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Scatterlasers are great against light transports (AV10-11), and quite good against MEQ units in general. Not great against termies, but certainly not a waste of shots overall. 12 hits, 10 wounds, nearly 2 termies down/turn.

Alternatively, EML are much, much better against swarms in general. Against a Green Tide, where your opponent will have a hard time spreading their units out, those small blasts will cause serious damage. Doom will make your firepower much more effective, and is easier to use, compared to the measly range of guide.

Overall, I would say that the EML are the better weapon, mainly because they do not force a Farseer to stay right next to the WW squad. Doom is the better power, there is little to discuss on that point. With loads of small arms laying around, ALL of them will benefit from Doom, where the WW's would be the only one benefiting from guide.

EML also have the advantage of being a 4ft. ranged weapon, and because of that, your WW's will have a lot more flexibility. Against Chimeras specifically, the EML will generally perform better; same for most AV12 tanks. Firing S6 weapons at AV12, can be no less that wasted shots most of the time. An IG player that does not do everything in their power, to present only AV12 to your S6 weapons, is doing something wrong... Maybe there are a few obscure tactics involving side armor, perhaps for the extra length of the sides, but they are certainly not going to be something you run into regularly.

EML= Anti-horde, along with better performance against AV12.

S. Lasers= Anti-Meq, along with better performance against AV10-11.

I use S. lasers, mainly because I run a footslogging list, and my Farseer can easily stay in range of my WW. If I need to outflank, the S. lasers are usually more flexible (especially if I can get shots on AV10), but I don't see many swarm armies on the tables I play at. If I knew I was going to face a couple of Green tides, or some Nid spam, I would probably be upgrading to EML more often. If you need to save points taking S. cannons is an option, and the squad will be much cheaper for it; S. cannons are made for outflanking.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:EML's are a complete waste on walkers.

That sounds like an opinion...

6 small blast templates that do jack against terminators/marines/hordes(compared to the lovely scatter laser!)

Against small squads of MEQ, EML are not going to do very well. Forcing your opponent to spread out, provides you with a tactical advantage, but that won't necessarily make up for the lack of damage from your WW. So yes, EML are not great against MEQ.

Horde on the other hand... EML are much better than S. lasers. 6 small templates will hit around 30-35 models per turn, and benefit more from Doom, than S. lasers would from Guide (meaning: Doom is a better power, it makes the Farseer more than a WW lackey); not to forget that EML WW can use both Guide AND Doom, while S. lasers only benefit from Guide. Forcing a swarm army to spread out, can greatly reduce it's damage output; from both small arms, and assault units. While you can potentially get all 24 hits from your S. lasers, you can get 48 hits with your templates. Not that either of those situations are likely.

At maximum damage, 24 hits will average 20 wounds. S. lasers don't really gain anything from Doom.
At maximum damage, 48 hits will average 24 wounds. With doom, that becomes 36 wounds.

I have never had serious problems with 6 templates completely missing hits. I cannot say the same about un-guided S. lasers. If I were to also consider the T3 aspect of some swarm units, the usefulness of S4 templates is not just clear, it is blazingly crystal clear.

6 BS 3 shots for how many points? No thanks!

Oddly enough, BS doesn't really mean very much when it comes to templates... You gain two modes of fire (AT/AI), an extra foot of range, AP4 (kinda meh, really... too much cover everywhere), and the potential to do nearly 100% more damage against swarms.

...

Pinning as well, which is nice if you have a lot of pinning weapons. You'll need at least 10 pinning weapons to really make use of the bonus, though.

EML most definitely have their place in an Eldar army, and if you can actually make use of the AP4, S. lasers will look silly in comparison.

Open up Vassal, and test those templates out against an army with 180 troop models. I regularly get 5-6 hits against swarms/template, that is not hard to accomplish.

If your opponent has to spread his whole army out, so that I will only be hitting 2 models/template on average, I would honestly say that the EML have already done their job. The method of spreading an army that large, involves taking a large punch out of your swarm. With only one turn to WAAAGH! in, Orks are not going to be happy about spreading out all over the board.

Some of your numbers are just wrong, BTW. 5x6=30, and 70x3=210.

Units pay for the use of 4+ armor. If I were to face a squad of anything with an armor save of 5 or less, and was able to work around cover saves, the AP4 templates will just be better... much better. I do not consider that aspect of EML, a saving grace, but I also do not consider EML wasted points.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote: So... you get a direct hit with every template? Golly gee I wish I had your dice...

Hmmm... as I think you note below, you'll be hitting stuff left and right, simply because of the number of models on the board. There are only so many formations that are effective, and I can't think of any that would be practical enough to use as a counter to mass template fire. Squads that are 30 strong, are going to be taking up a huge amount of space.

