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I haven't made an army list for tyranids in 5th edition yet, and here is my first attempt at it. Please critique the list, and don't hold back!

HQ
-Tervigon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines - 180

Elites
-2 Hive Guard - 100
-2 Hive Guard - 100
-2 Hive Guard - 100

Troops
-Tervigon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, Onslaught - 195
-Tervigon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, Onslaught - 195
-10 Termagants, Fleshborers - 50
-10 Termagants, Fleshborers - 50

Heavy Support
-Tyrannofex, Rupture Cannon, Desiccator Larvae, Cluster Spines - 265
-Tyrannofex, Rupture Cannon, Desiccator Larvae, Cluster Spines - 265

Total - 1500

So my game plan is to use the Tervigons to make lotsa termagants to hold objectives (obviously), and give onslaught to the hive guard and tyrannofexes, so that they may move faster and pop tanks or transports. What do you guys think of this list?

Onslaught is a funny power, quite a shame if used on models without fleed but funny in anycase.

Anyway, You should alwais take Catalyst on Tervigons.
Onslaught is a good bonus but without Catalyst all yours Termagants willl be nuked down without any difficulty.

Besides, even if on Tyranid Guards Onslaught sound quite usefull in the first turn (to tale position) isnìt absolutely interesting on Tyrannofexes, they totally donìt need to advance.

Honestly I think this is a decent list however an elite CC unit is going to shred through these units and will take ages to stop them, such as FNP nobs with Warboss or FNP BA Termies.

I think Acardia's got it. You have a lot of resilient units, but not any that focus on CC. Your list seems to rely on shooting but you can't really throw a lot of shots out, and certainly not enough to weaken an assault list for your other units to clean up.

See, you only have like, 4 different units in your entire list, in an army that thrives on synergy and variety. Sure, you can have a Tervigon camp an objective and make babies...but then what? How do you hold it, how do you push your opponent off of a contested objective for a win?

I honestly don't know how to change your list to improve it without breaking it down to smaller parts...it looks like you've got a good starter force, but then just decided to double it instead of branching out into different unit types; so you tell me, what do you want the list to do? Are you trying to drown him in your blood and bury him under your bodies, do you want to lure him in with the promise of tasty assault fodder and then counter attack with some heavy hitters?

How do you want to play your nids?

Thank you very much for the feedback, and I can see that handling assault units is a problem with this list. I'm not really sure how to go about handling it, but I could take out some hive

guard, or a tervigon w/ termagant squad, or even a tyrannofex, and add a unit or two of genestealers with a broodlord. Alternatively, I could add one or two carnifexes with scything talons to

charge objectives. Any opinions on those options? Please and thank you

P.S. I will replace Onslaught with Catalyst.

42 T6 wounds @ 1500. A solid list.

At least 1 catalyst caster is recommended.

In my opinion it's a poor list, but don't take that personally as my first few lists (as Im sure with all other players since the new release) were pretty poor as well.


RxGhost's post is solid. The point about the different units + synergy is an important one. Tervigons are nice but you soon realize that they, and the termagaunts they produce, are pretty terrible against solid infantry units. I've sent waves and waves of termagaunts at small groups of terminators, only to end up just slowing them down a little (which in its context, was great for me, but not so great if theyre your sole source of anti infantry).

Personally, here are my personal rules (after playtesting) to making a Tyranid list:

-Elites are either Zoanthropes or Hive Guard only. I might as well scratch the other options out.

-Always bring atleast 1 Tervigon, but never more than 1 at 1500 points, and never more than 2 at 2000 points.

-Always bring 1 Tyrannofex above 1500 points, but never more than 1 below 2000.


If you were to drop a T-Fex, 2 Tervigons and the useless gaunt squad (to fit in with the above rules), you could have 690 points. That is an incredible amount to work with. Hormagaunts are fantastic options, as are gargoyles. Raveners are also a great quick unit. There are quite a few solid options out there. With Tyranids you cannot spam any unit (other than Hive Guard in my opinion) as everything has a weakness, and no single unit can play every role.

Good Luck with the list, hope this helped.

EDIT: Oh, I wanted to mention that I too thought Feel No Pain would be better than onslaught by a mile, but after play testing and seeing all the situations it was useful in, I quickly switched to onslaught as the primary power. Im still trying to figure out if I should go onslaught/onslaught or onslaught/catalyst when i have two tervigons.

I don't agree with Night Lords's rules, especially if they're meant to be hard and fast. He's right about the synergy, but you have to find a balance between synergy and saturation.

For instance, I assume that in single-tervigon lists (as in dual- or triple-) the tervigon is used to spit out a free screen, provide synapse, and buff a shooting unit. All three tasks are very important, especially if you're running a slow list. Unfortunately, with dedicated fire an opponent can kill a tervigon fairly easily. One is a pretty fragile lynchpin. Two, on the other hand, can use each other for cover and ensure a solid meat shield.

I'm still messing around with my 1500 pt list, but it will definitely have two Tervigons.

