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I've been playing a few months and Ive built up around a 1000 pt army. I'd appreciate advice on how to equip my squads as well as what should be added, keeping in mind that most of my games are played against necrons and niddies.

Heres my army so far

HQ: Abaddon , Ahriman on the way (I have a thing for the more powerful lords)

Elites: Possessed squad (traditionally ive given the champion mark of khorne for 4 Attack)

HS: a squad of 3 Obliterators

Troops: 15 chaos space marines, 8 Berzerkers

Feel free to critique the hell out of me.


On another note, Ive read a lot about how useful Slaaneshi Daemon Princes with wings and Lash are (particularly against nid MCs). Any thoughts?

Thanks

First of all, Abaddon really shouldn't be used in games under 2000 points. He's more suited to Apocalypse games, really. Daemon Princes will almost always be more effective.
Ahriman's not worth it. His psychic powers aren't that great, and he costs too much for what he has.
Possessed are terrible, being the 2nd worst unit in the Codex (next to Spawn). You're much better off going with some Terminators or Chosen.
Slaneshi Daemon Princes with Wings and Lash are fantastic and are much better than any Chaos Space Marine special character (except Kharn).
Your Troops choices and Heavy Support look pretty solid.

Possesed w/ Mark of Khorne will almost always get their points back. Mark my words Heavy support and troops are fine. Maybe rhinos? Ahriman is quite powerful, but seeing as most races have an anti-psyker whatsit these days, he's not as effective. Lash Princes are quite useful, as they can hold their own in a combat and woop enemies. Finally, Abaddon is hardcore, but I agree with the above poster-he's much more useful in larger games, mainly because there's more stuff from him to kill.

Abaddon is beastly but extremely restrictive in <2000 point games, as you really need a way to deliver him for him to do anything but get shot to hell and back. This means either a land raider or deepstrike, the latter requiring ablative wounds to shield him from nasty guns. As far as Ahriman goes... just dont take him. Use his model for a tzeentch lord, he will do better and be waaay less then ahriman.

much appreciated, I definitely see what you mean about abaddon. I'll definitely get some termies w a PF or something. The thing about Ahriman that i like is that he has inferno bolts which ignore the saves of necrons and most nid units. and he can use 3 psyker abilities per turn. Am i off base? and i think ill get a slaanesh prince next for sure, but aside from that, any other HQ units i should consider (lords, maybe a second prince, etc)? Fabius bile seems pretty useful...with an instant kill ranged attack and feel no pain, etc.

Demon Princes are probably the best choice. The most popular two are:

Mark of Slaanesh w/ Lash
Mark of Nurgle w/ Warptime

Other varieties have their merits. I'm trying a Mark of Tzen w/ Winds of Chaos and Warptime. It works pretty well, but I'm thinking it's too expensive for what it does.

Kharne is pretty darn brutal if you don't want the bullet magnet that is a prince. You pretty much have to drive him around in a Land Raider with a backup of berzerkers though.

Lash sorcerors have merit too. They're more survivable than the prince as you can hide them in a unit. They're less killy (still pretty nasty though in CC), but probably a more reliable lash if you're depending on it.

Yes you can use three pyschic powers a turn with Ahriman but not three shooting attacks. I have seen players use him and they use him to cast three Gift of Chaos per turn. He is more of a fun unit to use. If you want to use him go right ahead i myself have been using a Chaos Lord with wings, MoT, and Deathscreamer with a good bit of success. Just because people say that something doesnt work for them doesnt mean it wont work for you.

Vindicator#9 wrote:Yes you can use three pyschic powers a turn with Ahriman but not three shooting attacks.

The Black Staff of Ahriman: The Black Staff is a potent focus of psychic energy. It counts as a force weapon, and in addition it allows Ahriman to make up to thee Psychic tests in the same tun (one of these may be to use the special ability of his force weapon). It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase (he must target the same unit with all of them, however).

From his entry in the Chaos Space Marine codex...

You do your avatar, and your army, great shame.

However as far as OP is concerned, Ahriman = Fun, NOT competitive, DPs are far better.

You might also want to consider some Plague Marines as troops as they are quite beastly scoring units.

See what happens when you leave out one word. He cant use the SAME three psychic shooting attacks in the same shooting phase. There ya go.

What prevents you from casting three of the same PSA? Nothing in the Chaos Space Marine dex (including the Ahriman Entry) says you may only cast (for example) 'Wind's of Chaos' once per turn with Ahriman, in fact, quite the contrary.

