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Does a chapter stand much of a chance turning renegade but still fighting chaos? Normally CSM use the EOT or the maelstrom to hide in so this doesn't leave them with a great hiding place.

The idea is that the chapter is betrayed by the imperium and only the veterans escape. After this they just do what they can for imperial citizens although their numbers are quickly dropping.

Would they realistically be able to avoid the imperium without being forced to use chaos?

Thanks for looking
4M2A

It would be difficult.
they would have no support
no way of reliably replacing losses
no way of replacing lost armour or tanks or ships
difficult but possible if they managed to set-up shop in a hard to reach part of the galaxy or something then yeah they could do it
but the Inquisition would be after them constantly

There have been stories published on the "Soul Drinkers" where they are still loyal to the tenants of the imperium but are branded as renegades due to mutation.
They became a fleet based chapter and at one point used a space hulk as their main base, the warp instability of these things made it hard to track as well.

There are a few self serving pirate marines around as well. The "Tyrant of Budab" with his Red Corsairs is a key army.

Iron Warriors have always appeared to be a main chaos army but in the fluff written about them they pretty much rely on technology, they are more bitter and spiteful than most groups but no obvious chaos god worshipers.

well look at the supposviely non chaos soul drinkers. they betrayed the imperium, kinda, then tried fighting for the imperium then the crimson fists and imperial fists wiped their chapter. i'd say no, renegade "good guys" don't work, but why bother worrying about keeping it realistic to the fluff if your making up a chapter?

Is it possilbe for the Imperium to piss off a Chapter Master and make him go Rogue?

Absolutely, but if they're fighting Chaos and helping Imperials, they're just a pissed off Chapter doing what they're supposed to do, not Renegade.

If they were to turn against the Imperium, making land grabs and carving out their own little kingdom, the Imperium would eventually send enough force to obliterate them. The Chapter in question would either join Chaos or be destroyed as an effective militray unit. 1 Chapter vs. 999+, Navy and Guard doesn't stand very good odds without some Chaos intervention.

To give a better idea of the situatuion i'll give a brief overview of the idea for the chapter.

The chapter is quite a young chapter, situated close to the edge of imperial space and is very loyal to the Emperor. While the Chapter master and veterans are fighting Orks in a nearby area a chaos cult is detected on their planet. A nearby Ecclesiarchy fleet attempts to purge the planet, when the remaining SM request that they deal with the cult the inquisitor who has been investigating the cult for a long time refuses. When the marines attempt to remove innocent humans from the planet they are attacked. By the time the Chapter master returns the planet is ruined and most of the marins are dead. Taking the marines he could get he flees and the Ecclesiarchy fleet, too busy capturing the last human doesn't follow.

Now the chapter are strongly opposed to the imperium, but still follow the Emperor's beliefs as much as they can. They attack imperial forces when they belief they are helping the humans. They have a strong hate for the inqusition who they see as corrupt. Their main plan is to carry on fighting until they are entirely wiped out.

The main tactic before going rogue was hitting fast then leaving, so they carry that on now.

As they are now much smaller and fleet based would they be easy for the imperium to track?

Most fleet bound chapters learn tricks to stop them being followed also since they aren't controlled by the
Imperium technically thAdeptus Mechanicus could strike bargains with them for their services in return for repairs/maintnence or replacing lost vehicles or armour.

As i said before possible but difficult and as others have said the Soul Drinkers had problems with supply and recruitment and eventually were hunted to extinction by other chapters... but i'm sure that won't happen to you

I might make a suggestion. Other, 'loyalist' chapters have squabbles, disputes, and rivalries within the context of the Imperium. Your Chapter could still be a loyalist chapter, just not on good terms with the Ecclesiarchy. (And under constant suspicion from the Inquisition.)

If your fluff is the most important part, then I would consider that. If, on the other hand, what is really driving your inspirational juices is the idea of a Space Marine chapter not loyal to either the Imperium or to Chaos, then I would suggest this: other backing. A Space Marine chapter (or hell, even a full company) would be a grand prize for any society to bring into it's ranks. What makes it hard to go renegade is that the forces pursuing you have backing, and you don't. The solution is to find backing. Possibilities:

1. A Space Marine chapter fights against the Inquisition and is branded heretics. They are approached by Tau forces who give them the 'greater good' spiel. The chapter goes on the run, fighting against Imperial forces wherever they perceive injustices being done. They are convertly aided by the Tau, who resupply them, in what has become a relationship of mutual aid (if not complete trust).

