use their full attacks from the second rank, and get extra hits from Stomp attacks. Good for Treekin, and Treemen get Thunderstomp for bonus hits.

3) As noted, firing in two ranks is good for Glade Guard. Many S4 attacks.

4) You strike in initative order, all the time. So skirmishers can hang out in forests and not care if they get charged.

It seems to me that the Forest Spirit units are all kinds of good under the new rules, and the ranked Elf units are pretty good too. Elf skirmishers and cavalry seem to be much less good, but a big (10+) unit of Wild Riders should be a solid flanking unit.

Saber wrote:I don't play Wood Elves, but I do know a few things about them. Here are some other pluses:

1) Skirmishers in a forest are stubborn (or steadfast, or whatever the rule is now). Awesome for Dryads, etc.

2) 40mm based models can use their full attacks from the second rank, and get extra hits from Stomp attacks. Good for Treekin, and Treemen get Thunderstomp for bonus hits.

3) As noted, firing in two ranks is good for Glade Guard. Many S4 attacks.

4) You strike in initative order, all the time. So skirmishers can hang out in forests and not care if they get charged.

It seems to me that the Forest Spirit units are all kinds of good under the new rules, and the ranked Elf units are pretty good too. Elf skirmishers and cavalry seem to be much less good, but a big (10+) unit of Wild Riders should be a solid flanking unit.

Here are my problems with them though;
1) dependent on forests being present, hopefully more than the one WE bring. And now you have to sit there and wait. (fun game) We are only steadfast in a forest while everyone else will be steadfast everywhere else.
2) I don't play trees. I guess players are forced to take them now.
3) 2 ranks is nice. S4 only at short range.
4) Once again dependent on forests and sitting there watching the game unfold.

The dangerous terrain might be better, but all dependent on the dice roll. That unit you were hoping to bog down in a forest now might only take a couple of wounds before smashing into you.
Eternal guard are special unless your army is lead by a highborn. They are our good ranked infantry and pail in comparison to their cousins (black guard and phoenix guard)
big blocks of glade guard are pretty expensive at 12 ppm. sea guard are the same and have spears with ASF.

Whatever the case, I am still going to try to make a competitve but fun list.

Good points, Saber! Those are definitely some of the "good". I'm personally glad to see some of the other units get emphasized- I play a non-traditional wood elf list with lots of trees, so obviously I am biased/happy about some of those things getting better. Selfishly, I also hate getting the comments "Why don't you add in ____ unit", usually referring to traditional guerilla warfare MSU style, and ignoring the fact that I have a forest spirit army .

boogeyman- I feel you here... however, elves in general will benefit from going in initiative order, so that is a plus for us (not as much as for high elves / DE perhaps, but still a plus) as well as firing in two ranks as you mention. I have seen people talk about the "gunline" wood elf list as a possible effective one, but I don't know about it, and as you point out, I don't think it would be that fun. I'd be interested to see what you/we can come up with as far as the elf side of things.

I also just had two heroes on monstrous mounts commissioned over the last few months (first a noble on great stag, and just recently a spellsinger on unicorn which I'll use for the first time next week). I've heard that there are now drawbacks to having a monstrous mount (can't join a unit!? and both rider and mount are hit with cannonballs and the like?? I need to confirm these) so that's now quite an investment that I won't be able to take advantage of!

Still, I think this is always true when new rules come out, so I'm just going to put a few units to the side, and when the next army book comes out, maybe they'll be awesome and I'll be ready for it

A few more thoughts.

1) I have to buy more. Will need more glade guard and a bunch of eternal guard. (and they are metal. $) I would think about converting them from corsairs or something but they are such cool models to begin with.
2) I will finally have a reason to play the eternal guard.
3) WE are a little expensive (12ppm) to go hoard.
4) I am still thinking of trying 30 man units 10 wide. 25 volley shots or 40 attacks from an eternal guard unit. granted they would have to hit a unit 8-10 wide also.
5) Have to look into fast calvary. Will glade riders or wild riders be able to break ranks?
6) Now I can take 2x way watchers and 2x great eagles.
7) High initiative is a bonus, but low strength won't be causing a lot of wounds and the enemy will have a lot of attacks back against toughness 3.
8) Long drawn out combats are not in WE favor and it seems that is the way 8th is going.
9) Still love the models though, so going to try my hardest.