Three is almost certainly too many, though; as others have said, you'll lack any counterpunch or, really, much punch at all.

Here's a quick revision, keeping as much of the original as possible.

Tervigon (HQ) with Toxin, Adrenal, Catalyst
Tervigon (Troops) with Toxin, Adrenal, Onslaught
10 Termagants
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
T-fex with Rupture Cannon
T-fex with Rupture Cannon
10 Genestealers w/ Toxin
10 Genestealers w/ Toxin

I think that's 1500 on the nose, but I did the math mentally, so you might wanna check it.

The 'stealers give you some nice deployment flexibility and some counterassault. Just make sure you keep them in cover or CC, and hopefully away from flamers.

I'd advance with T-fexes in front, Tervigons directly behind (for cover and so they can spawn over the T-fexes' shoulders), Hive Guard behind them, or alongside the T-fexes if you're comfortable having them shot), 'stealers infiltrating or between Tervigons and Guard.

Hope that helps.

I'd have to agree with Hesperus on most of his points (Though the list he suggested is 110 points over). 2 Tervigons at 1.5k is a beautiful thing, they are great support models (and are decent on the assault in a pinch). I prefer Catalyst as a psychic power, but I have been in situations where onslaught would have been nice.

Personally, I cant stand T.fexes. I have found that trygons with adrenal glands are as good if not better at popping armor of all types and are much more useful at taking on infantry and disrupting your opponents lines. This is also on top of being quite a bit cheaper than the t.fexes. The only vehicles that trygons have a hard time getting is fast vehicles that move away, but most of those are easily downed by hive guard.

If you are really concerned about AV 13-14, I would consider possibly dropping one or both the t.fexes for trygons and upgrading the third unit of hive guard to a unit of zoanthropes in a mycetic spore. I'm not sure if this goes to far against what you are going for, but its a suggestion.

Good choice on the HQ by the way. After many games I have finally resigned myself to shelving my hive tyrant for most games. For his points cost he really can't seem to pull his weight.

Night Lords wrote:In my opinion it's a poor list, but don't take that personally as my first few lists (as Im sure with all other players since the new release) were pretty poor as well.


RxGhost's post is solid. The point about the different units + synergy is an important one. Tervigons are nice but you soon realize that they, and the termagaunts they produce, are pretty terrible against solid infantry units. I've sent waves and waves of termagaunts at small groups of terminators, only to end up just slowing them down a little (which in its context, was great for me, but not so great if theyre your sole source of anti infantry).

Personally, here are my personal rules (after playtesting) to making a Tyranid list:

-Elites are either Zoanthropes or Hive Guard only. I might as well scratch the other options out.

-Always bring atleast 1 Tervigon, but never more than 1 at 1500 points, and never more than 2 at 2000 points.

-Always bring 1 Tyrannofex above 1500 points, but never more than 1 below 2000.


If you were to drop a T-Fex, 2 Tervigons and the useless gaunt squad (to fit in with the above rules), you could have 690 points. That is an incredible amount to work with. Hormagaunts are fantastic options, as are gargoyles. Raveners are also a great quick unit. There are quite a few solid options out there. With Tyranids you cannot spam any unit (other than Hive Guard in my opinion) as everything has a weakness, and no single unit can play every role.

Good Luck with the list, hope this helped.

EDIT: Oh, I wanted to mention that I too thought Feel No Pain would be better than onslaught by a mile, but after play testing and seeing all the situations it was useful in, I quickly switched to onslaught as the primary power. Im still trying to figure out if I should go onslaught/onslaught or onslaught/catalyst when i have two tervigons.

I have to dissagree with this advice. 3 tervigons can produce better close combat units than hormagaunts/raveners and gargoyles. guants with furious charge and toxin sacs can take a lot of infantry..even feel no pain terminators. you just have to stick those tervigons together and use catalyst on each other. this list looks great because you you got enough anti tank and 5 MC's with cluster spines and close combat gaunts to kill infantry.

I have to dissagree with this advice. 3 tervigons can produce better close combat units than hormagaunts/raveners and gargoyles. guants with furious charge and toxin sacs can take a lot of infantry..even feel no pain terminators. you just have to stick those tervigons together and use catalyst on each other. this list looks great because you you got enough anti tank and 5 MC's with cluster spines and close combat gaunts to kill infantry.

That is what I was thinking when I made this list, I figured termagants with toxin sacs and adrenal glands could handle a lot, but I think some stealers could be used to great effect in this list. How is this revised army list? Better than the first?

HQ
-Tervigon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, Catalyst - 195

Elites
-2 Hive Guard
-2 Hive Guard
-2 Hive Guard

Troops
-Tervigon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, Catalyst - 195
-10 Termagants, Fleshborers - 50
-8 Genestealers - 112
-8 Genestealers - 112

Heavy Support
-Tyrannofex, Rupture Cannon, Desiccator Larvae, Cluster Spines - 265
-Tyrannofex, Rupture Cannon, Desiccator Larvae, Cluster Spines - 265

Total - 1494

Also, any advice on how to split up genestealer squads would be useful. Thanks!

shogun wrote:
I have to dissagree with this advice. 3 tervigons can produce better close combat units than hormagaunts/raveners and gargoyles. guants with furious charge and toxin sacs can take a lot of infantry..even feel no pain terminators. you just have to stick those tervigons together and use catalyst on each other. this list looks great because you you got enough anti tank and 5 MC's with cluster spines and close combat gaunts to kill infantry.