2. A space marine chapter goes on the renegade. Turning to 'counter piracy' these marines raid the sites of recent battles in order to scavenge the dead members of loyal Imperial forces, in order to pursue their own agenda. Armed with their own battle-barges, these marines are able to raid pirate space, using the same stellar topography that the pirates do in order to hide themselves from the pursuing Imperial forces.

3. Pursued by the Inquisition for their beliefs that 'might makes right', a chapter finds themselves cut off from aid. They are approached by a group of Dark Eldar, who offer to help the chapter hide from the Imperial forces, as well as supplying them with stolen weapons and supplies, in exchange for the chapter trading them live slaves. Most citizens of Imperial backwater planets wouldn't know one chapter from another, enabling the marines to collect hundreds of slaves without a shot fired.

4. The Librarians of a particular chapter, studying forbidden Eldar lore, come to see the Eldar's view of things more closely. With their astonishing foresight, they predict every failure their chapter makes, one after the other, eventually leading an uprising against their own leaders. Taking command of the chapter, they go into service of the Eldar. They wouldn't be fully trusted by the Eldar, but after proving their loyalty in a number of battles, the aliens come to rely on the marines as a force loyal to them, or at least conveniently manipulated...

5. A space marine chapter goes into business for themselves. Having had contact with many rogue traders over the years, the chapter knows how and where to make contact with dozens of smaller xenos races, always trading stolen goods for new supplies, staying one step ahead of the Imperium by going deep into enemy space. With what little free time they have, they pursue their own agenda, be it a grudge or some idealistic dream.

Just suggestions.

Those are good suggestions

They are some great ideas Jimsolo. I personaly like 1,2 and 5 most.

Does this new idea make sense. After fleeing the Ecclesiarchy they travel towars the edge of imperial space. Over the long journey the chapter's chaplains begin to alter their teachings to follow what they believe is the Emperor real teachings. This coupled with their deperation at lack of resources leads them to becoming more practical and discarding superstitions, this is very evident in their quickly changing view on technology.

The chapter gets close to the boundary of free space, but in a last attempt to stop them imperial forces severely damage their fleet leaving many ships to drift through space. After weeks of drifting the space marines have given up on the idea of surving and spend the last of their time reading imperial documents. The marines are shocked when a scouting Tau fleet makes contact.

After negotiations the marines agree to build a small empire outside known space in exchange for tau support. This empire is to ally with the greater good.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Soul_Drinkers

An actual renegade, Chaos Hating SM chapter. As described by GW itself.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Soul_Drinkers

An actual renegade, Chaos Hating SM chapter. As described by GW itself.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Soul_Drinkers

An actual renegade, Chaos Hating SM chapter. As described by GW itself.

It's also possible for them to be backed by a powerful rogue trader (kind of like a private bodyguard service... on crack), or by a radical Inquisitor (the inquisition itself can't be considered corrupt, since it's comprised of indivials with different ideologies).

From what I understand not all of the Fallen turned to chaos. Some just went AWOL.

Your idea seems to be sound. I would make the following suggestions: The Imperial teachings about xenos species are there for a reason. I wouldn't have them trust the Tau too much. If I were the one writing it, I would have both sides be very distrustful of one another. The marines do work for the Tau, for example, providing distractions, hitting enemy supply lines, etc. In exchange, the Tau keep them supplied, so that the marines can conduct their own business (which sounds like a one-chapter war against the Ecclesiarchy.)

It sounds good though. I like the direction you're taking.

Yeah the plan is that they run a distinctly seperate empires but that they Tau support their activities. Although they are very supspicious of the Tau they do see some similarities (the idea of advancing the race) and are very desperate for help.

They would spend most of the time trying to defend their own area from pirates and undermining the Ecclesiarchy, and encouraging humans to see what thy believe is the Emperors teachings.

I have no inherrant problems with the idea, but just a few minor fluff squabbles:

1) Having problems with the inquisition is NOT the same thing as having problems with the Imperium. Plenty of SM chapters outright HATE the inquisition and are still able to be loyalist. The inquisitions ideologies, and indeed those of the Imperium itself, are fractured to the point of not being recognizable as a single entity. I think you need more than "An inquisitor did something mean and so now we are renegades", as if you chapter had any honor and sense it would still work with humanity. If they just left because "OMG THAT INQUISITOR IS SO MEAN!!!" than they aren't noble hero's, they are weak willed traitors who forsook their oaths at the first sign of difficulty, and I know that isn't what you want. To really be a "renegade but a good guy" chapter you really need to be declared excommunicatas so that the Imperium refuses to work with you.