Also if your within short range with glade guard.
Opponent will be within charge distance. only needing double 6 for Dwarves to charge you

But theres banners which increase movement. And spells etc.
One luck charge roll and your archery block could be wiped out.
But 25 str 4 shots should wipe them out first

Can you stand and shoot if they are within short range? i dont know :( if you can then its fine


Also was looking into the wood elf magic lore. will have to wait for the errata but its pretty good. I think the spells are easier to cast and you can just take some cheap level 1 wizards to cast regeneration (hopefully staying 4+) on your combat units

Or just take spellweaver and get +4 toughness on them eternal guard

I played a test match and it seemed to me that we'd got better.

1) Init order means we're almost always striking first
2) shoot in double ranks and true LOS both help our shooting
3) Attacking a large unit from the front is not worth it, but we're maneuverable to get side charges all the time, and that's a hell of a lot of combat res going our way.
4) Nice new army compositions, like 2 eagles and 2 waywatchers

Seon wrote:Also if your within short range with glade guard.
Opponent will be within charge distance. only needing double 6 for Dwarves to charge you

But theres banners which increase movement. And spells etc.
One luck charge roll and your archery block could be wiped out.
But 25 str 4 shots should wipe them out first

Can you stand and shoot if they are within short range? i dont know :( if you can then its fine


Also was looking into the wood elf magic lore. will have to wait for the errata but its pretty good. I think the spells are easier to cast and you can just take some cheap level 1 wizards to cast regeneration (hopefully staying 4+) on your combat units

Or just take spellweaver and get +4 toughness on them eternal guard

I forgot to mention that. We will be having more shots in a turn, but less turns to shoot probably. Good point.

I didn't even think to look up the standing and shooting if it is less than 1/2 thier charge range. It had to have changed from last edition, charge distances are all varied now. hmmm.. good question. I know I was able to shoot with both ranks when I play tested. ( and with 16 bret bowmen ended with no deaths )

Are those new spells for WE? Right now you need to roll a 9+ for regeneration and I don't see any spell that gives them extra toughness. If it is from the lore of beasts or life, then only a level 3 or 4 spellweaver can use those lores. I've never been big on magic so I'm not sure about any of this.

I disagree with the title. I played with my WE for the first time last night. WOW I was expecting to get owned by the dwarves because he had ranked units and the interwebs are saying how uber they are. Well Dryads were doing on average 4-5 wounds on the dwarves and taking one in return, and I made sure to whittle them down with bowfire before I charged in so no stubborn, and the dwarves run.

Treeman is just stupid. Between his attacks and thunderstomp Treeman went from a tarpit to a killy unit. also ranked units cant benefit from the Stubborn( from more ranks) in a forest.

I totally love the new rules with WE. I expect that if some one goes magic heavy it will hurt, but with magic being balanced between the 2 forces WE are strong this edition.

neiltj1 wrote:I disagree with the title. I played with my WE for the first time last night. WOW I was expecting to get owned by the dwarves because he had ranked units and the interwebs are saying how uber they are. Well Dryads were doing on average 4-5 wounds on the dwarves and taking one in return, and I made sure to whittle them down with bowfire before I charged in so no stubborn, and the dwarves run.

Treeman is just stupid. Between his attacks and thunderstomp Treeman went from a tarpit to a killy unit. also ranked units cant benefit from the Stubborn( from more ranks) in a forest.

I totally love the new rules with WE. I expect that if some one goes magic heavy it will hurt, but with magic being balanced between the 2 forces WE are strong this edition.