Termagaunts cannot kill heavy infantry.

Guess how many terminators a squad of THIRTY fully upgraded termagaunts, on the charge, are going to kill? 3.75. Oh, you said feel no pain? 1.4.

And...in order to pull this off, you need to have:

-All 3 tervigons right next to one another
-Roll completely average with all 3
-Be within 12" of a squad of terminators with all 3 squads

Yea, that's going to happen often. And even if it does you get extremely poor results.

Hmm, yea, that's much better in close combat than the 7 rending claw Raveners you can get for the same amount of points....


7x5 = 35 attacks...29.4 hits -> ~15 wounds with 5 of those being rending on any type of unit T4. Oh yea, and theyre faster (potentially twice the distance of termagaunts)...and dont require baby sitting...and dont require not rolling doubles.

Hormagaunts get 90 attacks, 60 hits after rerolls, 30 wounds = 5 missed armour, 2.5 missed feel no pain. So about 50% better than fully upgraded termagaunts (who again, are slower, require baby sitting, explode when the baby sitter gets shot down, etc).

Gargoyles are just as effective as termagaunts except:

-Theyre faster (allowing them to shoot more frequently without worrying about charge range models being taken off)
-Give MCs cover saves
-Are fully upgraded and can put it to use (Furious charge) without a baby sitter or requiring your opponent to place his units within 12".


And, after all this, it should be noted that the (already lackluster) close combat abilities of the termagaunts drop tremendously in the second round of assault (if they live that long) when they are NOT charging, or even if THEY are charged themselves. Hormagaunts can win in successive rounds. Raveners can as well.

Dont get me wrong, Tervigons are great as are the free termagaunts. They are fantastic speed bumps to slow down an expensive unit while the rest of your army deals with what they can. It's a great feeling forcing your opponent to chew on crappy termagaunts with his 300 point unit. Heres a tip...if youre dealing with nobs/terminators and (now knowing the math and how crap those 10 termagaunts you just spawned will do) you want to assault - dont. Instead, move/run your termagaunt unit and completely surround them. Then on his turn during his movement phase, he cant move (unless they are jump infantry obviously). Next turn repeat this and waste yet another turn for that unit.


Point is, you cannot rely on Tervigons/Termagaunts for your anti infantry. It just doesnt work.










Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fearspect wrote:@Night Lords: If 150 points in gaunts is all that is required to take on 200+ points in terminators, I'll take all I can. Your point makes no sense.

Further rounds mean more just keep pouring in to a combat like that. You also forgot to account for the Terminators you killed by shooting them all before assaulting that first time.

*woosh*. That is the point of the post flying over your head.

The point is that it is a highly unlikely situation. I gave every benefit of the doubt to the termagaunts ignoring their weaknesses (actually having thirty, having terminators within 12", having all tervigons alive to give bonuses, getting the charge, tervigon not exploding, etc.) and they still came out with poor results.

However, the reality of it all is that theyre slow and weak, meaning they get charged by anything with jump packs/bikes/fleet/wings etc. In this case hormagaunts get twice the attacks, initiative 5 and rerolls to hit with no disadvantage. Raveners still get 4 attacks each at I5 and WS5.

I would also love to see how a list relying on termagaunt spawns deals with kill points. That mediocre 30 man unit mentioned in the previous post would be worth 3 (!) kill points.


EDIT: Wow, this topic is wonky. This is a reply to the post below.

@Night Lords: If 150 points in gaunts is all that is required to take on 200+ points in terminators, I'll take all I can. Your point makes no sense.

Further rounds mean more just keep pouring in to a combat like that. You also forgot to account for the Terminators you killed by shooting them all before assaulting that first time.

Night Lords wrote:
Termagaunts cannot kill heavy infantry.

Guess how many terminators a squad of THIRTY fully upgraded termagaunts, on the charge, are going to kill? 3.75. Oh, you said feel no pain? 1.4.

And...in order to pull this off, you need to have:

-All 3 tervigons right next to one another
-Roll completely average with all 3
-Be within 12" of a squad of terminators with all 3 squads

Yea, that's going to happen often. And even if it does you get extremely poor results.

you always stick those tervigons together because the need to put catalyst on each other. If those terminators get within 18 inch (not 12 inch) you can assault them. spawn about 30 termagaunts within 6 inch....walk 6 inch....shoot with the flesborers (and the tervigons cluster spines) and assault 6 inch.

shooting: 30 shots, 15 hits, 7,5 wounds to save, about 1,3 wounds and after feel no pain you got about 0,6 wounds to kill..
assault: 60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 15 rerolls (toxin sacs) and that makes 22,5 wounds to save, makes 3,75 wounds and after feel no pain you got 1,88 wounds to kill.

you kill about 2,5 terminators this way and with the cluster spines you can maybe push it to 3 dead terminators. Even when you kill only 2 terminators you got 3 terminators left that got 6 attacks, hit with 3 and kill about 3 gaunts. At the blood angels turn you might lose a few gaunts but at the next tyranid turn you can make new gaunts and assault with them or the tervigons.
these results are not poor...