Alright, how many opponents do you play that have 180 orks marching across the field, sure, in that instance, you outdo the scatter lasers.

I don't play against swarms that often, but they are common enough in general, to consider EML an effective tool.

Unless half of your usual opponents are 120+ orks, leave the missles at home!

((Vassal is open right now by the way! )

I try not to play against swarm armies...

It is relatively easy to navigate large numbers of orks around obstacles provided there isn't a plathora of area terrain.

I have seen the best of swarm players, trip over themselves constantly. It is just part of playing a swarm, they aren't very nimble.

One last thing, if you can pop transports at range, templates can take advantage of clumped units... just one last benefit to them. Again, not a massive bonus, but one to take note of.

No problem, I won't talk about the Farseer having to tag along within 6", within a squad of Harlies or whatever, just to make use of Guide. Doom is such a cool power.

Agreed to disagree.

Took a few minutes to put together this basic guide to small templates. Note the benefits of clumping units; a difference of roughly 650%, between a 2" spread and no spread. That difference can make or break a game, for a swarm army. Formations are very important.



Hmmm... not sure why I plugged in 2.5" templates. Oh well, fixed now.
Word to the wise, a perfect template hit will land you 12 hits... think about that for a second. 12x6=72. Don't get caught slippin'. That is 36 wounds w/o Doom, 54 with doom. If WH40k had squads in those numbers, small templates are the way to deal with them.

Thread jack.

If your weapons fire at 18", but you spread your troops at 2" a pop, what are the odds that the back row can fire? That's right, fractions... they will kick you in the head. Like a boss. When considering assault units, such as Ork boys (which rely on the charge, to do much of anything offense-wise), you should focus on formations. If that rather squishy squad doesn't get the charge, Storm Guardians can put up a good fight. Letting Storm Guardians do anything close to average in assault, will put your Orks to shame.

Don't put your Orks to shame.

It's humorous, because I prefer S. lasers overall. The benefits of EML are not fitting to my gaming environment, or style of play.

Guiding your WW is always a good idea, if you can manage to do it w/o crippling the rest of your army. My WW are not straying out of Guide range, until the 3rd turn or so. Either they have done their job by then, or they have failed. If I can get my WW close enough to assault, I might as well have taken Sc instead. I should try and figure out how to make use of them more, super cheap and effective is awesome.

Is one round of shooting worth 120 points? I can't figure out a way to make them not die, right after shooting a tank down or something. The 18 shots is serious for such a low cost.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:Yeah, 3rd edition I'm pretty sure it was. When War walkers could tkae holo-fields, and starcannons had three shots. But it is not to be anymore. Now they usually come in the hard hitter variety (EML), the shooty variety (SL), and the ninja variety (SC). Each has their own uses and they all play them farely well. You can't expect all three loadouts to do each other's role though, I think that's what you both have to realize.

No, I understand. I disagreed that EML were worthless, and very clearly explained why I felt that way. The diagram did it, if nothing else.

I am trying to figure out how to use Sc now. They have never really been more than an annoyance to most opponents, but I feel that they can be a star unit, if played effectively.
S. lasers are the standard for me, because they are flexible within a reasonable range, and they can be a very devastating shooty unit. For their price, they drop one of the largest payloads in the whole game. Cheap and Dakka-like, gotta love it.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
@Wrex:

I simply move a wave serpent in front of the squadron if I feel that they're in danger.

I guess you could stick them into a Mech list with Yriel, so that they could pop in turn two, and meet a flanking tank for cover.
They cost the same as a basic FP, but put tons more damage into transports. I think that is a tactic worth trying. If I stick S. lasers on them, they won't really be worth investing the tank for a turn, just trying to figure out how to make 5 point cannons worthwhile.

Maybe I should model some Warp spiders into jumping poses, so I can guarantee a ridiculous sneak attack. DS is pretty random though... but an autarch with a Melta, can shoot holes through just about anything. If the WW were like 1/2" shorter I could actually gain consistent cover.
I just get mad when I see how small Killa Kanz are...

Fifty wrote:Two War Walkers with Scatter Lasers costs 120. Three War Walkers with Shuriken Cannons costs 120...

You get 16 shots from the pair, or 18 shots from the trio. The 5+ or 6+ save will rarely make a difference - only when playing against Guard.

That leaves the issues of the weapon range. How much difference does those extra 12" of range make? I suspect it may be a lot?

That is not a bad idea, and I took a bit of time to think about it today.