Who said dwarfs were uber? They still suffer from a 3" move so your WE better be able to out maneuver them. You would have to widdle them down quite a bit if he was going big units. Maybe he was missing his rolls for charging although it shouldn't be too hard to stay around that 15" mark to get their str. 4 shots. Otherwise you are shooting str. 3 into toughness 4 with a 4+ AS, I wouldn't think that would widdle them down too much. The dwarf player should be planning on having enough models to get +3 ranks, +1 out number, and +1 for a banner. Dwarfs shouldn't ever rely on killing more than the other guy.

Dryads have always been tough. Treekin got a lot better and so did the Treeman. So once again you prove the point that the trees improved a lot and the rest of the elves are even more dependent on woods being in play. Look at the tables you play on, are they all covered in trees. Most games I play with WE are friendly and we usually make sure there are 2 plus the WE extra tree on the table, but there have been tables with no trees at all. Even with lots of trees, there are more places without, so therefore more chances for the ranked infantry to be stubborn.

I am not saying you can't win with WE. I just think I am being pushed towards forest spirits or hiding in whatever woods are available and making the enemy come to get me. I'm sure there is another way, I just haven't had the chance to experiment yet.

I only really have to get them to about 14 models before I charge. So a 20 block needs to loose 6 models from shooting. Then when I charge in he lost 5 models putting him at 9 wich means no second rank his static CR is 1 ie banner, but then I charged so my static CR is also 1. There is no longer a +1 for outnumber, because there is no unit str any longer.

As far as elves go, I took a unit of wardancers, they worked really well my only complaint is that they are a little expensive now that the enemy gets to attack so long as he has models left in his unit. There was a decent amount of terrain, but thats because there are suppose to be d6+4 pieces per game. Too many forests were hurting me because shooting through them was giving me a -1 to hit. And I do not own treekin so I dont know how well they work. I may convert some up though.

I never played with my WE before my two 8th ed games so I dont know really how my list would have done in 7th, but I am really happy how they played. So far I got a major win vs Dwarves, and a Massacre/table vs. Lizardmen. I hope to get some games in vs. Beastmen, Empire, and DE nextweek.

I am running into some issues with building a list of mainly, if not all, elves.

What is the rule for the stag or unicorn joining a unit?

I am really lacking in any high strength attacks.

Since both of our cavalry are fast cav, can we break or gain rank bonuses in 8th?

Just in case anyone was wondering, I can now confirm that you CAN have characters on Unicorns and Stags join units.

The rules state characters riding "Monsters" cannot join units, however both the stag and the unicorn are "Monstrous Beasts" not "Monsters", and so the rule doesn't apply.

Thanks lunarman. I guess I could run the stag and unicorn with my 6 wild riders to get 2 full ranks. I wonder how that would work? Does the champ have to go in the first rank? Do you lose the bonuses for the musician and standard bearer than?

One thing I'm curious about: In the new edition rules, will extra-base-size models work as they do now (Ex: 50mmx50mm in 25mm unit counts as two front-rank and two second-rank models), or is the new rule going to specifically be model-models (meaning a Screaming Bell, for instance, would require an increased frontage to keep the rank bonus for its host unit)?

Also note that monstrous beasts (stag and unicorn) now provide a combined profile. You use the rider's toughness and whoever has the most wounds.

Minsc wrote:One thing I'm curious about: In the new edition rules, will extra-base-size models work as they do now (Ex: 50mmx50mm in 25mm unit counts as two front-rank and two second-rank models), or is the new rule going to specifically be model-models (meaning a Screaming Bell, for instance, would require an increased frontage to keep the rank bonus for its host unit)?

Well, the screaming bell specifically states in its rules that it counts as the number of skaven it displaces for the purposes of ranks.

Other units without that explicit rule will likely count as one model.... slaan, shieldbearers, war-litter...

in most cases, It doesn't bother me that it is a disadvantage to add a jugger herald to a bloodletter unit. But it does suck for slaan temple guard combos and palanquin/sheild-bearer/war-litter type heroes that are clearly designed to be taken in regular sized units.

I am hoping that those particular models get a little clarification in the upcoming FAQ explosion.