Night Lords wrote:
Hmm, yea, that's much better in close combat than the 7 rending claw Raveners you can get for the same amount of points....

7x5 = 35 attacks...29.4 hits -> ~15 wounds with 5 of those being rending on any type of unit T4. Oh yea, and theyre faster (potentially twice the distance of termagaunts)...and dont require baby sitting...and dont require not rolling doubles.

Hormagaunts get 90 attacks, 60 hits after rerolls, 30 wounds = 5 missed armour, 2.5 missed feel no pain. So about 50% better than fully upgraded termagaunts (who again, are slower, require baby sitting, explode when the baby sitter gets shot down, etc).

Gargoyles are just as effective as termagaunts except:

-Theyre faster (allowing them to shoot more frequently without worrying about charge range models being taken off)
-Give MCs cover saves
-Are fully upgraded and can put it to use (Furious charge) without a baby sitter or requiring your opponent to place his units within 12".


And, after all this, it should be noted that the (already lackluster) close combat abilities of the termagaunts drop tremendously in the second round of assault (if they live that long) when they are NOT charging, or even if THEY are charged themselves. Hormagaunts can win in successive rounds. Raveners can as well.

Dont get me wrong, Tervigons are great as are the free termagaunts. They are fantastic speed bumps to slow down an expensive unit while the rest of your army deals with what they can. It's a great feeling forcing your opponent to chew on crappy termagaunts with his 300 point unit. Heres a tip...if youre dealing with nobs/terminators and (now knowing the math and how crap those 10 termagaunts you just spawned will do) you want to assault - dont. Instead, move/run your termagaunt unit and completely surround them. Then on his turn during his movement phase, he cant move (unless they are jump infantry obviously). Next turn repeat this and waste yet another turn for that unit.


Point is, you cannot rely on Tervigons/Termagaunts for your anti infantry. It just doesnt work.

Yes I would have rather have 5 rending raveners against terminators...but: the are not scoring and cannot stay save inside a tervigon and same goes for gargoyles. The will get shot to pieces and will not arrive with there full unit.

In a 1500 point game its very hard to take down 3 tervigons with catalyst and when you get inside that 18 inch gaunt spawning bubble you will get tarpitgaunts that can take down a lot of infantry!

But shogun... Tyranids aren't allowed to take anything unless it tears through Terminators in a single round of combat.

So... nothing?

I love how people twist things on here. The ridiculous above post is an example.

Termagaunts as the sole source of anti infantry are not good. They need other units to compliment them. Yes, sending 30 termagaunts to not even kill a single squad of terminators is terrible. Why? Because that's likely your entire termagaunt force. You people are talking as if tervigons supply an unlimited amount ("You can just send more in next turn")- they dont. By turn 2 or 3 theyll be out.

Sometimes you get unlucky and it's turn 1. With 3 tervigons it will happen at different times, and it is VERY possible to lose 2/3 on the first turn! Ive rolled a magical 3,3,1 on first turn. By rolling below average with Tervigons you are essentially crippling yourself if it is your sole source, much more than the benefit of rolling above average. In a tournament setting with 3-4 rounds, you are going to roll terrible at some point, and getting annihilated in only one game will leave you well below the top scores.

"But Night Lords, your example was great...not poor!!"...did you not read the part where they were completely unrealistic conditions in an isolated situation (ie. Not accounting for the other 1300 points of your opponents army)....and that I was just making the point that even then they are STILL out performed by the alternatives?

Chaos Space Marines can make you divert all your resources just to kill 5 terminators worth 150 points. There can be 30-40 other marines mixed between TEQs and MEQs you also have to deal with. This is NOT good.

I use a tervigon at 1500, and 2 between 1500-2000. I like them for the reasons people are talking about. But my point is that you cannot solely rely on them because there is far too many variables that have to go with them to get them to be even remotely effective (and as seen, less effective than hormagaunts/raveners [as well as others I didn't even mention] who do not require everything to go perfectly).

You can pull off wins against random players with 3 at 1500, but any half decent list (Imperial Guard and Space Wolves for obvious reasons, Blood Angels with FNP, Chaos with solid infantry and cheap termies, Orks with Nobs, etc) will annihilate it.

Challenge: Show me an actual list that handles the OP's post. Remember, you have 42 T6 3+ saves to work through, and nearly all are in cover. Even if you list tailor against this, you will get destroyed by a mech list (All foot BA obvious answer is obvious, but gets torn apart by tank shocks).

@MongooseDog: The list is just fine. It is the best way to run tyranids, and lists of the same composition have been topping tournaments lately. No one has the firepower to stop this thing. The more shooting they have, the better you do when you crash into them.