If it were to be assumed that only one of each spell could be cast a turn (why you would assume this, I am not sure, but just for fun) then the Gift of Chaos x3 strat would not be possible,

if it is not the Psychic power that is limited but the # of actions then Ahriman's Black Staff overrides the "one shooting 'action' per turn" (and by RAW allows you to fire his bolt pistol BEFORE casting any PSAs but NOT after)

I think it is actually a mixture of the two (both # of actions and # of spells, for instance, a DP with Mark of Tzeencth could not cast warptime and Wind of chaos twice ((As MCs may fire 2 weapons per turn but may only cast 2 spells a turn)) but as Ahriman has a special rule that ignores these standard restrictions, he can cast warptime, and doombolt x 2 after firing his bolt pistol at a squad of unsuspecting Tactical Marines, dealing a potential (and more then likely) 7 wounds with one round of firing! Warptime-windx2 will almost always cause more wounds however!)

Hope that helps
~DAR
<Harry-Potter Marine Tactician>

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:What prevents you from casting three of the same PSA? Nothing in the Chaos Space Marine dex (including the Ahriman Entry) says you may only cast (for example) 'Wind's of Chaos' once per turn with Ahriman, in fact, quite the contrary.

If it were to be assumed that only one of each spell could be cast a turn (why you would assume this, I am not sure, but just for fun) then the Gift of Chaos x3 strat would not be possible,

if it is not the Psychic power that is limited but the # of actions then Ahriman's Black Staff overrides the "one shooting 'action' per turn" (and by RAW allows you to fire his bolt pistol BEFORE casting any PSAs but NOT after)

I think it is actually a mixture of the two (both # of actions and # of spells, for instance, a DP with Mark of Tzeencth could not cast warptime and Wind of chaos twice ((As MCs may fire 2 weapons per turn but may only cast 2 spells a turn)) but as Ahriman has a special rule that ignores these standard restrictions, he can cast warptime, and doombolt x 2 after firing his bolt pistol at a squad of unsuspecting Tactical Marines, dealing a potential (and more then likely) 7 wounds with one round of firing! Warptime-windx2 will almost always cause more wounds however!)

Hope that helps
~DAR
<Harry-Potter Marine Tactician>

If you read the rulebook it's quite clear: Page 50

PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACKS
Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks
are very common. Using a psychic shooting attack
counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon,
unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker
must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in
combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if
he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack. In the same
way, if a psyker targets a unit with a psychic shooting
attack, then he can only assault that unit in the ensuing
Assault phase. Even if a psyker has a special rule
allowing him to use more than one psychic power per
turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack (as
models can fire only one ranged weapon per turn).
However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged
weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of
the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic
shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power
twice in a turn).

It would be awesome to cast three Winds for him or Bolts but cant happen as Zulander quoted but futhermore since codex overrides rulebook.
From CSM FAQ:
Q. Can Ahriman use use the same power two or even three times during the same turn?

A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn!

If what you said were true i would use him more than once in a blue moon.

Yeah, three str 8 ap1 24" assault shots a turn would be insane.

Zulander wrote:Yeah, three str 8 ap1 24" assault shots a turn would be insane.

IMO, no. It sounds just right for Arhiman (esp. his points cost), but GW wanted to ram that stick just a little higher up the Dust Bucket Army's rear end.

-Sanct

PS:I'm not complaining, Dust Buckets suck!

Vindicator#9 wrote:It would be awesome to cast three Winds for him or Bolts but cant happen as Zulander quoted but futhermore since codex overrides rulebook.
From CSM FAQ:
Q. Can Ahriman use use the same power two or even three times during the same turn?

A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn!

If what you said were true i would use him more than once in a blue moon.