2) As was mentioned, Xeno hate exists for a reason. In the past all of humanities Xeno allies have turned on them, killing and enslaving them. Humanity fears Xeno races due to 15k years of experience telling them that you cannot trust the Xeno.

Basically, don't make your chapter Star Trek: The Space Marine Generation.

3) If you are going to be a renegade faction incorporate the difficulty of that into your fluff. Were are you getting supplies? Resting and refitting? Getting new recruits? Things should not be fine and dandy. The main reason most renegades ally with chaos is they have to choice, the temptations just become too great. They are alone, underequipped and undermanned in a very dangerous galaxy. Incorporate those tempations, and yes even some losses, into your fluff.

So in conclusion:
In order to not just look like pansies your SM need better reasons than "That one inquisitor was mean". They should stand by their oaths to the end, which means excommunicatus, or something else that makes it IMPOSSIBLE for them to work with the imperium. Don't get too friendly with Xenos, it is foolish. And don't gloss over their trials and travails.

To make a good story the heroes need to either a) make bad decisions and deal with the consequences or b) make good hard decisions that have heavy consequences. If you just make your guys make good decisions and everything is still awesome, you have a weak story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, one last thing I noticed.

They are defending their own little empire against pirates and the Imperium?

How exactly are 1000 or less men with no support from the Imperial Navy or Ad-Mech defending ANYTHING against the Imperium of Man? The Space Marines are special forces, not a traditional military. They pop in, accomplish an objective, and pop out before the enemy can bring their forces to bear. The crew typical naval FRIGATE, a small support vessal, outnumbers their entire chapter 30:1. There is a reason renegade marines are fleet based and don't hold terratory, they have no way of defending it. Marines suck at defending. Even a "small" guard army of sisters of battle convent is capable of CRUSHING a single stationary marine chapter.

If you really want to have "territory" (which is pushing it, you don't need to be another ultra-marines clone) you need better justification.

Sorry, this might be coming across as harsh. I like your idea, but it also risks devolving into a mary sue power fantasy along the lines of "The imperium is to mean, but we are awesome and good, and make friends and allies because we aren't stupid like the imperium, and no one in our chapter has ever fallen to chaos, and have our own empire and cool ships, and our chapter master is so cool and was a blood angel but doesn't have the red thirst and has purple spikey hair and a cloud buster and one viololet eye and one red one and SPARKLES IN THE SUN!!!" (Yes I know you didn't say anything like that last part)

Beware the mary sue story, it weakens the hero. Overcoming trials, trevails, and ones own bad decisions are faults are the way to make a truly epic hero, not by making him/her "totally awesome!!1!"

Ok thanks for the input.

I will try and clear up the points you mentioned.
1.It's the ecclesiarchy they have a problem with not the inquisition. When other chapters who had issues with the them got destroyed, the same thing happened here but they managed to ecape.

2. They do not trust the Tau at all but they have the opportunity to use them for their own benefit. Effectively they see it as just using the Tau for their own ends. They don't like working together but they chaptermaster wants to do as much damage before the chapter is wiped out.

3. The Tau supply ammo and repair anything the chapter can't. As for getting recruits, they don't plan on it. After loosing a large amount of their chapter and their homeworld they are just going keep fighting until they are all destroyed. They have also lost some marines due to chaos corruption. They have accepted they aren't going to last long.

4. As for territory its not really anything significant. Holding a small moon is acceptable I think. I would imagine that a small number of SM would be a target for any large pirate fleets.

Another avenue for you to consider is writing the fluff up as they are in fact wiped out. Make your battles about the times between their annihliation and whatever betrayal they suffered.

Maybe they were wiped out in the last black crusade, aiding in the defense of the Cadian Gate.

You can consider the best of both worlds: Relictors. Declared excomminucate tratoris for wanting to use chaos against itself, they still fight the good fight, all while being chased down by the Imperium and hated by Chaos for trying to bind it to their will.

Ah good idea Daedalus but I have already began painting them and they are red and cream coloured.

Well there is a chapter of marines that fights evry body chaos and imperium alike. it is one of the blood angels sucsesors.