Oh I love this game, you know the one where I waste my time making a list, and then in turn you say "But against that list I would just do this!" and then I would go "No, because I would do this!" and then it would go back and forth wasting even more time. Is that the one?

I've made my points, backed with math and more importantly - real situations that can actually happen (if you dont think so, please go ahead and point it out). Whether people want to take these things into account is their decision.

(this is where you say "See? I knew you couldnt" )

EDIT: I also have laugh at the foot blood angels thing. I run jump pack angels (not spam, but instead with support in the backfield) and they do well exactly BECAUSE people run too much spam in their lists (this one included). They cant handle infantry because they bought too much anti tank or close combat units that cant handle dedicated assault troops (especially fast ones they cant shoot). Again with the mythical tanks that somehow survive and manage to tank shock all the units away...totally unrealistic expectations, just like with tervigons.

I have to side with Night Lords on this, even though I argued against his first post. See, I like two tervigons in 1500, but not because I think they can solve all your anti-infantry needs. They can't. The list I've had success with also has a brood of super-gargoyles and a squad of supergaunts. Those kill infantry. The free termagants just let me get the charge: the enemy crushes the front line, made of termagants, then my second line, made of the real fighters, crushes the enemy.

So yeah, take 2 tervigons (and the 10-20 termagants that let you take 1-2 as troops) in 1500. That leaves you about 1000 points to spend on other stuff. Spend maybe 2/3 of that on anti-tank and 1/3 on anti-infantry, and you'll be fine. But don't think of the tervigons as anti-anything. They're SUPPORT units.

This list the OP posted wins by not losing.

Foot BA (not mech) means jump packs, for the record.

Bring your gargoyles, people will thank you for their wins.

@Night lords: Your only point was that it is hard to kill Terminators. Every army has that problem. This list has tools to deal with them (hint: avoid combat with them, tarpit them with one unit at a time if you must).

Hesperus wrote:I have to side with Night Lords on this, even though I argued against his first post. See, I like two tervigons in 1500, but not because I think they can solve all your anti-infantry needs. They can't. The list I've had success with also has a brood of super-gargoyles and a squad of supergaunts. Those kill infantry. The free termagants just let me get the charge: the enemy crushes the front line, made of termagants, then my second line, made of the real fighters, crushes the enemy.

So yeah, take 2 tervigons (and the 10-20 termagants that let you take 1-2 as troops) in 1500. That leaves you about 1000 points to spend on other stuff. Spend maybe 2/3 of that on anti-tank and 1/3 on anti-infantry, and you'll be fine. But don't think of the tervigons as anti-anything. They're SUPPORT units.

I think both Night Lords, Hesperus, and Fearspect make good points, so I think I will just play test with 3 tervigons and 2 tervigons with some more anti-infantry, especially CC units. I think thats the only way I'll find what I have more success with. Any thoughts on taking stealers with this list like Hesperus suggested?

Night Lords wrote:I love how people twist things on here. The ridiculous above post is an example.

Termagaunts as the sole source of anti infantry are not good. They need other units to compliment them. Yes, sending 30 termagaunts to not even kill a single squad of terminators is terrible. Why? Because that's likely your entire termagaunt force. You people are talking as if tervigons supply an unlimited amount ("You can just send more in next turn")- they dont. By turn 2 or 3 theyll be out.

iam not saying you should use termagaunts as your sole anti infantry. Tyranids are all about synergy and you need other units to back them up against the heavy close combat units (trygon). Mongoosedog's list can use the termagaunts as a speedbump and after that he got 3 tervigons (furious charge and toxin sacs) and 2 tyrannofexes to countercharge.

Night Lords wrote:
Sometimes you get unlucky and it's turn 1. With 3 tervigons it will happen at different times, and it is VERY possible to lose 2/3 on the first turn! Ive rolled a magical 3,3,1 on first turn. By rolling below average with Tervigons you are essentially crippling yourself if it is your sole source, much more than the benefit of rolling above average. In a tournament setting with 3-4 rounds, you are going to roll terrible at some point, and getting annihilated in only one game will leave you well below the top scores.

"But Night Lords, your example was great...not poor!!"...did you not read the part where they were completely unrealistic conditions in an isolated situation (ie. Not accounting for the other 1300 points of your opponents army)....and that I was just making the point that even then they are STILL out performed by the alternatives?

Chaos Space Marines can make you divert all your resources just to kill 5 terminators worth 150 points. There can be 30-40 other marines mixed between TEQs and MEQs you also have to deal with. This is NOT good.

Yes Night lord.....sumtimes the tervigons will get unlucky..maybe it has sumthing to do with all the dice where trowing. makes it all to random..dont like it either. If you say stuf like this then I can say: "well, if those bloodangel terminators lose their landraider...and the will get shot a lot....then my guants can finish them off!!!!"