I find it funny that you reference this, which is by far the WORST ruling the GW council has EVER made (and jon, if you are to blame for this, shame on you!). Especially in regards to Psychic Powers. First off, it neg's out Eldrad's ability to duel-cast Mind War (in the worst of ways) and by technicality makes Aspiring Sorcerer's extremely overpowered... As they are psyker's with Marks of Tzeentch, if you give them Gift of Chaos, by direct word of Codex and GWs FAQ, you may cast Gift multiple times per turn (this would be 2 times, as per the Mark of Tzeentch rule) and is the only way to take advantage of the Mark of Tzeentch for these models. Also...*

Zulander wrote:
If you read the rulebook it's quite clear: Page 50

PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACKS
Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks
are very common. Using a psychic shooting attack
counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon,
unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker
must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in
combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if
he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack. In the same
way, if a psyker targets a unit with a psychic shooting
attack, then he can only assault that unit in the ensuing
Assault phase. Even if a psyker has a special rule
allowing him to use more than one psychic power per
turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack (as
models can fire only one ranged weapon per turn).
However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged
weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of
the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic
shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power
twice in a turn).

the "Still" references a piece of the rules not already included, seeing as only two models can really benefit from this ability (Ahriman and Eldrad) it would not be in the best of intentions (one would think) to assume this ruling directally relates to those models, and instead more then likely refers to Monstrous Creatures with Psychic abilities (such as Daemon Princes and various Tyranid units).

Also keep in mind, in no fashion is Ahriman ever referred to as a Psyker. Infact, Typhus IS (all of 2 pages away) referred to as a Psyker and Ahriman gets to take 3 Psychic Tests per turn via his Black Staff. If Ahriman were a normal psyker (and be forced to follow the typical rules that restrict psykers) then his profile would allow him 5 Psychic Abilities per turn, 3 Tests from his black staff, one for being a Chaos Psyker and One MORE for being a Chaos Psyker with the Mark of Tzeentch.

This is what makes the FAQ ruling so 'terrible' as Ahriman is specifically NOT listed as a psyker, and as such, should not fall under the normal rules of psykers (I.E. 1 of each shooting spell per turn, especially with the wording in his profile).

Keep that in mind the next time your Dark Eldar friend trys to Crucible of Malediction Mr. Ahriman... he is NOT a Psyker!

~DAR

I don't understand why your getting so upset about this. GW's Ahriman nerf via FAQ is old news. Yes its unfortunate and uncool, but I think we all are familiar with CSM's shortcomings. The nerfing of a 250 point character that can be one-shotted by a lucky melta or fist is just more of GW's CSM hating which they seem to be on right now. Hopefully in 2-3 years the new book will redeem him, but until now I think GW has made it exceedingly clear who they want you to use for HQ: Kharn and demon princes.

Well thanks for the very thorough input-ahem- on ahriman everyone, and ill make sure to only use him when very appropriate. speaking of DPs, i'm inclined to get two, one slaanesh w lash and one nurgle with warptime. and probably at least another three obliterators

Nice choices.

Back on topic:

Possessed get kind of a bad rap, since they are only as killy as Beserkers, but cost more. Alternately, they cost almost as much as Terminators, but aren't as good. They sit somewhere in between, which doesn't make them bad so much as it makes them inefficient. However, they look cool, are great to model, and really hard for your opponent to counter since he doesn't know what they can do until the game starts. So by all means, use them if you want.

Obliterators are good, especially for a starting army. They are tough, flexible, and shooty. They will serve you well. You might give some though to splitting them into two squads (Or maybe even three since you don't have any other HS) so that you can split your fire between more targets.

Troops look fine, but Rhinos should be your next goal for them. Rhinos will make your troops much more mobile, and give you some cover from enemy fire. Also, since you have 15 CSMs, and that is kind of an odd number you might try running them as two squads of 7 Plague Marines. Just for some variety.

As for the HQ discussion I'll chime in and say that if you do go with some of the higher points options then make sure you get your money's worth from them. Daemon Princes are very points efficient for what they do and good all around, Sorcerers are great at squad support with powers and Force Weapons, and Lords are your least efficient option, offering mostly more combat power to an army that is already excellent in CC. If you want a lord, take Lightning Claws or Daemon Weapons and maybe a combi-weapon, as those options make the best of a Lord's stat line.

Abaddon w/ Oblits works. Just sayin is all

I just dont know what im gonna do about all the damn tyranid MCs. there are so many! and it seems like they all have 6 T 6W and at least 6S. I guess ima need a giant obliterator horde...

Yeah taking out lots of monstrous creatures quickly is not Chaos's strongpoint. Oblits are good but that would be one fight were las/plas havocs would really shine, especially in a rhino to keep them mobile and away from those big bugs. Oblits are awesome but they are expensive and not especially hard to kill...

gargythewise wrote:I just dont know what im gonna do about all the damn tyranid MCs. there are so many! and it seems like they all have 6 T 6W and at least 6S. I guess ima need a giant obliterator horde...