The main difference seems to be the number of models in the squad, followed closely by the range/RoF of the weapons. 3 WW are going to have a hard time gaining cover from anything but tanks, while 2 WW can hang back and have a much better chance of finding their own cover. 16 shots is enough to shake tanks as long as the WW are still on the table, the extra range would be the main reason for that. With the extra model in the squad, S. cannon WW will be significantly harder to shut down, aside their vulnerability to meltas and the like.

If I were to replace FP with 2 S. laser WW, I would probably take two squads and consider taking a falcon for my last HS slot. 8 hits will give you about two glances, and a 66% (2/3) chance for a pen; vs. AV10 that will become something like 1-2 glance, and 2-3 pens. S. lasers will probably hit a lot harder over the course of the game, but S. cannons may provide more opportunities to jump into combat, or withstand meltas and the like. I don't see many squads getting assaulted, after firing 18 S6 shots at them... so I suppose that it is pretty clear S. lasers in a 2-man squad, are generally better.

Firing for 2 rounds, from within cover, sounds much better than firing once only to shoot yourself out of assault range. There are only a handful of situations where the S. cannons seem to be better, unless someone has any other ideas?

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:What about 2 WW with 1 ML and 1 SL each? 130 pts, 10 shots. More higher strength rather than than large amount of shots. Having a large amount of low Strength shots isn't what walkers, tanks and turrets are for. That's the troops job, yet I have added the Scatter Lasers, just in case if I put in 4 MLs and they miss, so it gives me a better chance if that were to happen. What do you think?

I try to avoid mixing weapons, unless it comes down to a cost issue. The only weapons that mix at all, are the SC and SL, and those aren't that great. SL and EML don't mesh very well, because they have different targets. Taking two different squads with completely different guns, is better than taking two squads with the same guns. WL are the only units I like to use combo weapons on, and that is mainly because doubling up is a waste of points for them.

I'm sure there are combos that are superior in some situations, but being able to perform a general role is more important to me. I like SL because they are good overall, and perform admirably against Meqs/Transports, which is not an Eldar strength. Fire dragons are neat up-close, but the only thing 'better' than WW at ranged Anti-meq, are Dark reapers... and I am not a fan of them.

Brother Bartius wrote:One piece of advice I'd give anyone starting out with WW is to magnetise the weapons on them.

How do you do that? I have come to the conclusion that it is best to make replicates of the shoulder mounts, so I can just use the pegs instead of magnetising.

WildeThing wrote:They are exceptionally easy models to magnetise too.

Not sure I understand why...

This is a modeling discussion, but I find eldar weaponry to be some of the most annoying weapons to magnetize. I like to use large magnets, so I don't have to worry about the guns constantly falling off. There is no easy way to use 1/4" magnets, let alone 1/8". The peg itself doesn't appear to even be 1/8", and a magnet that small would make the guns droop anyway.

If anyone can point me towards a guide, I would much appreciate it. The consistently slender gun-mounts for Eldar, don't make for a quick job.

Soup and a roll wrote:Sorry to be a pedant Wrexasaur, but the centres of your blast markers have to be over a model. This dramatically reduces the number of models you can hit with even minimal spreading. 5-6/small blast is a bit optimistic.

I was simply showing what the potential was, and addressing a point that EML can serve to force swarms to spread out. 5-6 has never been a problem for me, mainly because horde players don't have the time to set up advanced formations, and even the formations that could negate some of the EML damage, have some serious drawbacks. The farther a squad is spread out, the easier it will be to shoot with direct fire, as well as assault.

The math behind odds on a template is very hard to illustrate, and I really didn't have the time to do so. That diagram illustrates the maximum damage possible at different spreads; I probably should have given it a title. It doesn't matter if the template starts over a models base, especially concerning tightly packed squads. A small template dropped onto a no-spread squad, can actually deliver 12 hits, and that is with or without scattering. Like I said though, illustrating that would take me quite a long time. Accounting for the direction, is not really possible, so the whole excercise would be a bit pointless as well; templates are pretty random, and they perform best when a battlefield is covered in stuff to hit.

Orlanth wrote:I have never sen a horde unit spread out like that (first picture), there just isnt the space for it. Finding a clump of bodies to lay a blast down onto isnt difficult really, especially if you have enough terrain features to channel troops. Even a few scattered rocks are enough to channel large horde units.

Very few players would spread at 2", it just isn't possible in many situations to boot. I see most hordes tightly packed, or at a 1/2" to 1" spread, as to maintain some amount of mobility. The important part of the diagram, is the surface area a squad will take up at different spreads. 1.36 sqft. (1 ft. 4 1/2" roughly), is an awful lot of space, and it will make a squad vulnerable to many kinds of attack.

This exact same problem, is very true for terrain as well.