When you got 3 tervigons and 2 tyrannofexes then you got 5 cluster spines to soften up that infantry.
If the enemy has a lot of anti infantry units then your gaunts are save within the tervigon. Gargoyles, hormagaunts and raveners will get shot to pieces. feel no pain MC's are harder to take down with an 1500point army.
Nob bikers have to take on a lot of cluster spines, hiveguard shooting and rupture cannon shots before the can attack.
chaos terminators dont have feel no pain and 30 termagaunts can kill about 5 when the shoot and charge. thats not bad.

Night Lords wrote:
I use a tervigon at 1500, and 2 between 1500-2000. I like them for the reasons people are talking about. But my point is that you cannot solely rely on them because there is far too many variables that have to go with them to get them to be even remotely effective (and as seen, less effective than hormagaunts/raveners [as well as others I didn't even mention] who do not require everything to go perfectly).

You can pull off wins against random players with 3 at 1500, but any half decent list (Imperial Guard and Space Wolves for obvious reasons, Blood Angels with FNP, Chaos with solid infantry and cheap termies, Orks with Nobs, etc) will annihilate it.

well if you pick a bunch of hormagaunts, gargoyles and raveners instead......then you will lose more. Dont get me wrong....My list also got 2 tervigons and not 3 but I like the fact that i can walk across the board with 5 MC's with a few feel no pain and not lose a single gaunt and then spawn them right in front of the enemy.

Fearspect wrote:This list the OP posted wins by not losing.

Foot BA (not mech) means jump packs, for the record.

Bring your gargoyles, people will thank you for their wins.

@Night lords: Your only point was that it is hard to kill Terminators. Every army has that problem. This list has tools to deal with them (hint: avoid combat with them, tarpit them with one unit at a time if you must).

Wins by not losing = draw. If anyone thinks that this list is impossible to table, you are gravely mistaken.

Gargoyles are arguably the best unit in the entire codex. That statement is a joke right?

Every army doesnt have to divert all their resources just to kill a couple of terminators is the point.

MongooseDog wrote:I think both Night Lords, Hesperus, and Fearspect make good points, so I think I will just play test with 3 tervigons and 2 tervigons with some more anti-infantry, especially CC units. I think thats the only way I'll find what I have more success with. Any thoughts on taking stealers with this list like Hesperus suggested?

Genestealers are really really flimsy with that 5+ save. With the 8 in your squad youll get 24 attacks, 16 hits, and less than 3 rends and ~5 other wounds. Then theyll get butchered on the hits back. I think if you go stealers youve really got to take a load of them, either through other squads or just adding more to existing squads. I like them, but theyre tough to just throw into a list randomly (theyre also expensive).

shogun wrote:iam not saying you should use termagaunts as your sole anti infantry. Tyranids are all about synergy and you need other units to back them up against the heavy close combat units (trygon). Mongoosedog's list can use the termagaunts as a speedbump and after that he got 3 tervigons (furious charge and toxin sacs) and 2 tyrannofexes to countercharge.

So then we agree (though I do not agree about Tervigons and their wopping 3 attacks with no rerolls to hit doing much).

shogun wrote:Yes Night lord.....sumtimes the tervigons will get unlucky..maybe it has sumthing to do with all the dice where trowing. makes it all to random..dont like it either. If you say stuf like this then I can say: "well, if those bloodangel terminators lose their landraider...and the will get shot a lot....then my guants can finish them off!!!!"

Except if the blood angels termies roll poorly they still have 1300 points that are very capable with dealing with everything. The problem with tervigons is that they roll so few dice that it is very easy to roll below average (rolling doubles on the spawning roll). Like I said, rolling poorly is much worse than rolling well is good.

shogun wrote:When you got 3 tervigons and 2 tyrannofexes then you got 5 cluster spines to soften up that infantry.
If the enemy has a lot of anti infantry units then your gaunts are save within the tervigon. Gargoyles, hormagaunts and raveners will get shot to pieces. feel no pain MC's are harder to take down with an 1500point army.
Nob bikers have to take on a lot of cluster spines, hiveguard shooting and rupture cannon shots before the can attack.
chaos terminators dont have feel no pain and 30 termagaunts can kill about 5 when the shoot and charge. thats not bad.

Cluster spines are a nice bonus, nothing more. Just like Tervigon spam, it is not meant to be a reliable source of anti infantry.

How will gargoyles/horms get shot to pieces but the Tervigons wont? Tyranids MCs are a measly T6 getting wounded on 2s by almost all long range fire. Aside from blasts which are not a problem if you spread your swarm units out (especially gargoyles who will give MCs cover), almost all of the long range weapons are anti tank/MC.

shogun wrote:well if you pick a bunch of hormagaunts, gargoyles and raveners instead......then you will lose more. Dont get me wrong....My list also got 2 tervigons and not 3 but I like the fact that i can walk across the board with 5 MC's with a few feel no pain and not lose a single gaunt and then spawn them right in front of the enemy.

