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Ok i played two x 1 thousand point games this weekend with my mate. I play Vanilla Marines, he is an Orky type of guy.

Ive probably only played ten games since a 15 year break, and im trying to grasp things again, but im struggling.

I lost both matches, although, if i hadnt forgotten to disembark a razorback on turn 5 (gain ground), i would have tied the game easily, and if i hadnt rolled a 2 on turn 5 probably won. And in the first i wasnt even aware you can move deffkoptaz 24" after i have deployed, then move 12"and then first turn assault pretty much all of my mech and destroy it before i can use it, and i cant get any saves cos i havent been able to move!

Anyway, He runs what seems a typical orky winning list, 2 deffkops for fast attack, 3 trukks and a BW with Roller, Big Mekk with that damnable KFF and lotsa boyz.

So, i think ive grasped this, but i would appreciate a veteran enightening me.. It seems pretty much that the only way to counter this type of thing would be...

1. If a guy has fast attack stuff that can scout move, ie deffkopters, SM bikers etc, and he has first turn, the only things you can realisitcally do to prevent an assault on your armour is to make a wall around your mech with your infantry OR keep them in reserve?

2. LS are not much use, because KFF is ridiculosly good, and that one shot MM will more than likely be saved, meaning you should take Bikers so you can phsyically assault an orks vehicles because they dont take the cover save in assault. After you score a shooty hit, they take it their 4+ cover save after you score a hit, and THEN roll to penetrate, and THEN if you manage to do all of that they roll it before you touch the damage chart? This seems to make it very unlikely that you are going to accomplish much with shooting and i am now leaning towards leaving my LS unfinished and taking my so far unused attack bikes instead.

3. Every single inf unit needs a transport

4. Always take some SM bikers over Land Speeders so you can assault vehicles first turn?

5. Dont forget to do gak!

mattyrm wrote:Anyway, He runs what seems a typical orky winning list, 2 deffkops for fast attack, 3 trukks and a BW with Roller, Big Mekk with that damnable KFF and lotsa boyz.

I find that dual TL-AC dreads are really handy for destroying trukks and koptas. The 4 shots per dread lessen the effectiveness of the KFF, and are overall a much better bang for your buck against AV 10.
Being STR 7, they are also hell on wheels vs. koptas. The hit 8/9 of the time, and wound 5/6 of the time. Sure he gets a 4+ cover save, but that still averages out to one dead kopta a turn.

To counter the BW and boys, a hard hitting counter assault unit would really work well here. Termies in a crusader LR go a long way to breaking that mob of boys. Mix up some lighting claws with the power fists and take the wounds he delivers with is PK to your TH termies. The only real challange I see here is that at 1k points, thats a huge point sink.

His trick of using the scout move with koptas only works if he wins first turn. You can surround your tanks with your infantry if your that worried about it -- as he cannot assault THROUGH your units. Just space your models 2' apart a make a screen. That might help you out some too.
Dreads don't need to worry about his assault much. His saw on the kopta is STR 7 on the assault, and STR 6 after, and goes against front armor after that. It might take a turn or two, but eventually the dread will take down the kopta in assault.

Thanks for that advice, as i said, im aware (now that i lost a game!) of the tactics, i was just curious if there was another variant other than a infantry wall or reserving your army, thanks for the advice anyway

Well my marines are a bit different as black templars, but i am sure you can make use of some of the tactics. You already seem to understand step 1 is destroy the trukk, and take out the mek. You also figured out there are two ways to do this, shooting or melee. It comes down to what you have. 1 Vehicle alone can make this easy, a vindicator. You can slam the trukk and anything around it with a large template strength 10, yea, he has a 50/50 chance to save against it, but if not, almost guaranteed trukk death. Also, if he runs any form of kan wall to benefit from the shield, almost guaranteed can death upon failed save too. If you have one, ring a small unit around it, and position it fairly close. On your turn you can move it 6" and fire off the gun, hopefully eradicating them. If this fails, or if you dont have a vindicator, a predator annihlator works good too, locate it as far away as you can, with a small squad for protection, even if he saves against 2 of the lascannons the third one will almost always make it through, and strength 9 means guaranteed glance at worst, immobilize that sucker and have a turkey shoot if it doesnt break. Bikers are NOT <at least as templar> built for an assault. The only unit that you have that could be useful for this, would be one or two rhinos with full tac squad inside, give leader power fist, turbo towards the enemy if they are too close, then pop smoke. Next turn go in and assault. This method is riskier, depending on placement of their models, how many units with PK they have. I am a fan of the vehicle shooting style. Don't have vehicles? No Problem! Snipers/devastator squads work wonders too ( or in my case, sword brethren) not sure what weapons besides snipers you get, but mine get lascannons, plasma cannons, multimeltas and heavy bolters, all of which have a chance <though the bolter is pretty small> at popping the trukk. One mek with KFF is easy to compensate for, spread your troops out with the firepower, and I mean waaaaaay out. This way you have fire coming from all over, the orks mostly fight well only in groups, so whichever unit they go after they will roll over, but your firepower will wittle them away once that trukk goes down, with relative easy. So in this case it is truly, divide and conquer, though instead of dividing your enemy you divide yourself.

Again not 100% sure how useful this is for vanilla, I hope it works as well as it does for templar, because my boys, beat ork butt. And as an ork player too, I have had a hard time defeating this strategy. My boys are a tad cheaper, out number you, and get zeal moves, and this makes a big difference, either way, keep at it, and you'll get him! Best of luck.