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I seem to win A LOT, and I havn't been playing very long (just under a year and a half), and most of my opponents are quite experienced. I don't want to just jump to the conclusion of " I'm a Tactical genius! " or "I'm really effing lucky" because I make mistakes alot and most of the time my dice rolls are awful. So here it is. Don't hold back, tell me what I should do to make it less cheesy (if it is)

HQ:
Shrike
total - 195

Cassius
total - 125

Troop:
Tactical Squad
10 models
Power Fist
Flamer
Missile Launcher
total - 195

Tactical Squad
10 models
Power Fist
Meltagun
Missile Launcher
total - 200

Scout Squad
5 models
Sniper Rifles
Camo Cloaks
Sgt Telion
total - 140

Elites:
Assault Terminators
5 models
Thunder Hammers / Storm Shields
total - 200

Dedicated Transport
Land Raider Crusader
Extra Armour
Multi-melta
total - 275

Techmarine
Servo harness
Power Weapon
total - 90

Fast Attack:
Assault Squad
10 models
Power Fist
Storm Shield
Flamer
total - 240

Heavy Support
Predator
TL Lascannons
Lascannon Sponsons
Chronus
total - 240

This is the list i played with yesterday. Normally i drop the Pred and take: a dreadnought, a couple extra terminators and some different weaponry on my Tac squads, but i wanted to try out the pred instead.

Edit: also, i bolster the ruin my scouts are in (2+ cover), and put the techy and cassius with the termies in the LRC and outflank with shrike + assault squad

Umm.... not even close to cheesy/beardy.

Can C:SM even make a cheesy army?

edit: Doesn't even look like a tourny winning list to me.

Looking at the list I am not sure what makes it broken or cheesy. It is a very balanced list that has adequate troops choices and does not min/max on anything. Do I think it is a tournament winning list... no. Do I think it is a list you can compete with and do well with do to the fact it is well rounded... absolutely.

If someone calls you cheesy it's because they are a sore loser. I would love to play against your list. What you could do if you're not happy with it is make one that is more true to raven guard fluff. I'm not a marine expert but don't raven guard use lots of scouts and assault marines and then drop pod in other guys. They used guerrilla warfare and didn't have access to the big tanks. Drop the treminators and the tanks and get some drop pods, more scouts (make them assault scouts), and drop the special characters that are the ultramarines and not raven guard.

@Dracos

Yes... yes they can.

@spartanghost

I think most of they're concerns lie with your terminator squad, and Shrike's squad.

Turn one assault of terminators, usually nasty.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:@Dracos

Yes... yes they can.

You should post such a list. I would like to see what you are considering cheesy. Perhaps part of the problem is that I don't really find any legal list cheesy.

That is a very mild list, no cheese at all.

Cheese is purely subjective anyway, it has no real definition, so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

I agree with Dracos, no legal list is cheesy, IMO.

Well, that certainly makes me feel better about my wins. Noone's ever called it cheesy (everyone i play against are very very sportsmanlike. I'm a lucky one), I was just worried it is. I'd *like* to do more scouts, but the truth is i love my termy deathstar too much to get rid of it.I'd be willing to drop the tank/dread though. and I do have long term plans to replace the tac squads with boatloads of scouts. I might keep the dread though and stick it in a pod (that's actually fluffy for raven guard, believe it or not)

Edit: Conversely, for those who say it's not a tournament winning list, What would you suggest i change to make it one?

Okay I threw together a list which although greatly altered, really reinforces its strengths.

HQ
Shrike 195

Troops
Tactical Squadx10 Lascannon/plasmagun/rhino 225
Scout Squadx10 PF/ combat blade+ bolt pistols 165
Scout Squadx10 PF/ combat blade+ bolt pistols 165

Elites
Terminator assault squad x6 1x Lightning claw, 5x TH/SS 240
Dedicated Transport Landraider redeemer Extra armor, multimelta 265

Fast attack
Assault squadx10 PF/ 2x flamer 235

Heavy
Predator AC/lascannons 120
Predator AC/lascannons 120
Predator AC/lascannons 120

1850

Woah. 3 preds? sounds crazy. also, why the LC and plasmagun on the tac squad? and no power fist?

I think i'd trade a pred for a vindicator, or a dreadnought w/ multimelta and CCW

Not cheesy, not particularly threatening looking on paper... but I like this list. Especially Cassius. I've wanted to try him but as a fellow player of Raven Guard I'm a bit wary of mixing special characters... that and my second HQ is typically a Jump Chaplain or Librarian to run with a second Assault Squad.

One question though.... why the techmarine? Sure, he bolsters the scouts ruin... but it's almost a Dreadnought's worth of points for an extremely average IC with enough attacks that people wanna single him out. How does he perform for you? I mean, I can't see him fixing a lot of vehicles... you only have two in the above list.

spartanghost wrote:Woah. 3 preds? sounds crazy. also, why the LC and plasmagun on the tac squad? and no power fist?

I think i'd trade a pred for a vindicator, or a dreadnought w/ multimelta and CCW

The point of the list is that the 2 scout squads and assault squad are infiltrating/outflanking. They need to have targets dismounted from any transports asap to restrict mobility and give good targets for you to assault.

You are starting with only the LRR, predators and rhino on the board. You do not want the tactical squad to get into combat, it is meant to be a durable objective holder. Therefore the weapon loadout makes sense, as does the absense of a PF.

Vindicators are not as good here as it would really diminish your capacity to destroy transports/light vehicles/MCs. Comparably costed dreadnoughts will be too slow to matter.

my 2c

I think Cassius is a great character for his price. He's the cheapest useful HQ IMO.

You can just call him something else in your army if you're striving for a raven guard theme. Just call him the eldest chaplain of the raven guard chapter or something cool.

I think your list looks pretty good with a balanced attack of firepower, even if you change around some stuff, I recommend keeping your two HQs, it separates firepower a little. (jump pack HQ and LR rollin' HQ)

I like the list and I dont think it is cheesey at all either. I am a huge fan of Shrike. His versatility to me is what makes him great. I run him with either my termies or my 325 point 5 man Vanguard unit from hell.

Vanguard? They're waaaay too expensive imo.

I'd want to take the Vindicator because I want to have a big low-ap template, even if it doesnt have great range. Space marines are played by 80% of the people i regularely play, so Having that ability to force jump packs and other 3+ units into cover is important. As it is i have to assault them with one of my death stars to reliably take them out.

spartanghost wrote:Vanguard? They're waaaay too expensive imo.

I'd want to take the Vindicator because I want to have a big low-ap template, even if it doesnt have great range. Space marines are played by 80% of the people i regularely play, so Having that ability to force jump packs and other 3+ units into cover is important. As it is i have to assault them with one of my death stars to reliably take them out.

Take the vindicator, but head my word of caution. The vindicator will atract EVERY SINGLE ANTI-TANK WEAPON TOWARDS IT! No one likes a vindicaotr running around the board, so be prepared to lsoe it and dont base your army around it. But they are great tanks for what they do.

That's actually a pretty good thing. keep stuff off my LR. too many times has it been neutralized before it can projectile vomit glorious glorious death onto an opponent's lines.