Let's see, during that 2 rounds of shooting that the Tyranids have to endure...Im sure that no Tervigons will go down (especially since theyre the only real target). Yep, lets all continue with the unreal expectations and assume that the enemy will welcome you with open arms.

yes, its not enough to use 3 tervigons to kill the rest of the blood angels army besides those terminators. but you can still pick trygons, hivegaurd and other goodies. when you charge with 3 tervigaunts and two tyrannofexes..you can take down a lot of units, but the have to stick together! 5 MC's that got 4 attacks eah will get you 20 attacks, hit with 10, wound with 8 and take down 6 terminators.

when you got 5 MC's with a 18 inch S5 large template clusterspines.... You got a reliable anti infantry weapon! Just a bonus....pfff

in my list I got:

Prime attached to two venomthropes.
2 tervigons (catalyst/adrenalglance/toxinsacs)
1 tyrannofex
2 trygons

tervigons will use catalyst on the trygons and Prime with venomtrope will stay behind the big MC's to grant them a 5+ coversave.

If you want to take down a trygon/tervigon you will need:

18 lascannons/meltaguns, hitting with 12(bs4) wound with 10 and after that 5+ coversave you got about 6 wounds and a kill.

plasmaguns need to wound on a 3+ and against most other weapons he got a feel no pain save (missle launchers).

how many 1500 points armies have that amount of firepower and still pick a good close combat unit?

besides, raveners/gargoyels and hormagaunts will go down with ALL weapons and the will...

@MongooseDog

This is the exact list Shep used to win the Sprue Posse RTT, isn't it? If you want a batrep of this exact list in action, winning a small RTT in your area to boot, check out Chaos Wins!.

Honestly wondering if you already read it though or if you aren't Shep using an alt account

Anyway, You should alwais take Catalyst on Tervigons.
Onslaught is a good bonus but without Catalyst all yours Termagants willl be nuked down without any difficulty.

I like the idea of FnP on high point units that need it, but using it on gaunts? When you should get about 70-80 on avergae in a game? When if they absolutely have to survive they can go to ground in some cover? That is a waste imo.

In a list like this, I think onslaught is a subtely better choice then catalyst. Once you realize t-fexes are not sit back and shoot units and that hive guards 24" range is just not long enough, then onslaught looks a whole lot more appealing.

shogun wrote:
yes, its not enough to use 3 tervigons to kill the rest of the blood angels army besides those terminators. but you can still pick trygons, hivegaurd and other goodies. when you charge with 3 tervigaunts and two tyrannofexes..you can take down a lot of units, but the have to stick together! 5 MC's that got 4 attacks eah will get you 20 attacks, hit with 10, wound with 8 and take down 6 terminators.

when you got 5 MC's with a 18 inch S5 large template clusterspines.... You got a reliable anti infantry weapon! Just a bonus....pfff

in my list I got:

Prime attached to two venomthropes.
2 tervigons (catalyst/adrenalglance/toxinsacs)
1 tyrannofex
2 trygons

tervigons will use catalyst on the trygons and Prime with venomtrope will stay behind the big MC's to grant them a 5+ coversave.

If you want to take down a trygon/tervigon you will need:

18 lascannons/meltaguns, hitting with 12(bs4) wound with 10 and after that 5+ coversave you got about 6 wounds and a kill.

plasmaguns need to wound on a 3+ and against most other weapons he got a feel no pain save (missle launchers).

how many 1500 points armies have that amount of firepower and still pick a good close combat unit?

Why do you keep talking as if this is unbeatable? It's not or else everyone would be running it.

As for what army can do that...i dont know, maybe Chaos, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and ofcourse IG.

10 CSM attacking a terivigon:

Shooting:

Meltas - 2- 1.38 - 1.12 wounds
Pistols - 8 - 5.36 - 0.3 wounds

Assault:

Regular Marines - 27 - 18 - 3 - 1 wound
Fist - 3 - 2 - 1.68 wounds

Tervigon kills one, loses combat by 2, adding another 0.66.

Total: 4.7 wounds

4.7 wounds just by themselves. Next turn it dies killing a grand total of 2 space marines. I hope you didnt take any wounds during those two shooting phases you had to walk through or you wont even last that long.

Venomthropes...what an awful choice. Instant killed first turn and takes away a hive guard slot.

shogun wrote:besides, raveners/gargoyels and hormagaunts will go down with ALL weapons and the will...

I quoted this seperately just because of how ridiculous it is. So my 6 point hormagaunt (1 out of the 20 in a squad) can get lascannoned so they suck? Do you know why theyre 6 points? Because they were intended to die. That's the point. Some will die.

Again, it's amazing how in this mythical game Tervigons are invincible and will always produce amazing amounts of gaunts (making it right into the enemy deployment zone), whereas all the hormagaunts will get annihilated.

You are stuck in a 4th edition mentality if you think swarm units are poor.

I might point out that you don't have that many troops, even with three Tervigons. I like hive tyrants better than tervies, but that's just me.

Also, why are you taking three tyrannofexes? You can three trygon primes, which are way better points wise.

Night Lords wrote: Why do you keep talking as if this is unbeatable? It's not or else everyone would be running it.

As for what army can do that...i dont know, maybe Chaos, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and ofcourse IG.