Give your plague marines plasma guns, and consider plasma pistols for your champs as well.

Your DPs will give them a run for their money in melee (you have an invul, they typically don't) Oblits do have twin linked plasma guns (not bad for relentless guys eh?) but if you REALLY wanna stick it to the MCs, Defilers work WONDERS on those big boys (replace the flamer with another hand, either keep the autocannon or go lascannon for safer results!)

But yeah, Plasma-Plasma-Plasma to kill them damn MCs!

the specific entry

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

The Black Staff of Ahriman: The Black Staff is a potent focus of psychic energy. It counts as a force weapon, and in addition it allows Ahriman to make up to thee Psychic tests in the same tun (one of these may be to use the special ability of his force weapon). It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase (he must target the same unit with all of them, however).

From his entry in the Chaos Space Marine codex...

Ennkay wrote:

the specific entry

How are these different?

K people we've been over and over this. Yes the codex entry says that Ahriman can indeed use 3 shooting powers in a turn but the rule was later FAQ'd by GW.

Link: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610178_Chaos_Space_Marines_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf

odorofdeath wrote:K people we've been over and over this. Yes the codex entry says that Ahriman can indeed use 3 shooting powers in a turn but the rule was later FAQ'd by GW.

Link: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610178_Chaos_Space_Marines_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf

NO, all that says :



which MAY imply that he may only use one of EACH PSA (for instance, he can not dual-cast Wind of Chaos but he CAN cast wind of chaos AND doombolt)

also again, this ruling is one of the most controversial rulings (if not THE most controversial ruling) regarding Psychic Abilities in 40k to date. It is exploiting RAW used to prevent powergaming with certain models as a RAI to the only two models that were built and balanced according to their ability to multi-cast the same ranged weapon.

Also keep in mind, if you were to take this ruling direct and use it to over-ride current rules for psychic powers, if effectively states that ANY psyker with Gift of Chaos can use it UNLIMITED times (as it states, "Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack." without directly relating it to the original question (the proper wording would have been, "Gift of chaos is not a Psychic Shooting attack, so Ahriman may use any number of his Psychic tests to cast this ability ((meaning only able to spend 1-3 tests)) doombolt is a Psychic shooting attack, so Ahriman may only spend one psychic test to cast doombolt once per turn) The current word is blurry, leaves room for WAY to much interpretation (on a document that is supposed to CLARIFY the rules) and all around, is a poorly worded answer...

And again, Ahriman is NOT a psyker, so he doesn't follow normal rules/restrictions that other psykers do/should. If Ahriman were technically a psyker, he would be able to cast 5 abilities per turn (two of which could bet o use his force weapons special ability)

Black staff gives him 3 powers

Being a Chaos Psyker gives him +1 power

Being a Chaos Psyker with Mark of Tzeentch gives him +1 power

IF they wanted to make Ahriman a psyker, they would have. Typhus (all of 2 pages away) is classified as a Psyker in his profile... perhaps the reason they left Ahriman out of the psyker pool would be to allow him to have certain advantages (such as multi-casting the same PSA in a single turn) that other psykers did not.

The FAQ ruling council seemed to have overlooked this point when making this ruling...

Junk this whole list.Seriously. We all know this is a battleforce with abaddon.

Use a Slaanshilashprince (or two) for an HQ
Terminators with double lightning claws or powerfists for elites
Two Identical units of CSM (ie,10 marines,1 melta,1 flamer,rhino) for troops
Raptors (if you like them) with either a Flamer or Melta
Units of two or three obliterators for heavy


I recently had a doubles match where I used something like this. I used 2 princes,no elites, 2 units of CSM (with the above contents and two different champions). I can't remember, but I think I took a vindicator and two obliterators.

It worked fine, except our opponents picked off my princes within the first two turns (two railguns, 8 exorcist missiles and 3 battlesuits killed both of them...)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

The Black Staff of Ahriman: The Black Staff is a potent focus of psychic energy. It counts as a force weapon, and in addition it allows Ahriman to make up to thee Psychic tests in the same tun (one of these may be to use the special ability of his force weapon). It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same Shooting phase (he must target the same unit with all of them, however).

From his entry in the Chaos Space Marine codex...

Ennkay wrote:

the specific entry

How are these different?

they arent, but i seem to recall somebody saying you left out a word

No i left out a word and corrected it.