10 CSM attacking a terivigon:
Shooting:
Meltas - 2- 1.38 - 1.12 wounds
Pistols - 8 - 5.36 - 0.3 wounds

Assault:
Regular Marines - 27 - 18 - 3 - 1 wound
Fist - 3 - 2 - 1.68 wounds

Tervigon kills one, loses combat by 2, adding another 0.66.

Total: 4.7 wounds

4.7 wounds just by themselves. Next turn it dies killing a grand total of 2 space marines. I hope you didnt take any wounds during those two shooting phases you had to walk through or you wont even last that long.

Venomthropes...what an awful choice. Instant killed first turn and takes away a hive guard slot.

Its not unbeatable but a very good armylist against 1500 point armies because the cannot bring enough guns to bring down all those MC's. And everyone is running tervigons and dont pick hormagaunts/gargoyles and i havent seen a list with raveners yet.

I dont think a tervigon should fear chaos marines. Tervigons can spawn gaunts and let them assault within 18 inch (tarpit), chaos marines can only assault within 12 inch. Tervigons can give each other feel no pain and the venomtrope gives them a 5+ coversave and if the chaos marines assault the have to make a dangerous terrain test.

10 CSM attacking a terivigon with feel no pain and she's within 6 inch of venomtrope:
Shooting:
Meltas - 2- 1.38 - 1.12 wounds, 5+ coversave: 0,7 wound
Pistols - 8 - 5.36 - 0.3 wounds, 5+ coversave: 0,1 wound, feel no pain save: 0,05 wound.

Assault:
Regular Marines (at least one will die because of dangerous terraintest)- 24 - 16 - 2,7 wounds, 0,9 wounds, after feel no painsave: 0,45 wounds
Fist - 3 - 2 - 1.68 wounds

That makes: 2,8 wounds
Tervigon: hits with 1,5 and will get 1 or 2 kills.

at the tyranid turn she makes about 10 gaunts: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 7,5 wounds (reroll with toxinsacs), and that will make 2,5 dead marines
at this point the chaos marines got only 5 marines with one powerfist left. thats 8 normal attacks and 2 powerfist attacks. thats not even enough to kill that tervigon and after that tervigon hits the will lose close combat.


Venomthropes will not die instant. Why do you think I attach a Warrior Prime? He takes the first S8 shot and after that the all got a 4+ coversave because the are standing behind a bunch of MC's. If the enemy is shooting with more then 3 S8 shots to kill one venomthrope the are free to do so because that means the are not shooting my MC's.

Night Lords wrote:
I quoted this seperately just because of how ridiculous it is. So my 6 point hormagaunt (1 out of the 20 in a squad) can get lascannoned so they suck? Do you know why theyre 6 points? Because they were intended to die. That's the point. Some will die.

Again, it's amazing how in this mythical game Tervigons are invincible and will always produce amazing amounts of gaunts (making it right into the enemy deployment zone), whereas all the hormagaunts will get annihilated.

You are stuck in a 4th edition mentality if you think swarm units are poor.

No your enemy will not shoot with their lascannon at a hormagaunt. the will shoot with lasguns,bolters, heavybolters, blast templates, shuriken thingies etc. These anti infantry weapons are almost useless against my feel no pain tervigons/MC's. But if you take hormagaunts and gargoyles because you want them to die.....well thats up to you

You think my list will suck against chaos, blood angels, IG and spacewolf (JOWW are good against any tyranid list, nothing you can do about it...)? whats does your armylist look like? Let me see how you deal with these armies when you got hormagaunts and gargoyles. You are stuck in a 3th edition mentality if you advice other players to pick gargoyles.

Ahh there it is again. The mythical perfect scenario.

Honestly, the fact you think Gargoyles are poor (again, possibly the best option in the entire army) is laughable at best and it says a lot about your credibility. Same thing with hormagaunts.

The original poster can decide for himself like he said he would. He'll see when he plays that things do not work out perfectly everytime, and that this list can leave you hanging dry when your opponent starts taking out key units.

Night Lords wrote:Ahh there it is again. The mythical perfect scenario.

Honestly, the fact you think Gargoyles are poor (again, possibly the best option in the entire army) is laughable at best and it says a lot about your credibility. Same thing with hormagaunts.

The original poster can decide for himself like he said he would. He'll see when he plays that things do not work out perfectly everytime, and that this list can leave you hanging dry when your opponent starts taking out key units.

every scenario is different and not always perfect, but i think my list has a good strategy and I explained this.

Your just saying: Hormagaunts, gargoyles and raveners are better then tervigons and you give no example why the are better. Yes the are better in close combat...but first you have to get there! You just run towards the enemy with these units?

You try to prove that tervigons suck against sum enemy units but what does your armylist look like? what do you bring to the table for a 1500 point list? You havent got key units that the enemy can take out? Whats your strategy with your swarm?

Honestly, the fact you think Gargoyles are great (even compared to tervigons with gaunts!) is laughable at best and it says a lot about your credibility. Same thing with hormagaunts.